An Alternative History to 9/11 Options

[Hartmann]

Jessica, your comment about Christianity is only the belief of the loud minority (almost always the case with anything). I don't believe the world is going to get worse in the immediate future. The world has gone through great times and terrible times. It's cyclic, but with the creation of more destructive technologies the overall sinister feel gets worse.

[Hartmann]

http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/2006-09-14/news_story.php

The problem that I have with this one is that it tries to state that thousands of people "would still be alive" in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, yet there is no one who can say that. If I had been killed in a car accident today, no one could say "If he hadn't gotten in the car this morning, he'd still be alive". Who knows, I could have choked on a pretzel.

[Mommy]

Jessica, your comment about Christianity is only the belief of the loud minority (almost always the case with anything). I don't believe the world is going to get worse in the immediate future. The world has gone through great times and terrible times. It's cyclic, but with the creation of more destructive technologies the overall sinister feel gets worse.

I thought most Christians interpreted Revelations that way... that the world is getting worse and worse and and it will some day peak at a time when Jesus has his second coming to collect all of the believers. Then the 1000 year tribulation will occur followed by the end of the world.

I dont know. thats just what I thought. I grew up strict Baptist though so that might be why I heard most Christians saying that.... it was most of the Christians that I knew

[Hartmann]

I thought most Christians interpreted Revelations that way... that the world is getting worse and worse and and it will some day peak at a time when Jesus has his second coming to collect all of the believers. Then the 1000 year tribulation will occur followed by the end of the world.

I dont know. thats just what I thought. I grew up strict Baptist though so that might be why I heard most Christians saying that.... it was most of the Christians that I knew

There is some dissention in the Church about what Revelations means. The point at which the world will officially be in the "end times" is supposed to be when Israel signs a 7 year truce with its enemies (Christ will return at this point and Christians will be "raptured"). Revelation also says that a leader will rise out of power in eastern Europe (most people think he/she will be from the Caucus Mountains region). This person will be the anti-Christ. The world will then be in turmoil with many plagues and hardships taking place. The mark of the beast will be instated and those who do not take it will be killed.

A final battle will take place with good vs. evil in what scholars believe is the area known as Megiddo (hence Armageddon).

Again, there are a lot of conflicting opinions. Some people believe we are living in the end times. Me, I'm not worried. Either way, I'm sure I will be alright.

[Mommy]

There is some dissention in the Church about what Revelations means. The point at which the world will officially be in the "end times" is supposed to be when Israel signs a 7 year truce with its enemies (Christ will return at this point and Christians will be "raptured"). Revelation also says that a leader will rise out of power in eastern Europe (most people think he/she will be from the Caucus Mountains region). This person will be the anti-Christ. The world will then be in turmoil with many plagues and hardships taking place. The mark of the beast will be instated and those who do not take it will be killed.

A final battle will take place with good vs. evil in what scholars believe is the area known as Megiddo (hence Armageddon).

Again, there are a lot of conflicting opinions. Some people believe we are living in the end times. Me, I'm not worried. Either way, I'm sure I will be alright.

I guess my point is what makes things so bad right now that people think this is the end times? I guarantee its because of nuclear weapon technology. Thats the only thing that seperates the now from the unpeaceful history of the world.

[impala454]

Yes.  You've got liberalism figured out.  Liberals want nothing other than to make sure that every man, woman, and child on this planet has access to nuclear and/or biological weapons if they so choose.  It's every human being's right.

that's not what i said at all. plain and simple, a lot of liberals just don't get it. they ask questions like "why can't we just be at peace with these people", "why do we have to go to war", "why don't we try diplomatic solutions". the truth is, people won't always get along. when there are people out there that have a blind, unrelenting hatred towards you and want to kill you, it becomes impossible to be diplomatic with them. it turns into a kill or be killed situation. typical liberal argument is that a "kill or be killed" situation can always be avoided somehow. imho this is a very naive view.

[Mommy]

honestly, i see it from both sides. I dont think its that liberals or conservatives dont know whats best. It sometimes is a good idea to repeatedly attempt diplomatic relations because going to war would cost thousands of lives, especially if the people arent backing a dictator govt. I dont know. I think its kind of pointless to point fingers at liberals or conservatives on this issue. Many think that the other side has an extreme-type view and thats not the case. Liberals feel conservatives always want war and vice versa when a lot of times that just isnt the case.

[FORSAKENR320]

I could have choked on a pretzel.

or a cock

[FORSAKENR320]

I guess my point is what makes things so bad right now that people think this is the end times? I guarantee its because of nuclear weapon technology. Thats the only thing that seperates the now from the unpeaceful history of the world.

what is funny is that attitude that you reflect on nuclear weapons was once inflicted upon the airplane.

[FORSAKENR320]

honestly, i see it from both sides. I dont think its that liberals or conservatives dont know whats best. It sometimes is a good idea to repeatedly attempt diplomatic relations because going to war would cost thousands of lives, especially if the people arent backing a dictator govt. I dont know. I think its kind of pointless to point fingers at liberals or conservatives on this issue. Many think that the other side has an extreme-type view and thats not the case. Liberals feel conservatives always want war and vice versa when a lot of times that just isnt the case.

diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie" while discreetly picking up a big rock

[Mommy]

diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie" while discreetly picking up a big rock

GO FETCH

[impala454]

Im just trying to say that we havent really blown a chunk out of the side of the planet yet because nuclear weapons havent been around that long. Thank God for that and I seriously mean that. I dont think any of us would be here today if that technology was centuries old. So its not really that our world is perse peaceful, but rather it is just new to the technology that could kill millions in a shorter amount of time. It took Hitler how many years to kill 11 million people? With technology advances, you could cut that time down to a couple of days.

well yeah they haven't been around that long compared to the full history of war, but the first nuke was dropped almost 65 years ago. and those bombs, while terrible, were babies. the ones we dropped on japan were something like 13-16 kilotons. we've lived in an era where we've had hundreds (maybe thousands) of ICBMs pointed at other countries who also have them pointed at us, tipped with bombs measured in the megatons. We're talking 13,000 tons vs 40,000,000, and much easier to deploy. And that's a single warhead... I think most missles have multiple warheads, and we have thousands of missles. The fact that we have lived the past 40 or however many years with this kind of firepower not getting used says something about how far our civilization has come in preserving peace. Sure there's been some wars & small countries battling, but nothing near as bad as we'd seen 30 years ago +.

Basically my point is, our ability to kill massive amounts of people has increased to an amount almost inconceivable, while the amount of killing that actually happens has decreased by just as much.

Check out these rough totals just in American deaths:

Civil War: 364,511
WW1: 116,516
WW2: 405,399
Korea: 36,574
Vietnam: 58,209
Persian Gulf: 382
Recent Iraq: 2,637

If the right people so desired, they could press a few buttons and kill 10x as many as all of those numbers totaled right now. But it hasn't happened. To me that says we're doing pretty damn well in staying peaceful as a whole.

[FORSAKENR320]

well yeah they haven't been around that long compared to the full history of war, but the first nuke was dropped almost 65 years ago. and those bombs, while terrible, were babies. the ones we dropped on japan were something like 13-16 kilotons. we've lived in an era where we've had hundreds (maybe thousands) of ICBMs pointed at other countries who also have them pointed at us, tipped with bombs measured in the megatons. We're talking 13,000 tons vs 40,000,000, and much easier to deploy. And that's a single warhead... I think most missles have multiple warheads, and we have thousands of missles. The fact that we have lived the past 40 or however many years with this kind of firepower not getting used says something about how far our civilization has come in preserving peace. Sure there's been some wars & small countries battling, but nothing near as bad as we'd seen 30 years ago +.

Basically my point is, our ability to kill massive amounts of people has increased to an amount almost inconceivable, while the amount of killing that actually happens has decreased by just as much.

Check out these rough totals just in American deaths:

Civil War: 364,511
WW1: 116,516
WW2: 405,399
Korea: 36,574
Vietnam: 58,209
Persian Gulf: 382
Recent Iraq: 2,637

If the right people so desired, they could press a few buttons and kill 10x as many as all of those numbers totaled right now. But it hasn't happened. To me that says we're doing pretty damn well in staying peaceful as a whole.

40 years is a relatively short time. we still have people alive that remmeber that time period in all it's gory horror. but what happens when the shock value of having them wears off? when people no longer remember the devastation, or worse, revel in it, not knowing the true horror of what they are handling? it's a matter of time is all. do i believe we should get rid of nuklear weapons? sure, i also believe we should go back to sword and spear style warfare. will it happen?

no.

can it happen?

no

because humans are always searching for that bigger better club.

[Hartmann]

or a cock

nope, wouldn't happen unless I was already dead.

[FORSAKENR320]

nope, wouldn't happen unless I was already dead.

can be arranged