Mike Huckabee, Are you KIDDING me?! Options

[Divergent Realit...]

OK< this hopefully ties in more with the original thought of this thread, being crazy religious zealots. I work with a woman who claims to be a Christian......yet she seems to exhibit some highly UNChristian values. For one, she is GREEDY. All she ever talks about is getting stuff for free. Example: the other day I was talking to a co-worker about getting gift cards from my Best Buy Reward Zone account, and she butts in saying, "Oh, is that my Christmas present?" This lady does this shit all the time. Just yesterday, in fact, a vendor came and offered to take ONE of us to lunch....Christian lady butted in and invited herself along (knowing the vendor would pay). She bought the highest priced thing on the menu. She talks about having god-parents for her children for the sole purpose of that person providing her children with material possessions. My point is that some of the most hard-core Bible-thumping people can be the most hypocritical. Right-wing Republicans are also a good example.

no no.

thats not greed. its god's reward to her.

[jonathan83]

OK< this hopefully ties in more with the original thought of this thread, being crazy religious zealots. I work with a woman who claims to be a Christian......yet she seems to exhibit some highly UNChristian values. For one, she is GREEDY. All she ever talks about is getting stuff for free. Example: the other day I was talking to a co-worker about getting gift cards from my Best Buy Reward Zone account, and she butts in saying, "Oh, is that my Christmas present?" This lady does this shit all the time. Just yesterday, in fact, a vendor came and offered to take ONE of us to lunch....Christian lady butted in and invited herself along (knowing the vendor would pay). She bought the highest priced thing on the menu. She talks about having god-parents for her children for the sole purpose of that person providing her children with material possessions. My point is that some of the most hard-core Bible-thumping people can be the most hypocritical. Right-wing Republicans are also a good example.

yeah that's a shame, but christians believe that you can still be a bad person (since all humans are "bad") and still go to heaven. just as long as you believe jesus was the son of god and died for your sins. of course people take advantage of this and just sin and repent later that day..but then one has to wonder if that person is truly a christian. christians are bad at being hypocritical, but i think every religion has this problem.

[blaarg]

that's what faith is, knowing and believing, not thinking. now you know. it sounds like either 1. you had a bad experience with christians as a little boy and got all butt hurt or 2. you're jealous of people who actually have a purpose to live.

A couple of things...

The same could be said about you having a bad experience with atheists and (using your words) "got all butt hurt." This may or may not be valid, but regardless it is irrelevant. I don't think that personal attacks add anything to a conversation/discussion.

Also, on the second part: "you're jealous of people who actually have a purpose to live." For one, if you believe that there is a god who controls everything and gives you that purpose, wouldn't they also be giving him a purpose as well? Or if you think that your god was an initial mover and isn't directly coordinating all your actions, then wouldn't it be you (more directly your free will) giving yourself the purpose to live, in that case, why couldn't he (and his free will) give himself a purpose to live?

I don't see why you need to believe in god/be religious to have a purpose for living. Quite the contrary, I think if you are atheist and only think that you have this time on Earth to do something wouldn't it give you more of a purpose to live (because you only get one shot to do something).

[Psykopath]

yeah that's a shame, but christians believe that you can still be a bad person (since all humans are "bad") and still go to heaven. just as long as you believe jesus was the son of god and died for your sins. of course people take advantage of this and just sin and repent later that day..but then one has to wonder if that person is truly a christian. christians are bad at being hypocritical, but i think every religion has this problem.

One of the most hypocritical aspects of any religion...period.

I'm sure Jesus Christ himself would disagree with such BS.
Living a "good" life (varying shades of good, depending on so many variables...but that discussion shall be saved for another thread) requires more than just accepting one statement as personal fact.

[jonathan83]

A couple of things...

The same could be said about you having a bad experience with atheists and (using your words) "got all butt hurt." This may or may not be valid, but regardless it is irrelevant. I don't think that personal attacks add anything to a conversation/discussion.

Also, on the second part: "you're jealous of people who actually have a purpose to live." For one, if you believe that there is a god who controls everything and gives you that purpose, wouldn't they also be giving him a purpose as well? Or if you think that your god was an initial mover and isn't directly coordinating all your actions, then wouldn't it be you (more directly your free will) giving yourself the purpose to live, in that case, why couldn't he (and his free will) give himself a purpose to live?

I don't see why you need to believe in god/be religious to have a purpose for living. Quite the contrary, I think if you are atheist and only think that you have this time on Earth to do something wouldn't it give you more of a purpose to live (because you only get one shot to do something).

actually that was only directed at billy, not anyone else. he's just being a troll as usual.

[jonathan83]

One of the most hypocritical aspects of any religion...period.

I'm sure Jesus Christ himself would disagree with such BS.

not really. of course he would WANT people to live better..because he said so. but he also told a murderer (on the cross next to him) that he would go to heaven, because he asked jesus to save him and bc he believed.
we are supposed to "be more like jesus" etc, but "good works" does NOT get you to heaven, according to christianity. other religions require good works, but christianity doesn't.

Living a "good" life (varying shades of good, depending on so many variables...but that discussion shall be saved for another thread) requires more than just accepting one statement as personal fact.

yes, you're right. but, even if a person is the kindest person in the world, but doesn't accept jesus, that still won't get them to heaven.

This post has been edited by jonathan83: Nov 16 2007, 11:34 PM

[Psykopath]

not really. of course he would WANT people to live better..because he said so. but he also told a murderer (on the cross next to him) that he would go to heaven, because he asked jesus to save him and bc he believed.
we are supposed to "be more like jesus" etc, but "good works" does NOT get you to heaven, according to christianity. other religions require good works, but christianity doesn't.
yes, you're right. but, even if a person is the kindest person in the world, but doesn't accept jesus, that still won't get them to heaven.

From what you're describing, I'm HAPPY I won't be going to a heaven that could very well be populated with the likes of Hitler, Stalin, etc.

I'll enjoy my afterlife, the one I earn during the course of my life.

This post has been edited by Psykopath: Nov 16 2007, 11:39 PM

[jonathan83]

From what you're describing, I'm HAPPY I won't be going to a heaven that could very well be populated with the likes of Hitler, Stalin, etc.

I'll enjoy my afterlife, the one I earn during the course of my life.

hey, if hitler truly asked god for forgiveness...that's between him and god. nobody knows but them. and hey, i could be wrong. god is the only one who can judge.

[FORSAKENR320]

not really. of course he would WANT people to live better..because he said so. but he also told a murderer (on the cross next to him) that he would go to heaven, because he asked jesus to save him and bc he believed.
we are supposed to "be more like jesus" etc, but "good works" does NOT get you to heaven, according to christianity. other religions require good works, but christianity doesn't.
yes, you're right. but, even if a person is the kindest person in the world, but doesn't accept jesus, that still won't get them to heaven.

i understand what you are saying, and to me it makes sense. i've mentioned on here that i once had a pair of mormons admit that jesus was counter productive to christianity based on the fact that god has heaven as a reward system. "be good, you go to heaven" with jesus "forgiving" everyones sins no matter what they are, as long as you truly repent, what motivation do you have? sure when that criminal was on that cross about to die and jesus forgave him, is that all it should take? 5 seconds of being scared out of your mind, during a time period where you are about to die and OBVIOUSLY can't HELP but regret the choices that put you there.... should that be enough to deem you a good person? aqccording to jesus, yes. according to the rest of the bible, no.

[jonathan83]

should that be enough to deem you a good person? according to jesus, yes. according to the rest of the bible, no.

pretty much, yeah. and since jesus came, he made the new covenant, which pretty much bypasses the rest of the bible.

[Billy]

We've went over this before. Your argument over free will was not good then, and its not good now.

or let me guess, we're all too stupid to understand your point of view....

Hey, same tactic you always use! I like consistency. [unfounded claim -> attacking of character -> some sarcastic smiley] where -> = followed by. Though I do not think everyone on this message board is stupid, I do consider both you and jonathan such. And Will.

And just by the way, your usual pathetic response does not change the fact you assume we have free will.

[Billy]

that's what faith is, knowing and believing, not thinking. now you know. it sounds like either 1. you had a bad experience with christians as a little boy and got all butt hurt or 2. you're jealous of people who actually have a purpose to live. normal atheists aren't as dickish as you.

and actually, i have been to anson...many times. i grew up 20 miles away. i've seen dancing, so you're wrong.

Sigh. There was a time in Anson's history where "no dancin' in Anson" applied. The first dance in Anson actually happened while I lived there. And just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they dislike what it is they disagree with. I just happen to not like you, not your religion. And also, I ask that you respond to blaarg's response to this illwitted post. You're full of all kinds of fallacy.

[Billy]

actually that was only directed at billy, not anyone else. he's just being a troll as usual.

Look at your previous comment. And you say I'm trolling?

I'm being very serious in this thread.

[Billy]

that's what faith is, knowing and believing, not thinking.

Let's analyze this sentence and let me explain to you why I truly believe you are a stupid human being. An intelligent one would reread what he wrote, reread the argument already presented, and would have edited the shit out of this post.

First, "that's what faith is"

followed by

"knowing and believing"

and then

"not thinking."

So putting it all together: "that's what faith is, knowing and believing, not thinking."

Let's look at "knowing and believing" as applied to "faith". The argument I put out there is this:

I wouldn't care if religious people went around saying that they think there is a god, they think their religious book is factual, they think that by following their religion they will be given X [replace X with whatever you can think of that makes you feel good] after death because they followed that religion. That's not what they say. They say they know. But you don't know.

I know you jonathan, you skipped over it, so I'm going to post it again (please read it this time):

I wouldn't care if religious people went around saying that they think there is a god, they think their religious book is factual, they think that by following their religion they will be given X [replace X with whatever you can think of that makes you feel good] after death because they followed that religion. That's not what they say. They say they know. But you don't know.

ONE MORE TIME

I wouldn't care if religious people went around saying that they think there is a god, they think their religious book is factual, they think that by following their religion they will be given X [replace X with whatever you can think of that makes you feel good] after death because they followed that religion. That's not what they say. They say they know. But you don't know.

Did you get it this time, jonathan? Will I have to copy paste again? Can you read what was quoted and understand it? I don't think you can, so here is again:

I wouldn't care if religious people went around saying that they think there is a god, they think their religious book is factual, they think that by following their religion they will be given X [replace X with whatever you can think of that makes you feel good] after death because they followed that religion. That's not what they say. They say they know. But you don't know.

We've had this problem before, where I blatantly and clearly present a (one [1]) point. I only make one. And you completely miss that one [1] (uno) point.

Jonathan, Seth. There is a difference between believing in something, and knowing something. IF you believe, it is because you don't know. Otherwise, it is no longer belief, it's knowledge.

So tell me Jonathan, how is it, you know. Please show me your god. So that I may know as you know.

Second, You did say something that I agree with Jonathan. And this may surprise you, as it has surprised me, but I really, and truly, agree with something you have said.

Ready?

Here it is:

that's what faith is, ... not thinking.

You are rarely wise, Jonathan. Cherish this moment, as you have said something earth shaking.

[Billy]

And in case the above post was too long for you jonathan, I have written a shorter one for you that really emphasizes the point of the above:

So tell me Jonathan, how is it, you know. Please show me your god. So that I may know as you know.

Go.