And they say they're a peaceful people Options

[pebkac]

The entire Middle East has the exact same problem that Africa has. When Britain left the region, they arbitrarily drew national boundaries instead of dividing them up based on the tribes that inhabited the areas. Thus you have countries like Iraq that are home to three different factions: The Kurds, the Shiites, and the Sunnies.

Thus, the only REAL solution to the problem that I see is to do away with every nation in the region and divide it up again, which obviously isn't feasible.

Thus the only nations that see stability are the ones with Saddams or nations that are easily dominated by one faction.

[Hartmann]

The entire Middle East has the exact same problem that Africa has. When Britain left the region, they arbitrarily drew national boundaries instead of dividing them up based on the tribes that inhabited the areas. Thus you have countries like Iraq that are home to three different factions: The Kurds, the Shiites, and the Sunnies.

Thus, the only REAL solution to the problem that I see is to do away with every nation in the region and divide it up again, which obviously isn't feasible.

Thus the only nations that see stability are the ones with Saddams or nations that are easily dominated by one faction.

That's an explanation for Iraq but I am looking at more of the Middle East as a whole. The problems in Gaza have nothing to do with tribes and everything to do with power and control of people. It also has to do with greed because one group wants to receive the aid and distribute it the way it sees fit (which could be 'not at all').

[cupcake]

does anyone see Hamas as the destabling force here? It seems almost as if they are trying to sandwich Israel, even at the expense of the Palestinian Authority and Lebanon.

[pebkac]

That's an explanation for Iraq but I am looking at more of the Middle East as a whole. The problems in Gaza have nothing to do with tribes and everything to do with power and control of people. It also has to do with greed because one group wants to receive the aid and distribute it the way it sees fit (which could be 'not at all').

I think that's a valid generalization of the Middle East as a whole. Israel is a bit of an exception, but I think it's still a very similar problem. I would argue that the state was doomed to this fate since its inception. Now you can agree or disagree with whether it was a good idea due to the whole "promised land" thing, but once you displace that many people, you're going to create resentment. I mean, it's the same thing we've seen throughout history with varying levels of violence.

Irregardless, I suppose we can both agree on the point that there's no easy solution to the problem. My point though, is that I don't think it's anything that's inherently wrong with the people of the Middle East (specifically the Palestinians). I think that all the people in the area are a product of their environment.

[Mommy]

yup... not peaceful at all. I think Israel's people are peaceful amongst themselves and with others. They just have taken a more offensive stance to their situation with the neighboring Muslim nations.

I dont know if you meant Arab when you siad "they"... In my opinon Israel is NOT an Arab nation... I know many disagree with this which is why I commented on Israel.

[Hartmann]

I think that's a valid generalization of the Middle East as a whole. Israel is a bit of an exception, but I think it's still a very similar problem. I would argue that the state was doomed to this fate since its inception. Now you can agree or disagree with whether it was a good idea due to the whole "promised land" thing, but once you displace that many people, you're going to create resentment. I mean, it's the same thing we've seen throughout history with varying levels of violence.

Irregardless, I suppose we can both agree on the point that there's no easy solution to the problem. My point though, is that I don't think it's anything that's inherently wrong with the people of the Middle East (specifically the Palestinians). I think that all the people in the area are a product of their environment.

I do agree with you to a certain degree but I think it is unfair to dump this on the British and say it's their fault for the problems and tribulations of the Middle East. I mean, the Christians living in Spain don't blame their hardships on Muslims simply because the Moors were there long ago.

The Arab people's culture hasn't changed in centuries (or much at all for that matter).

I am not saying there is something wrong with the people, I am saying there is something wrong with the culture, which I would then carefully say ties in with religion. The Christians living in Lebanon are not violent at all, yet they have to endure infighting. While that's a broad generalization I think it applies as you look at the Arab states as a whole.

It's also one reason why I think negotiating with Iran (through the UN or whatever) is a waste of time. Culturally these people want what they want and don't care about negotiating. I am going through a few history pages right now and trying to find anything that looks like a successful negotiation (outside of Israel) and there is very little. The only one that really pops out is the Grand Mufti and Hitler (oh, oops, this thread just got Godwin's Law applied)

[Hartmann]

does anyone see Hamas as the destabling force here? It seems almost as if they are trying to sandwich Israel, even at the expense of the Palestinian Authority and Lebanon.

Hamas is an extremely large destabling force. They have so much pull by being the bully on the block that no one notices. If Hamas succeeds then I would pretty much put money on them making a full out assault on Israel and that will lead to a lot of bloodshed throughout the Gaza strip and Lebanon because the Israelis aren't going to sit back and play it safe. They'll fight fire with fire and they'll win.

[cupcake]

Hamas is an extremely large destabling force. They have so much pull by being the bully on the block that no one notices. If Hamas succeeds then I would pretty much put money on them making a full out assault on Israel and that will lead to a lot of bloodshed throughout the Gaza strip and Lebanon because the Israelis aren't going to sit back and play it safe. They'll fight fire with fire and they'll win.

oh, I know. and then Iran will join in...

and then...

[impala454]

FUCKING LEARN TO READ EVERYTHING IDIOT

uh the things you pasted aren't even related. I know cupcake knows there's no peace. I simply disagreed that heavy handed dictatorships wouldn't bring peace to the people.

impala failed reading comprehension 101

check out my sig

lol... you still didn't read the whole thing in context. glad to see it still bugs you though.

[cupcake]

I simply disagreed that heavy handed dictatorships wouldn't bring peace to the people.

peace to me is "the people" not fighting. be that by control and oppression, or liberty.

edit: this is not in defense of dictatorships, just illustrating the peaceful arab nations are the one ruled by fear. it's all they comprehend.

[impala454]

I think the dictatorships and large followings of one sect can lead to stability within their respective countries, but instability within the region as a whole.

[cupcake]

agreed

[pebkac]

I do agree with you to a certain degree but I think it is unfair to dump this on the British and say it's their fault for the problems and tribulations of the Middle East. I mean, the Christians living in Spain don't blame their hardships on Muslims simply because the Moors were there long ago.

The Arab people's culture hasn't changed in centuries (or much at all for that matter).

I am not saying there is something wrong with the people, I am saying there is something wrong with the culture, which I would then carefully say ties in with religion. The Christians living in Lebanon are not violent at all, yet they have to endure infighting. While that's a broad generalization I think it applies as you look at the Arab states as a whole.

It's also one reason why I think negotiating with Iran (through the UN or whatever) is a waste of time. Culturally these people want what they want and don't care about negotiating. I am going through a few history pages right now and trying to find anything that looks like a successful negotiation (outside of Israel) and there is very little. The only one that really pops out is the Grand Mufti and Hitler (oh, oops, this thread just got Godwin's Law applied)

I suppose that I can agree with you in most respects. The only thing I would disagree on (and I might be misunderstanding your point here) is that I would view their culture as more of a catalyst than a root cause. I mean, look at the examples of Ireland or the Native Americans. Granted neither example shows the kind of deep seated hatred or continued violence that we're seeing in the Middle East, but both ended up resulting in violence.

[Hartmann]

I find it funny that the main (stated) reason that Hamas is so adamant over getting Fatah out of power is because Fatah was too moderate...

Yes, Arafat was a moderate