Day of Infamy Options

[Hartmann]

yeah, and i think they highly underestimate our population's ability to kick some ass. not to mention our popluation has nearly doubled since WW2, people deal with increasing crime rates, murder, gangs, and private gun ownership is way up. i just read an estimate of privately owned guns at 215 million in 1999, and almost half of all households have at least one gun owner.

2 things.

1. I don't think it takes a massive navy to invade a country anymore. Our forces here in the states are by no means what they were during the Cold War. Hell, more than half of the bases that were meant to supplement pushing back an invasion force have closed. Most air defense protection has fallen on the Air National Guard and they've definitely proven themselves in do or die situations (shoe bomber incident, took 'em I think 8 minutes to scramble, that's insane)

We do not have an missile defense system because most Americans don't want a SAM site setup down the street from their Malibu home. I think Russia still has some of its SAM sites setup around Moscow.

2. Your point about gun ownership is well taken, but how many of those people are willing to shoot to kill? And if they are willing to shoot to kill, how good of a shot are they. War isn't going to be a Red Dawn situation with teenage kids taking out convoys of tanks, I hate to break it to everyone but that was just a movie.

You must look at how are population has doubled and the age of that population. We are nearly turning the corner of being 50%+ of 50+ year olds. Yes, I'm sure all those folks with their arthritis and hemorrhoids would be a great defender of the U.S. And trying to get them up to speed on a computer? Uh huh. I like pipe dreams too.

Also, look at immigration as bringing in a lot of our population. Do you think the people who just came here are willing to fight to stay? Hell no. They'll run.

[Billy]

that's simply the point I was trying to make on page 1.

but God love techsans.net for running with this in every direction. makes for one hell of an interesting read.

My agreement came with conditions though.

[Hartmann]

that's simply the point I was trying to make on page 1.

but God love techsans.net for running with this in every direction. makes for one hell of an interesting read.

Didn't he just say in one sentence what I spent hours typing? ugh....

[cupcake]

i think you over-estimate the abilities of the post-cold war era Russia. what's required to invade us is a very strong navy, which nobody comes close to matching us. check out this little tidbit:

I don't foresee this happening in our lifetime, but if russia or china wanted to invade the US, they could.

aircraft carriers do not an invasion force make. for one, they have plenty of destroyers, naval gunfire to prep the beach. that's the way amphib assaults have been carried out since existence.

two, they wouldn't hit us in fuckin socal. they would more likely invade a southern country and march up. If I were running the show, I'd do a two front assault...mexico, and across the bering straight. at which point you set up your airbases and supply depots. then envelope america from the north and south and spearhead the middle, dividing the country in half, and taking over the gulf ports. they have more than enough ground forces and aircraft to make that happen.

at which point, it's back to attrition.

we should all play risk sometime lol

[Billy]

I would personally support manditory military service after high school for a couple of years. A kind of boot camp for all.

[cupcake]

would you really? I have mixed thoughts.

on one hand, it would be good for america. even just a two year stint as a pogue would make youth appreciate things.

but as a troop leader, I know how hard it is to motivate guys who sign up for the mil, and volunteer for and pass the indocs to get into a unit. I honestly cannot imagine motivating a draftee...

[impala454]

cupcake & hartmann:
so you honestly think if some other country decided to, they could load up their troops and set sail for america? you've got to be joking.

did you bother to look at the link i posted?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...of_armed_forces

AC = Aircraft carrier, C = Cruiser, D = destroyer, F = frigate

US -> 12 AC, 22 C, 48 D, 30 F, 2900 aircraft (AF website says more like 4000)

the only people who come anywhere near that:
China-> 0AC/0C/27D/34F 1,450 aircraft
Russia-> 1AC/7C/15D/11F 2,400 aircraft
UK-> 2AC/0C/8D/17F 480 aircraft
France-> 1AC/0C/12D/11F 330 aircraft
Japan-> 0AC/0C/45D/9F 357 aircraft

nobody even comes close.

Iran = laughable -> 0AC/0C/0D/3F 150
NK = also laughable -> 0AC/0C/ 0D/ 3F 592

sure they'd load up and set sail for america, and rest in peace at the bottom of the pacific

[impala454]

two, they wouldn't hit us in fuckin socal. they would more likely invade a southern country and march up. If I were running the show, I'd do a two front assault...mexico, and across the bering straight. at which point you set up your airbases and supply depots. then envelope america from the north and south and spearhead the middle, dividing the country in half, and taking over the gulf ports. they have more than enough ground forces and aircraft to make that happen.

and you seriously think we'd allow their ships to get anywhere near mexico?

and the bering straight? even if for some crazy reason they could actually land troops on this continent, yeah have fun rolling tanks through the rockies while we pick em off one by one.

[Billy]

cupcake & hartmann:
so you honestly think if some other country decided to, they could load up their troops and set sail for america? you've got to be joking.

did you bother to look at the link i posted?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...of_armed_forces

AC = Aircraft carrier, C = Cruiser, D = destroyer, F = frigate

US -> 12 AC, 22 C, 48 D, 30 F, 2900 aircraft (AF website says more like 4000)

the only people who come anywhere near that:
China-> 0AC/0C/27D/34F 1,450 aircraft
Russia-> 1AC/7C/15D/11F 2,400 aircraft
UK-> 2AC/0C/8D/17F 480 aircraft
France-> 1AC/0C/12D/11F 330 aircraft
Japan-> 0AC/0C/45D/9F 357 aircraft

nobody even comes close.

Iran = laughable -> 0AC/0C/0D/3F 150
NK = also laughable -> 0AC/0C/ 0D/ 3F 592

sure they'd load up and set sail for america, and rest in peace at the bottom of the pacific

I think what they're trying to say is that if these other countries had the firepower and technology we have then they would probably be able to take us down as the people in this country are too weak physically and mentally to withstand a war of attrition. And I think that's a pretty obvious "duh". But the hard part is getting to the point where it becomes a war of attrition. And I think that is where the confusion of the two sides comes from. Because I think everybody is right. I think they are right that america wouldn't win a war of attrition, and I think we are right in America probably won't ever have to face that kind of war in a very long time due to our technological and geographical advantage over these others.

[Hartmann]

and you seriously think we'd allow their ships to get anywhere near mexico?

and the bering straight? even if for some crazy reason they could actually land troops on this continent, yeah have fun rolling tanks through the rockies while we pick em off one by one.

The Bering Strait and Gulf of Mexico are not guarded by the Navy, they are patrolled occasionally by the Coast Guard. Yeah, that'll scare off some destroyers... "Sir, they have orange ships! The war is lost!". Also, the Coast Guard patrols usually no more than 50-75 miles from shore unless called upon.

[impala454]

The Bering Strait and Gulf of Mexico are not guarded by the Navy, they are patrolled occasionally by the Coast Guard. Yeah, that'll scare off some destroyers... "Sir, they have orange ships! The war is lost!". Also, the Coast Guard patrols usually no more than 50-75 miles from shore unless called upon.

dude you're smarter than you're leading on here... if any ship of any country we deem to be remotely an enemy left its harbor, we'd know about it long before they reached some coast guard ship. hell if we wanted to we could probably have a smart bomb sink the f'n thing within 5 minutes of the thing breaking into open ocean

[Hartmann]

dude you're smarter than you're leading on here... if any ship of any country we deem to be remotely an enemy left its harbor, we'd know about it long before they reached some coast guard ship.

Like you said, the Cold War is over... We do not track ships leaving harbor unless they are in a country that we are actively monitoring (Iran, North Korea, etc.)

[Billy]

Like you said, the Cold War is over... We do not track ships leaving harbor unless they are in a country that we are actively monitoring (Iran, North Korea, etc.)

Are you sure about that?

[impala454]

Like you said, the Cold War is over... We do not track ships leaving harbor unless they are in a country that we are actively monitoring (Iran, North Korea, etc.)

haha you've got to be shitting me. you're just on crack now.

[Billy]

haha you've got to be shitting me. you're just on crack now.

Why turn to that? This is how debate devolves into name calling and the whole discussion just becomes shit.

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