Democratic agenda Options

[The Fanatic]

Not if it increases inflation, which it will.

[Billy]

Not if it increases inflation, which it will.

Pure speculation. Generally, to have inflation, you need to actually have more money into the economy, not just change its hands. Competition will keep prices down. Minimum wage labor is usually one of the smallest expenses a company has and will not force companies to permanently raise prices, if even at all. And in fact, with the exception of the southern states like Texas, Alabama, and Louisiana, most companies already pay that $7.50 and higher to their "minimum wage" workers. So in the majority case, most companies will not even be affected by this law. In Texas, there are few business who pay less than $6 an hour. Those companies will be only minorly affected. To have the effect on the economy that opponents of the minimum wage hike claim, you'd need to affect a much larger area and a much larger population.

You are going to be happily surprised when this law does absolutely nothing harmful to the economy.

[Mommy]

Pure speculation. Generally, to have inflation, you need to actually have more money into the economy, not just change its hands. Competition will keep prices down. Minimum wage labor is usually one of the smallest expenses a company has and will not force companies to permanently raise prices, if even at all. And in fact, with the exception of the southern states like Texas, Alabama, and Louisiana, most companies already pay that $7.50 and higher to their "minimum wage" workers. So in the majority case, most companies will not even be affected by this law. In Texas, there are few business who pay less than $6 an hour. Those companies will be only minorly affected. To have the effect on the economy that opponents of the minimum wage hike claim, you'd need to affect a much larger area and a much larger population.

You are going to be happily surprised when this law does absolutely nothing harmful to the economy.

Definitely agree here. It will only affect certain businesses that are cheap asses and dont pay their employees well.

[Billy]

I do find it interesting that a lot of the people who defended the doubling in the price of gas are vehemently against the raising of the minimum wage. The rise in gas prices has destroyed the stock market, raised your electric bill, and caused huge amounts of inflation. And there wasn't even a good side benefit. Atleast raising the minimum wage has a good chance of stimulating it.

[GOB]

The rise in gas prices has destroyed the stock market

um?


if by "destroyed," you mean "didn't really affect because all the major indices have done nothing but go up significantly in the past three years," then you would be correct.

maybe i missed the thread on here where people "supported" the rise in gas/oil prices?

[Dogmeat]

Explain to me how the rise in gas prices have "destroyed" the stock market .... if anything they've been a partial cause of inflation, not any long term effects on the stock market ...

[The Fanatic]

Pure speculation. Generally, to have inflation, you need to actually have more money into the economy, not just change its hands. Competition will keep prices down. Minimum wage labor is usually one of the smallest expenses a company has and will not force companies to permanently raise prices, if even at all. And in fact, with the exception of the southern states like Texas, Alabama, and Louisiana, most companies already pay that $7.50 and higher to their "minimum wage" workers. So in the majority case, most companies will not even be affected by this law. In Texas, there are few business who pay less than $6 an hour. Those companies will be only minorly affected. To have the effect on the economy that opponents of the minimum wage hike claim, you'd need to affect a much larger area and a much larger population.

You are going to be happily surprised when this law does absolutely nothing harmful to the economy.

Don't get me wrong, something needs to be done. I just think that simply raising the min. wage is not enough. If they do increase the min wage, at least I will get a pay raise (currently making 6.50)...

I do find it interesting that a lot of the people who defended the doubling in the price of gas are vehemently against the raising of the minimum wage. The rise in gas prices has destroyed the stock market, raised your electric bill, and caused huge amounts of inflation. And there wasn't even a good side benefit. Atleast raising the minimum wage has a good chance of stimulating it.

While i agree that raising gas prices has had A HUGE impact on inflation, it has not destroyed the stock market. Please back up this speculation with evidence...

[Billy]

Almost any investor you can talk to will tell you the rise in energy costs has kept the market down.

Ok, I should not have said "destroyed". Maybe instead "heaftily hindered". Get over it. This thread is about minimum wage, not gas.

And btw, the 2005 dow jones, is at the same level as 2000. Nasdaq, is significantly lower than 2000. S&P 500 is also only at the same level as 2000. Please, dear god, explain how you got the major indices have done nothing but go up significantly.





Oh, that's right, because you misleadingly said "past 3 years". Though that statement is true, that's not when gas prices started to rise (the price began it's steep inclimation in 2002, source), and for the market to keep up on par with its past, it would have had to rise much higher than it has. The stock market is not in all that great shape. Believe me, investors have not been too impressed with the past 7 years.

Some supporting links to my claim:

http://www.coxwashington.com/reporters/con.../OIL15_COX.html
http://www.forbes.com/business/newswire/20...rtr1382512.html

Not claiming it's the end of the world. But energy prices have indeed, dealt a blow to the market. Nothing it won't recover from (in fact, two the three major indices have, at this point in time, recovered), and honestly, it is not the only factor. But there is no denying it was a significant contributor.


Now, back to minimum wage.

[Billy]

maybe i missed the thread on here where people "supported" the rise in gas/oil prices?

You must have. I think hartman and impala defended the rise in gas prices.

[The Fanatic]

Ummm, the U.S. did enter a recession??

[Billy]

Hey look man, you can disagree with higher energy prices hurting the stock market. But, every Finance PhD in the world will call you an idiot.

But maybe they're wrong!

But that's beside the point. I still want to know how anyone can justify the price of gas (via inflation and real dollars), but then can turn around and claim that minimum wage, which hasn't seen in an increase in 10 years, shouldn't be raised (in other words, why do the same economic rules not apply to the minimum wage as they do to the price of gas?).

[GOB]

you're drawing it back to 00-01 which is absolutely not when gas prices were high. the market was shitty at that point due to the tech bust, and it's done nothing but rise since then; "destroyed" would be not improving at all.

one of your oil articles was written in the middle of last summer when the barrel was at its' highest ever. hmm, there weren't any nutcase market speculators at that time, were there? and the farm economy? right, that hasn't been tanking for the past 20 years...

did you actually look at the values of these indices, or are you just looking at the graphs? there was a huge gap to overcome after the late 99-01 recession, and the market has done just that. the scale of the graphs you posted are misleading because they date back to the inception of the index-- look at a 5 year historical chart and the change is much more clear. you're arguing that historical, actual, real (as in, it really, really, really did actually happen) positive returns are bad.


at this point in 2002 compared to today:

the s&p is roughly 300 points higher now
the dow is about 2000 points higher (not that this index matters for most average investors unless you're a strictly blue chip douche)
the nasdaq is about 500 higher
wilshire 5000 is about 4000 points higher
russell 1000 is almost 200 higher
russell 2000 is about 300 higher
russell 3000 is 200 higher

i could list all of them, if you would like. or how about an excel spreadsheet with the historical returns so you can take a closer look?



edit: i'm not arguing against your views on minimum wage increase, but it's ridiculous to say that the economy sucks when it's doing quite well. companies are making money, jobs are available, i don't see the problem.

[Dogmeat]

Hey look man, you can disagree with higher energy prices hurting the stock market. But, every Finance PhD in the world will call you an idiot.

But maybe they're wrong!

But that's beside the point. I still want to know how anyone can justify the price of gas (via inflation and real dollars), but then can turn around and claim that minimum wage, which hasn't seen in an increase in 10 years, shouldn't be raised (in other words, why do the same economic rules not apply to the minimum wage as they do to the price of gas?).

because the market should dictate what the job somone does is worth, not the government

[Jim]

because the market should dictate what the job somone does is worth, not the government

Don't you know, the government has to tell us what to do on everything. Including wipe our ass and talk on the internt.

[GOB]

Leading Indicators Point To Economic Acceleration
By ISABELLE LINDENMAYER
January 23, 2007 10:32 a.m.

U.S. economic activity is set to accelerate slightly in the coming months, according to a report released Tuesday by the Conference Board.

The private research group said its composite index of leading indicators rose 0.3% to 138.0 in December, from a downwardly revised flat reading in November. The December reading was on target with analysts' expectations. The index was equal to 100 in 1996.

"The latest data for the Leading Economic Index is pointing to continued moderate growth or even a little acceleration," Ken Goldstein, labor economist at the Conference Board said. "Energy prices are again on the decline. The housing slump does not appear to be deepening. Inflation remains relatively in check at the moment," he said. "Consumer income growth appears to be picking up … as wage growth improves and job generation does not appear to be slowing."

In its report, the group said its coincident indicators index rose by 0.2% to 123.3 last month, echoing November's 0.2% gain, while the lagging index for December rose by 0.9% to 127.3, compared with a 0.6% rise the prior month.

The Conference Board noted that for the month, six of the 10 components making up the leading index rose, lifted by building permits, average weekly initial claims for unemployment insurance, real money supply and stock prices. The biggest negative contributors included interest-rate spreads and the index of consumer expectations.

The report said that, from June to December, the leading index rose by 0.1%, which represents a 0.3% annual rate of increase.

The Conference Board is a nonprofit research and business membership group, which computes the composite indexes from the U.S. Department of Commerce.

source:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1169564872..._lead_story_lsc



the release of the leading economic indicators was delayed for some reason until this morning at 9am. odd, but good news. (examples of economic indicators = s&p500 stock prices, avg weekly work hours, avg unemployment claims, inflation adj orders for consumer goods, vendor performance, new building permits, t-bill rates, and consumer expectations-- which, oddly enough, includes many finance PhDs)