NBC Options

[pebkac]

http://www.comcast.net/tv/index.jsp?cat=TE...mp;cvqh=itn_nbc

Wow. If NBC says it, it must be true. Not that I necessarily disagree, but why do they think they can all of a sudden define what is and isn't a civil war?

[The Fanatic]

A war between factions or regions of the same country.


With this broad definition it does qualify as small civil war at least. But, conflict was brought on by a foreign power, so that likely has some effect on what this war can be considered.

This post has been edited by Dr. Gonzo: Nov 27 2006, 09:06 PM

[Divergent Realit...]

A war between factions or regions of the same country.
With this broad definition it does qualify as small civil war at least. But, conflict was brought on by a foreign power, so that likely has some effect on what this war can be considered.

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[cupcake]

I'd call it a civil war.

someday we're gonna need to apologize to those people.

life might have sucked under saddam, but the citizens getting blown the fuck up at a cyclic, daily rate.

I feel remorse for them.

[impala454]

apologize?? uh... yeah we're really sorry that we took away the guy who was mass murdering you people whenever he felt like it. we're also really really sorry for all the aid we've sent over and for killing the people who threaten you on a daily basis. can you ever forgive us?

[impala454]

But, conflict was brought on by a foreign power, so that likely has some effect on what this war can be considered.

conflict was brought on by them breaking regulations they agreed to on weapons

[cupcake]

that's the way you see it.

it's not the way they do.

[impala454]

the people still fighting against us & the rest of iraq are fighting for those principles, i don't see how it's a civil war

that's the way you see it.

it's not the way they do.

so how do you see it?

[cupcake]

it's murky. but at the base level....we are western we hail primarily from europe/christian ideals.

they are eastern and muslim. immediately that creates a huge gap in comprehension. they digest things differently than we do.

it's been my experience that eastern muslims do not comprehend freedom at all. they are an extreme group. and they need governing by extreme methods, because left to their own devices they are far too volatile a group to ever "just get along". by extreme I do not mean blow themselves up...I mean even moderate muslims take their religion very seriously, whereas most of us are more chill about it.

they (even moderates) see us as infidels. our govt on their land is sacrilige (sp). whether we are there for the "right" intentions or not (right in our eyes, that is "freedom from oppression, inherent rights as free men, etc").

the only real way to keep these people in check is to scare them. either with religion (the throne of saudi, cleric rulers) or by the gun (dictators). very few muslim countries elect their own govt...and those that do have had a close relationship with the west for many years (pakistan and turkey spring to mind).

it's not something that they can comprehend over night. which is essentially what we threw on them byt the swift takeover of their country. we freed them. and at first they were stoked and appreciateive.

but in doing so, we opened the flood gates for all the wild ass mofos to express themselves too. and they don't do it in the voting booth (as we all know now). they do it violently and indiscriminately.

once normal people doing their daily deeds started dying, their perception of our role changed to "this wasn't happening before the americans were here".

the real victims of this war are not the insurgents, saddam or his family, our own troop casualties. instead they are actually the people we were originally trying to help; the iraqi civilians (so Bush says...though I tend to think that the humanitarian justification was merely a great thing to tell the world and the american people...less guilt).

IMO this war was a christmas present to his father. this war was motivated by money, fear, and shotty intel.

not out of the goodness of Bush's heart.

we have destroyed any sense of normality for the citizens of iraq. they are getting blown the fuck up on a daily basis for no reason at all. this wouldn't be happening if we never went in. saddam was a contained threat. yes he was a dickhead, but he had control of his wildass country. and while he was resistant to the sanctions against him, that was all bravado and him wanting to look rad. time has shown he was really no threat at all.

I think it's a sad deal all around. and from the outset I was against it. our battlefront and "free and clear" pass from the international to fuck shit up was in the stan. but the govt obviously had a different agenda, and we let that slip through our fingers.

saddam could have waited until the dust settled a bit.

[impala454]

yeah i agree on how they see us and how they're from a completely different set of ideals. like you said revolutions don't happen over night, but i think lots of people in iraq have seen the light and see what their lives could be like as free citizens, and now don't want to give that up (i.e. people voting for leaders, women having some rights, etc). of course there's going to be a group resistant to the change, but i have a feeling in the end iraq will be a free democracy. muslims who've assimliated american society over here are proof enough that they can still have their cake & eat it too.

as far as reasons to go to war... this has been discussed to no end and nobody's going to change their views. i don't agree or think at all that there was any motivation to go to war other than the man breaking UN regulations and us calling them on it based on the intelligence we had in hand. the vote to go to war pretty much proves that's how it went down. was bush sr. happy to see saddam go down in flames? well sure, no doubts there. was that a driving force to go to war? no.

[cupcake]

hell I was the most happy guy in the room to see him hiding in that hole and his sons dead.

still...I feel sorry for the citizens getting wasted.

and I have no fucking idea why all the sudden someone thinks it is a good idea to get iran...I-FUCKING-RAN for crying out loud! in on negotiations?

baffling

[impala454]

yeah it's always sad to see non-combatants get killed, but it's a side effect of what could possibly be a much greater thing. tons of innocents died in our revolutionary and civil wars (more than any other war ever), but look where we are now... arguably the most powerful country on the planet, all of our children have full bellies (heh too full sometimes), people have jobs, tons of excess assets. it's a risk to change a country like that, but i bet in the end it'll be seen as well worth it.

i dunno what to think about iran... talk seemed to have settled down on it and get more focused on NK, i dunno whats up with them either

[Trespass]

I don't think all of iraq is in a volatile state of being. Most of iraq just goes about its business as normal, but there are hot spots where people are being murdered by a single person with a big bomb... no way to really protect against that.

Yes the culture is different (lots of "holier than thou" type people wanting power... thus nature of oppression) but there are also moderates who YES want the country back to themselves (not wanting us there) but i think it isn't because we are infidels to them, its because they are being killed because of the few who think we are infidels.

[Hartmann]

There has never been peace in the Middle East, and when there finally is, be afraid...

I do not believe that Islam is a religion of peace. In modern times you would never see Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. rioting the arrival of another religion's top figure. Anyway, off topic, but whatever...

[impala454]

you've got countless muslims living in peace over here... most of them interacting with or in close proximity to any of the religions you listed. it's not the religion that stirs the violence, maybe it was 1000 years ago, but it seems to me that they've developed such a hatred for each other over there, that the religious reasoning for the hatred has kind of fallen to the wayside.