Kerry endorses Obama Options

[Hartmann]

There is NOTHING wrong with socialized healthcare.

The only thing "wrong" with it is the incorrect spin placed on it and scare tactics utilized by opponents (tactics started by pharm companies, medical corporations, and doctors who enjoy ripping out a patient's asshole with bills).

YES, doctors make less under such a system. The make a mid-range six-figure salary. Ohhhhhhhh, the horror, they'll STARVE!!!

lolz

There are several issues with universal healthcare. Just because you don't think they are issues does not make them non-issues.

Your last sentence actually points out a flaw in the system and the move to socialism. Doctors provide a needed service and therefore can make more money than other people. They are also more skilled than, say, a computer programmer. Why should they not make six figures? You make it sound like the motivation for every doctor is money, which I guess for some, it is. However, spending 7+ in school (with lots of debt), is a lot of work to make more money. If anything, we should be trying to keep doctors here in the states as there is an overwhelming number of people getting their training here and then moving overseas.

My main problems with universal healthcare however, are these:

1. Not everyone wants healthcare. There are a good number of Americans who have no interest in getting health insurance, not even if it was mandatory. Why should those people pay into something that they will never use (this same concept can be used for those who don't want social security)? Also, will the government fine these people for not paying in? Hillary's language is pretty much "mandatory" healthcare while Obama's is more fuzzy.

2. The main problem isn't the healthcare system, the periphery is. The insurance and drug companies are the problem. Ever since 1997 when it became legal to advertise prescription drugs on television and billboards we have seen an increase in the cost of healthcare. The insurance companies saw potential and have stuck with it and they've ignored preventive care.

3. People who need/want healthcare can get it for an inexpensive price tag, the problem is, they don't do it. There are lots of options for less expensive, good healthcare. I priced self-paid insurance for me this morning, $80/month with the benefits of everything I have at work right now.

4. It is the first true step to socialism. We already have government intervention in other areas, now we're getting government intervention with possible mandatory participation. No thanks.

5. Taxes. Anyone who does not think we will see a minor and even significant tax increase is sorely mistaken. Utopias of healthcare for everyone don't come cheap, just ask a Canadian, they pay nearly 50% of their income away in taxes, leading to retirement problems later on. Yeah, sure, when they're 80 they'll still have access to a hospital for "free" but they will also still be working.

6. Waste. There is a lot of waste associated with universal healthcare. Again, ask a Canadian. Why? Well there is no incentive to produce anything efficiently or cheaply because it is government funds being used to pay for it.

Anyway, those are my issues with universal healthcare. I don't deny there is a healthcare problem in the U.S. I just think there are other ways to affectively change it for the better.

[Hartmann]

Yeah there is. Our government can't even manage school systems properly. Why should I trust them to manage my healthcare? They'll just layer it with even more bureaucracy, making it more expensive than it already is. Fuck that!

That having been said, the HMO system is largely FUCKED UP and bloated and much more expensive than it needs to be.

You said it a lot more succinctly than I did. And yes, the HMO system is a mess (which is why I think everyone should use a PPO if they can).

[Oasis]

Is it true that Obama smokes cigarettes?

[impala454]

Not sure how John Kerry's endorsement makes any difference but ok.

[Testm0nkey]

ive never known anyone who didnt want health care/health insurance unless you count super uneducated people that also dont believe in services they pay into like the police and fire department. they dont care until their leg is broke, baby is sick or their house is burning down. and i think it SHOULD be mandatory especially for families. i dont want a stupid parent not wanting to pay in thus not looking out for their childrens health which would happen all the time

[impala454]

ive never known anyone who didnt want health care/health insurance unless you count super uneducated people that also dont believe in services they pay into like the police and fire department. they dont care until their leg is broke, baby is sick or their house is burning down. and i think it SHOULD be mandatory especially for families. i dont want a stupid parent not wanting to pay in thus not looking out for their childrens health which would happen all the time

Healthcare is privatized right now, so what happens when the poor family with no insurance breaks their leg? They go to the crap hospital ER nearby and get treatment, on my dime (taxes). So if we went to communist healthcare (hillary), now everybody gets treatment on my dime. So who are we really bailing out here? Large corporate giants (and even small businesses) who currently pay for their employees health insurance like they should. You're taking a privately paid for benefit and burdening the taxpayer's money with its costs. Not to mention removing the choice of doctors, which lowers healthcare quality in general (why should a doctor care how good his services are if you're forced to see him by the govt?). Very stupid idea IMHO.

[FORSAKENR320]

they just better make sure no fucking wetbacks can benifit from it. i'm tired of illegals mooching shit. don't deport them, shoot at them till they leave voluntarily

fuck those wetback fucks

[impala454]

lol

[Psykopath]

Ah yes, Reaganistic fears: "The commies are coming! Oh noes oh noes!"

1. Not everyone wants healthcare. There are a good number of Americans who have no interest in getting health insurance, not even if it was mandatory. Why should those people pay into something that they will never use (this same concept can be used for those who don't want social security)? Also, will the government fine these people for not paying in? Hillary's language is pretty much "mandatory" healthcare while Obama's is more fuzzy.

OMG....are you actually trying to be serious with this statement?!?!?!?!?!?
I almost don't want to touch this one, because it's so hilariously wrong, for lack of a better term.
When someone gets hit by a car, finds out they have cancer at a routine check up, gets severe food poisoning, etc. etc. etc., do you think they would like a little healthcare then?
Nah, you're right....fuck it. Who needs healthcare?

2. The main problem isn't the healthcare system, the periphery is. The insurance and drug companies are the problem. Ever since 1997 when it became legal to advertise prescription drugs on television and billboards we have seen an increase in the cost of healthcare. The insurance companies saw potential and have stuck with it and they've ignored preventive care.

I agree with the bold part. Pharm and insurance companies care little if nothing for people anymore. Lightly treat during, instead of preventing. =(

3. People who need/want healthcare can get it for an inexpensive price tag, the problem is, they don't do it. There are lots of options for less expensive, good healthcare. I priced self-paid insurance for me this morning, $80/month with the benefits of everything I have at work right now.

Inexpensive for certain cases, ridiculous in others. It depends on a myriad of factors to qualify for "inexpensive" healthcare, and much of the language to work ones way through to see if you qualify is extremely confusing (again, fuck you insurance companies).

4. It is the first true step to socialism. We already have government intervention in other areas, now we're getting government intervention with possible mandatory participation. No thanks.

So Universal Healthcare = what? Stalin?
haha, wow.
Let's eliminate ALL socialsm in the US. No fire, police, libraries, museums, public schools, parks, etc. etc. etc.

5. Taxes. Anyone who does not think we will see a minor and even significant tax increase is sorely mistaken. Utopias of healthcare for everyone don't come cheap, just ask a Canadian, they pay nearly 50% of their income away in taxes, leading to retirement problems later on. Yeah, sure, when they're 80 they'll still have access to a hospital for "free" but they will also still be working.

Yep, taxes would increase...never said they wouldn't. (Unless they found some magical way to balance/correct the budget without all the wasteful spending of today.)
I think figures are being exaggerated though (on both sides of the argument) as far as actual tax amounts vs. income and all that.



From here it looks like roughly 25% of total taxes, income and NI, for what would equate to the average US income.

6. Waste. There is a lot of waste associated with universal healthcare. Again, ask a Canadian. Why? Well there is no incentive to produce anything efficiently or cheaply because it is government funds being used to pay for it.

Again, I think this is another point that is exaggerated.
Do you think there is no waste in our current system? Go to any medical themed facility (hospital, clinic, pharmacy, nursing home, etc.) in the US and you'll see there is lots of waste.





Sorry if I was an ass in this post. Just a little e-fun, Hartmann.

::EDIT::
FUCK, that graph came out horribly, at least with my backround. Sorry about that...

This post has been edited by Psykopath: Jan 10 2008, 04:52 PM

[impala454]

Why do you guys have it in your head that healthcare is so screwed up? Everyone gets this idea around election time for some stupid reason. Where do these stupid statements of "insurance & pharm companies don't care about people anymore" come from? How many of you participating in this thread have broken your leg and had it go untreated due to the horrible healthcare system we have here? Gimme a friggin break.

[Psykopath]

Why do you guys have it in your head that healthcare is so screwed up? Everyone gets this idea around election time for some stupid reason. Where do these stupid statements of "insurance & pharm companies don't care about people anymore" come from?

You obviously don't have family working in the healthcare industry.
Insurance and pharmaceutical companies are very combative with the customer and less helpful in prevention.

Oh, and I don't just hate on the healthcare industry every 4 years, but you can continue to think so if it makes you feel better.

[Spectatrix]

ive never known anyone who didnt want health care/health insurance unless you count super uneducated people that also dont believe in services they pay into like the police and fire department. they dont care until their leg is broke, baby is sick or their house is burning down. and i think it SHOULD be mandatory especially for families. i dont want a stupid parent not wanting to pay in thus not looking out for their childrens health which would happen all the time

Young, healthy males are generally the ones who don't want insurance. Exactly the people that socialized systems depend on because they help keep overall costs down. I am highly opposed to mandatory enrollment.

[Mommy]

Why do you guys have it in your head that healthcare is so screwed up? Everyone gets this idea around election time for some stupid reason. Where do these stupid statements of "insurance & pharm companies don't care about people anymore" come from? How many of you participating in this thread have broken your leg and had it go untreated due to the horrible healthcare system we have here? Gimme a friggin break.

I believe Cathryn had an incident where her appendix ruptured or something and she didnt go to the hospital because it was $$$$ until she almost died.... or something like that.

I need hand surgery from a broken hand injury I had, but I cant afford it.

[impala454]

You obviously don't have family working in the healthcare industry.

Why would it matter if I had family working in the healthcare industry?

Insurance and pharmaceutical companies are very combative with the customer and less helpful in prevention.

Oh really... kinda like... oh... every other business in existence? Cell phone, cable, satellite, internet, auto shops, pretty much any business where customer service is employed. Either way, how would communizing healthcare solve customer service issues? And how does bad customer service = bad healthcare?

Oh, and I don't just hate on the healthcare industry every 4 years, but you can continue to think so if it makes you feel better.

You can deny it if it makes you feel better.

[Oasis]

Is it true that Obama smokes cigarettes?