Do you believe you have Free Will?, a philosophical debate Options

[impala454]

it's not about age...it's about how many times you've gone through all this. it's not a haughty statement...it's about as haughty as saying "hey your hair is black". when I say too early, I'm saying your early on in your cycle though all this. my sister is too, as are many people very important to me.

and quit getting so pissy. if you want to think I am being mean that is on you. the fact that you're not getting what I'm saying is what make me believe you are early on.

I'm far from having it all figured out.

but I have done this a few times I know that much. how else would you explain that going to new places and knowing exactly where I was going and what I was going to see there or encounter? knowing before I go in if shit was going to be positive or negative? how else can you explain recognizing someone you've never met before and them being significantly important to you for the rest of your life? how can you explain never having read something, yet as you read it you know what it is going to say almost word for word?
that's the key difference here in my opinion. yes God has us make our own choices, but in the end there is only one choice to make. that is not free will.

one caveat...I suppose you could explain the daily (really...every day) experiences I have as some sort of ESP thing...but that seems like a way way too far out possibility. I find it much more plausible to think we keep doing it til we get it right (right as in what God wants).

I understand perfectly what you're saying. It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of free will. You obviously have the thought that you've been through "more lives" than the rest of us, and therefore have come to the conclusion that you know what we don't. If that's not "haughty" I dunno what is. Tell me, with your enlightened mind, how going through a past life would mean you have no free will in the next life. Even if it were true (which I think is a crock o shit), all it would mean is you simply have more experiences to draw from, to make better decisions.

your statement:
"yes God has us make our own choices, but in the end there is only one choice to make. that is not free will."
makes absolutely no sense. how would god have us make our own choices, but give us only one choice to make? if there's only one way to go, you never had a choice in the first place! you're getting a little too caught up in your own psycho babble here bud, and not thinking about how simple this really is.

[impala454]

Now put 2 and 2 together...
I've made this argument in the past and I'll make it again, because it's something to do.

There are two things I want to seperate: Having Choices and Making Choices. The first I will talk about in paragraph 1 is Making Choices.

My argument with the computer is that you cannot Make Choices. You do not have the ability to make a choice any more than a computer does, and here's why: You can process information, much like a computer. And then you can make a "decision" on what to do because of that information, much like a computer (in my previous example: output 'A'). But never in that process do you nor the computer Make a Choice (keep reading!). You output based on what you received as an input. Just like a computer. But the differnce between us and a computer is the complexity of the inputs and the fact that we do not know beforehand the output (well, one could argue a computer doesn't know the outputs either until it's time to output), except in very simple situations. Because a computer reacts on situations that are simple, we are able to see that a computer does not have free will. But because our inputs, processes, and decisions are usually not nearly as simple, it is difficult to see that we are much like a computer.

And if a computer does not have free will, then neither do we.

The second is Having Choices. In part of your argument you believe we can Make Choices because we have the ability to process information and make a decision (give an output). I may have to explain why I think this is wrong again, but it's ok, I have all day. The second part of your argument is that we have Free Will because we Have Choices. In the past, I argued why having choices does not mean you have free will. If I gave you a gun in public and told you to shoot me, you would not do it. You have the choice, but because you are intelligent enough to know there are major future consequences to complying, you will never choose to do so.

Having the choice of A, B, and C but only having the ability to choose A does not mean you have free will, if free will is having the ability to choose any A, B, or C.

obviously, I would choose not to shoot someone in cold blood. but the choice was still presented to me. tell me something, what did you do when you chose the white socks instead of the gray socks at wal mart? did God predetermine you to choose white? was there an algorithm in your head that made you pick white, and if you were presented with the choice 10,000,000 more times, you would always choose white??

[cupcake]

I wasn't talking to everyone, I was talking to you. don't lump yourself in with all these people. if you want to take offense to that, that is all on you man. I'm positive there are older souls than mine on here.

to think otherwise would be haughty.

you just don't get what I am saying at all.

it is obvious no one can discuss anything with you. you're always right and anyone who doesn't agree step in step with you is wrong. it doesn't work like that...

do me a favor, go over to military.com and look up a dude on the marine board named ipscone. he's always right too...the war-dodger ran all the good combat marines off with his incessant far right political babble and constantly argumentative style.

your epersonnae is like his son...and that is not a good thing.

I try to make you see what I am saying, but no amount of trying will ever sway. there is zero use in answering any of your questions. I have no time in my life for even more anxiety than I already cope with.

we're done here.

[Testm0nkey]

chossing to not shoot someone in cold blood is not an example of free will. its thousands of years of social responsibility stemming from evolution. its a hardwired response. killers, while most not being technically crazy, are the outliers, exceptions, caused by environmental and family issues that also nearly predetermine anti social behavior
if even our own personalities arent examples of free will what is

[Mommy]

I understand perfectly what you're saying. It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of free will. You obviously have the thought that you've been through "more lives" than the rest of us, and therefore have come to the conclusion that you know what we don't. If that's not "haughty" I dunno what is. Tell me, with your enlightened mind, how going through a past life would mean you have no free will in the next life. Even if it were true (which I think is a crock o shit), all it would mean is you simply have more experiences to draw from, to make better decisions.

your statement:
"yes God has us make our own choices, but in the end there is only one choice to make. that is not free will."
makes absolutely no sense. how would god have us make our own choices, but give us only one choice to make? if there's only one way to go, you never had a choice in the first place! you're getting a little too caught up in your own psycho babble here bud, and not thinking about how simple this really is.

I havent read this whole thread, but I didnt interprate Cupcake saying that he has had multiple lives, but rather a continuous spirit, which is well within the Christian belief system. We were a soul in heaven before we were sent to earth in physical form. Then again, like I said, I havent been reading all of this thread.

[impala454]

it is obvious no one can discuss anything with you. you're always right and anyone who doesn't agree step in step with you is wrong. it doesn't work like that...

I simply questioned your response to me. Which, as far as I know is what a debate/discussion is. If you don't want to debate or discuss topics, why are you on here?

your epersonnae is like his son...and that is not a good thing.

lol "son". gimme a break. oh wait I forgot you're like 10000 years old right? I could care less about my "epersonnae" or what you guys think of it. the vast majority of you don't know me in person at all, save for just meeting briefly a couple times. the bottom line is, I enjoy arguing/debating/discussing, whatever you want to call what we do on here. it makes people think, it makes people question their beliefs, it makes people look shit up instead of talking out of their ass. if you give in to other people, or don't defend your own positions, you never expand your way of thinking or strengthen your beliefs.

I try to make you see what I am saying, but no amount of trying will ever sway.

I didn't realize that we were attempting to sway anyone's beliefs, but simply presenting and debating them.

there is zero use in answering any of your questions.

well then I guess you really are done w/the debate. I'd like to see what happened to a presidential candidate who said something like this in a debate, rather than addressing his opponent's questions.

I have no time in my life for even more anxiety than I already cope with.

Sorry man. Don't let it get to you. It gets a lil fierce on here sometimes and yeah I know more often than not I'm one of the causes. Honestly I don't have anything against any of you, we just happen to disagree on many of the topics discussed. It's really interesting to me, as some occasions I can have a 15 page thread argument with one person, flames all over, and then on some other topic, we'll completely agree.

[impala454]

chossing to not shoot someone in cold blood is not an example of free will. its thousands of years of social responsibility stemming from evolution. its a hardwired response. killers, while most not being technically crazy, are the outliers, exceptions, caused by environmental and family issues that also nearly predetermine anti social behavior

if choosing not to shoot someone in cold blood is not free will, then you've just proved yourself wrong. if there is no choice but to *not* shoot someone, in cold blood, then it would never happen. yet it does. yes your past will help determine the choices you make, but they don't make the choices for you.

[cupcake]

jessica, no I believe we live multiple lives. I think we keep living the same one over and over and over until we get it right. (right as in what God wants). I don't believe we really go to hell. I think we are in it right now. and that it's all one big test. that we're in "heaven", and for whatever reason it's our time to be tested...that is when we become babies. for the rest of our lives we're trying to get back into heaven, or to God.

there is no choice but the right one. that to me is not free will. free will to me is choosing between moving to LA or Boston and it not mattering. but it does matter. it matters a lot to the creator who has us in motion. I've made decisions that felt wrong (not bad, but wrong) and made others where I felt like it was right (not good, but right). I'm at the point now where I've accepted I may be halfass crazy, but after I make a decision about something and then I have a deja vu, I'll feel good and on the right track. I have deja vu sometimes several times a day. that is great.

it's when I don't that I start getting worried.

I don't have any way to explain some things except, fuck it, I've obviously done this, been here before.

for example, swear to god, I was riding with my buddy last night and we're going to eat. we sit at the stop light...two lanes that can turn left, and we're in the right one. we sit there and I am obviously bothered by being in that lane, and he's like "what is it?", and I say I think we should be in the left lane. we start turning and the lady in the lane left of us goes straight and slams into the left rear quarter panel of his charger (his baby). needless to say he is furious. and tripped out "man you told me! you told me!'

what is the reason I said we should be in another lane? both lanes turn left, and I've done it a million times in either lane with no accidents? why that time?

I can't think of anything except we've done that before. there was a right and wrong choice to make. to me that is not free will.

[impala454]

well say these things happen to you, and that you've been re-living the same life over and over. what about the first time? do you have free will the first time and not the rest? it seems to me your deja vus are simply aiding you in making your decision. your buddy had the decision, he could either get in the left lane or stay where he was.

what about a decision as simple as choosing which color shirt to buy?

[James]

The obvious answer is to buy EVERY color shirt

[Mommy]

jessica, no I believe we live multiple lives. I think we keep living the same one over and over and over until we get it right. (right as in what God wants). I don't believe we really go to hell. I think we are in it right now. and that it's all one big test. that we're in "heaven", and for whatever reason it's our time to be tested...that is when we become babies. for the rest of our lives we're trying to get back into heaven, or to God.

there is no choice but the right one. that to me is not free will. free will to me is choosing between moving to LA or Boston and it not mattering. but it does matter. it matters a lot to the creator who has us in motion. I've made decisions that felt wrong (not bad, but wrong) and made others where I felt like it was right (not good, but right). I'm at the point now where I've accepted I may be halfass crazy, but after I make a decision about something and then I have a deja vu, I'll feel good and on the right track. I have deja vu sometimes several times a day. that is great.

it's when I don't that I start getting worried.

I don't have any way to explain some things except, fuck it, I've obviously done this, been here before.

for example, swear to god, I was riding with my buddy last night and we're going to eat. we sit at the stop light...two lanes that can turn left, and we're in the right one. we sit there and I am obviously bothered by being in that lane, and he's like "what is it?", and I say I think we should be in the left lane. we start turning and the lady in the lane left of us goes straight and slams into the left rear quarter panel of his charger (his baby). needless to say he is furious. and tripped out "man you told me! you told me!'

what is the reason I said we should be in another lane? both lanes turn left, and I've done it a million times in either lane with no accidents? why that time?

I can't think of anything except we've done that before. there was a right and wrong choice to make. to me that is not free will.

oooo ok, i see what youre saying now

[cupcake]

the first time you're just going at it clueless. but I do feel there is a right and wrong way you're supposed to move through it.

have you ever met anyone who's never had a deja vu? probably. have you ever met someone who has them constantly? probably.

he made that decision, yes. but it was the wrong one obviously. and we both know I knew it was prior to the light turning green. I guess if there is a right choice, then that's why I feel there's no free will.

color shirt? well I'll pick which one I feel right about. is that free will? it seems menial, but God has a plan, and I don't think he can be so intricate about creation of the universe, then just be like "oh I don't care what shirt impala wears". I think it matters.

but in menial things like that we generally make the right decision. but...BUT haven't you ever put something on, that you were questionable about...but did anyway, and sure enough something fucked up or was miserable about it?

or have you ever seen something for the first time and straight up known it was yours? shot every fuckin firearm under the sun and spent more money than you can imagine on this shit...but first time I ever fired the 1911 I knew it was mine. the feeling I had was akin to finding my dog that ran away when i was 5. like it wasn't just a "oh this is cool" feeling. fairly intricate for a pistol, broke that shit down in a minute with no instructions.

if our choices matter to his plan, then I don't view that as free. I have to have a way of justifying this stuff otherwise I would go insane 'cause it happens so much.

dude I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking...just explaining how I see it. no one I know agrees with me, so it's no sweat.

[Mommy]

I must be a newbie because Im not good at anything. Suckage.

[Dogmeat]

I must be a newbie because Im not good at anything. Suckage.

Why do you say that?

[Billy]

obviously, I would choose not to shoot someone in cold blood. but the choice was still presented to me.

I will say it again:

Having the choice of A, B, and C but only having the ability to choose A does not mean you have free will, if free will is having the ability to choose any A, B, or C.

I have concluded, again, that you lack the ability of taking information of a subject from another, understand it, and argue accordingly. I do not mind if you disagree with my beliefs. But I do get annoyed when you make a statement that was invalidated previously.

Like I said in my post: Just because you are given the options of different actions, doesn't give you free will. You would have to able to choose those other options.

if there is no choice but to *not* shoot someone, in cold blood, then it would never happen. yet it does

In the scenario of me giving YOU a gun and having you shoot me to death, you could never *choose* to do so. Given the inputs you have been given thus far in your life, you cannot make that choice. If I gave some psycho a gun and asked them to shoot me, they might be able to. They weren't given the same inputs, and are thus not confined to the same output.

I do have a question for you, given your exceptional poor performance in this argument: do you actually think about what others have already said before you make a statement?


Now, on to trivial things, like choosing one colored shirt over another: uninfluenced by the fact that I am purposely *trying* to have free will (by the act of trying to have free will, I essentially rob myself of it), I will likely pick my favorite looking shirt. Why it is my favorite, I do not know. But I do not pick that at random. I always pick the one I mysteriously like for whatever reason. Also, I always pick different shirts. I never buy two of the same kind. If I lived in a society where everyone always wore the same shirt, I would also buy the same type of the same shirt over and over again.

Like I've said before, just because you make a decision, doesn't mean you've willfully chosen that decision. This issue is simple to you, because you don't understand it's complexity. I know you *think* that by choosing one thing over another, you have actually chosen by free will. But you haven't. If you want to know why, re-read these arguments. But I don't think you will. I am fairly certain you are incapable of changing your opinion. So until you learn how to change your opinion, stop trying to change others'.

Stop being so interested in trying to being right, and be more interested in coming to the right conclusion. It is ok to be wrong. Everyone is wrong every now and again.