Religious/Philosophical discussion, your thoughts Options

[Jim]

Also, I am not saying Free Will doesn't exist. I am saying that Free Will with the Judeo-Christian God doesn't exist.

[chook]

I have a lot I could write on free will and predetermination but I'll try to keep it short.

By disagreeing with free will you proving that it exists (in a way). You have the ability to disagree, to go your own way, if you didn't, then you would be forced to believe what God wants you to.

God doesn't need you. He doesn't need me. But He wants us.

The only predetermined things that I believe exists are this... 2 things will happen at some point in the future.

1. Christ will return
2. I will die

I am guessing the second will occur first, but I know for a fact, one of those things is certain.
For those looking for good reading about free will and beliefs, read Ecclesiastes. Solomon's account of what life is like when you have everything and still want something more. Considering Solomon was one of the wealthiest kings in all of history he's a pretty good source.

you forgot taxes!

and i'll take 3rd world over real world.

[Billy]

I have a lot I could write on free will and predetermination but I'll try to keep it short.

By disagreeing with free will you proving that it exists (in a way). You have the ability to disagree, to go your own way, if you didn't, then you would be forced to believe what God wants you to.

God doesn't need you. He doesn't need me. But He wants us.

The only predetermined things that I believe exists are this... 2 things will happen at some point in the future.

1. Christ will return
2. I will die

I am guessing the second will occur first, but I know for a fact, one of those things is certain.
For those looking for good reading about free will and beliefs, read Ecclesiastes. Solomon's account of what life is like when you have everything and still want something more. Considering Solomon was one of the wealthiest kings in all of history he's a pretty good source.

What if I were programmed to disagree? Or by nature, I don't believe in a god. Is that free will? I don't think so.

In the past, on the subject of free will, I asked the question: Could you go to some random person's house, right now, and kill them? I am 100% sure I can not make that choice. And I am 100% sure you can't make that choice. The answer is always no. You do not have the will to do that, as you are controlled by the fear of repurcussion of doing so, or the natural morality to know not to do it. Though every one of us is capable of doing so, not one here would.

That is not free will. You can argue and argue and argue if you wanted to, you would, yet you can not prove me wrong. You can't go do it. Your "choice" to do so, is dictated by consequence. And the truth is, all of our choices are dictated by consequence. Everything we "choose" is based on some past experience. Completely calculated and exact.

If I were wrong about this, the FBI's method of profiling to find and catch criminals would not be nearly as effective as it is.

[Trespass]

Also, I am not saying Free Will doesn't exist. I am saying that Free Will with the Judeo-Christian God doesn't exist.

Not me, i don't believe in free will now thanks to your brilliance. I mean just this weekend i PREDICTED the cowboys to win over the giants from what i seen taking place with them, and since it happened, thats means they didn't REALLY have free will over it since i predicted it and it happened!!!

[Hartmann]

What if I were programmed to disagree? Or by nature, I don't believe in a god. Is that free will? I don't think so.

In the past, on the subject of free will, I asked the question: Could you go to some random person's house, right now, and kill them? I am 100% sure I can not make that choice. And I am 100% sure you can't make that choice. The answer is always no. You do not have the will to do that, as you are controlled by the fear of repurcussion of doing so, or the natural morality to know not to do it. Though every one of us is capable of doing so, not one here would.

That is not free will. You can argue and argue and argue if you wanted to, you would, yet you can not prove me wrong. You can't go do it. Your "choice" to do so, is dictated by consequence. And the truth is, all of our choices are dictated by consequence. Everything we "choose" is based on some past experience. Completely calculated and exact.

If I were wrong about this, the FBI's method of profiling to find and catch criminals would not be nearly as effective as it is.

In my opinion you are clouding the term "free will" with emotional choices. There are people, who by choice have gone to a random person and killed them. It happened a couple of days ago here. Some people do not care about consequences, so does that mean that they have free will and I do not? hmmm

As far as natural morality goes, I am of the belief that you are born with "broken moral standards". A good example of this is a 2 year old who has never seen his/her parents or other children bite, yet they bite when they're mad. Is that child born with that or is it learned? Most definitely born with it. We have this natural want/desire to do things our way, to be selfish, and that's part of free will.

I am at work so I can't post everything I want. But I'll try to find all of my notes on this subject when I get home.

[Trespass]

What if I were programmed to disagree? Or by nature, I don't believe in a god. Is that free will? I don't think so.

In the past, on the subject of free will, I asked the question: Could you go to some random person's house, right now, and kill them? I am 100% sure I can not make that choice. And I am 100% sure you can't make that choice. The answer is always no. You do not have the will to do that, as you are controlled by the fear of repurcussion of doing so, or the natural morality to know not to do it. Though every one of us is capable of doing so, not one here would.

That is not free will. You can argue and argue and argue if you wanted to, you would, yet you can not prove me wrong. You can't go do it. Your "choice" to do so, is dictated by consequence. And the truth is, all of our choices are dictated by consequence. Everything we "choose" is based on some past experience. Completely calculated and exact.

If I were wrong about this, the FBI's method of profiling to find and catch criminals would not be nearly as effective as it is.

So because one person CHOOSES not to do something because of the reprecussions (when some choose to do it) it means no free will?

That makes less sense than souls in space.

[Billy]

So because one person CHOOSES not to do something because of the reprecussions (when some choose to do it) it means no free will?

That makes less sense than souls in space.

What doesn't make sense?

You have two choices, but you can only choose one. Is that choice?

No. I think people think because they have choice, they have free will. They think they can actually choose, when in reality, the choice they would have chosen, would always be chosen.

If you do not understand, it's not my problem.

[Jim]

Not me, i don't believe in free will now thanks to your brilliance. I mean just this weekend i PREDICTED the cowboys to win over the giants from what i seen taking place with them, and since it happened, thats means they didn't REALLY have free will over it since i predicted it and it happened!!!

There's a difference between predicting the outcome of a given situation and straight up knowing what will or will not happen. Again, Jesus straight up tells Peter he will deny him 3 times. That's not a prediction, that's telling him what will happen.


Prediction != knowing

[Billy]

In my opinion you are clouding the term "free will" with emotional choices. There are people, who by choice have gone to a random person and killed them. It happened a couple of days ago here. Some people do not care about consequences, so does that mean that they have free will and I do not? hmmm

As far as natural morality goes, I am of the belief that you are born with "broken moral standards". A good example of this is a 2 year old who has never seen his/her parents or other children bite, yet they bite when they're mad. Is that child born with that or is it learned? Most definitely born with it. We have this natural want/desire to do things our way, to be selfish, and that's part of free will.

I am at work so I can't post everything I want. But I'll try to find all of my notes on this subject when I get home.

What I am claiming is, that person who did randomly kill someone, couldn't choose to not do so.

And as far instincts go, that's an example of lack of free will. You will naturally make a decision. You do not choose it, you just do it.

What I am claiming is this: If you knew everything about a person, every single bit of material information, you can effectively predict what they will choose.

But just like the concept of a god, this is difficult to prove or disprove. As it's impossible to know everything about a person. But for a tip of the iceberg proof, FBI profilers are able to take information they know about a person's background, and predict where they'll go when trying to run or hide.

[Trespass]

What doesn't make sense?

You have two choices, but you can only choose one. Is that choice?

No. I think people think because they have choice, they have free will. They think they can actually choose, when in reality, the choice they would have chosen, would always be chosen.

If you do not understand, it's not my problem.

ha ha ha, no i understand what you saying... im saying that its stupid. Your telling me BECAUSE i make a choice i didn't make a choice because i only did one of them.... so to you, the only way to have free will is to have a time machine and do both????

nevermind, if you can't see it i most likely can't help lol

[Billy]

ha ha ha, no i understand what you saying... im saying that its stupid. Your telling me BECAUSE i make a choice i didn't make a choice because i only did one of them.... so to you, the only way to have free will is to have a time machine and do both????

nevermind, if you can't see it i most likely can't help lol

Yeah, laugh out of loud and call another concept "stupid" because you don't agree. You get a gold star for best supporting argument.

[Trespass]

There's a difference between predicting the outcome of a given situation and straight up knowing what will or will not happen. Again, Jesus straight up tells Peter he will deny him 3 times. That's not a prediction, that's telling him what will happen.
Prediction != knowing

See... your tryiing to say what it was.. who are you? Bible doesn't say that judas and john couldn't CHOOSE to go the other direction. They still had free will, but don't you think GOD could have all the information going on to make a prediction of what someone will do? Just because he said "you will deny me" doesn't necessarily mean it was a foregone conclusion, it could very well mean that god could look at the nature of john himself and see that in the circumstance he would deny him. We're talking someone with all knowing, don't you think they could make a judgment (Especially if time was of no consequence to them able to see forward and back through time) on something... even if free will IS given?

Your merely arguing the definition of "free will" to me. Since someone can see what someone else will choose before hand to you means there is no free will, i would disagree.

(just a couple of weeks ago i was arguing against gods "free will" and "pre-determination" to a strict baptist... ha ha i'd argue with a ham sandwich)

[Trespass]

Yeah, laugh out of loud and call another concept "stupid" because you don't agree. You get a gold star for best supporting argument.

Sorry, i'll refrain from stating the obvious from now on, sorry peon.

(oh and for the record im not calling your souls as energy thing stupid, i actually like that Point of view)

[Billy]

See... your tryiing to say what it was.. who are you? Bible doesn't say that judas and john couldn't CHOOSE to go the other direction. They still had free will, but don't you think GOD could have all the information going on to make a prediction of what someone will do? Just because he said "you will deny me" doesn't necessarily mean it was a foregone conclusion, it could very well mean that god could look at the nature of john himself and see that in the circumstance he would deny him. We're talking someone with all knowing, don't you think they could make a judgment (Especially if time was of no consequence to them able to see forward and back through time) on something... even if free will IS given?

Your merely arguing the definition of "free will" to me. Since someone can see what someone else will choose before hand to you means there is no free will, i would disagree.

(just a couple of weeks ago i was arguing against gods "free will" and "pre-determination" to a strict baptist... ha ha i'd argue with a ham sandwich)

This argument is exactly why I don't think you "get it". If someone can be predicted, they do not have free will. And that's the problem with the concept of god being all knowing. If he knows what you'll do, obvious, what you were going to do is predetermined. And if that's the case, you cannot have free will (you are incapable of actually making the choice). Why is set of logical statements difficult to comprehend?

I never saw myself defending any of Jim's arguments, but he has you here.

Just a note: I really do not think this thread was started to debate. So we can agree to disagree. Some believe in free will, some do not. That should be the end of it.

[Trespass]

This argument is exactly why I don't think you "get it". If someone can be predicted, they do not have free will. And that's the problem with the concept of god being all knowing. If he knows what you'll do, obvious, what you were going to do is predetermined. And if that's the case, you cannot have free will (you are incapable of actually making the choice). Why is set of logical statements difficult to comprehend?

I never saw myself defending any of Jim's arguments, but he has you here.

Just a note: I really do not think this thread was started to debate. So we can agree to disagree. Some believe in free will, some do not. That should be the end of it.

ha ha, OMGZ PEON DISSAGREZ WIF ME OUZ NOOES!!!

its a forum... started to fuel discussion, so im pretty sure giving opinions is allowed and part of the point of posting...

And i DO "get it" I fully understand what you are saying. I am merely saying that ya'll are DEFINING what something is and isn't. I am merely saying you aren't the defining source of what a god can and can't do for "free will" to exist. I personally don't think i was to jerk off at a point in time to a certain dirty thought (if god could see the future). Have you thought of the idea that perhaps its a mixed bowl? Sure we make our own decisions, but they are made within a rule bound world with limited variables. To you that means its not "free will" i would simply disagree. So YES i am saying we are agreeing do disagree, but why does that mean we can't speak about our views... is peon now the ruling master of what i can and can't say?

And i don't think jim or I are trying to "prove the other wrong" more than just try to punch holes in each others views ... which helps one refine their own beliefs around points made from opposite sides. If you never have an opposite side question your view, how can you ever give your own view credence?

EDIT: Damn it you made me mute pti and miss them talking about mavs!