Do you believe you have Free Will?, a philosophical debate Options

[Mommy]

how the hell did this get into talking about reflexes??? wtf do reflexes have to do with free will?? you're saying it's a subconscious reflex action that I choose to get a steak instead of chicken when I go to a restaurant?

I have gone to texas roadhouse about 6 times in the past 2 months. I have had steak 4 times, chicken two times, and a random three of those times, I got that yummy side of ribs. now I want one of you dipshits to explain to me how that food arrived at my table. from the time I sat down and was handed a menu, to the time I recieved my food. I'd really love to see all of you explain how no decision was made by me, Chuck, and by Chuck I mean, the person who you would point at and say "that person is Chuck", the whole Chuck, brain and all, and nothing but the Chuck, so help me God. Amen.

People are not saying that you dont have actions that are performed by you. What they are saying is that every decision you make is influenced by something else. Nothing is random. Decisions can only be made when there isnt some physical/emotional/spiritual entity that influences you to chose one thing over another. I know it sounds really stupid, most philosophical arguements are. Think about WHY you chose what you did though. Perhaps you chose chicken because the last time you were there you had steak. Your decision to chose chicken was determined by the fact that you ate steak there last time. All actions/"choices" can be traced back through a series of events. Evolution is a perfect example of determinism. The enviroment an animal lives is determines how it will evolve to better adapt.



Here are some definitions that may help you:



1) Determinism: the idea that everything in this world that occurs is determined by its environment, precious actions, etc

2) Free will: the idea that a human has a choice that is not influenced and that we ultimately have complete control over our lives/a decision/ a course of action

3) Fatalism: The idea that no matter what has happened in the past, some event will occur. Many people confuse this with determinism because the end result is the same. Like in your example of eating at Texas Roadhouse.... with determinism, past events (like you having had steak the last time) caused you to chose a certain way. With fatalism, you still chose the chicken, but not because of previous events or your environment but because you were fated by God or some other higher power to do so.

4) Random: No influence but events are completely random and are not determined or caused. The just occur

[impala454]

it doesn't matter if there's influence, you're still making a decision. if you are presented with choices and make a selection, that's what a decision is!

in this argument it doesn't matter why I chose steak or chicken, all that matters is that I made the choice, not anyone else.

do what I said, tell me how the food arrived at my table step by step. hell i'll do it:

Waitress says: "what would you like to drink sir?" sometimes I said dr pepper, sometimes i said tea, sometimes i said water. those are the general three drinks I tend to order at restaurants. I didn't really consider any other drinks, because those are the ones I like at restaurants. that's not necessarily the choices I was presented with though. Obviously the restaurant offers way more than those three. Sure my previous experiences and tastes did narrow it down, but they didn't make the decision for me.

your fatalism idea doesn't work either, because I seldom recall what I had last time, or even think about it unless I had a bad experience. and besides, if that's your only basis for the lack of free will, then apparently all humans have free will when they are crapped outta the hatchet wound, but then once they've made a couple of key decisions in life they're stripped of it.

[Mommy]

it doesn't matter if there's influence, you're still making a decision. if you are presented with choices and make a selection, that's what a decision is!

in this argument it doesn't matter why I chose steak or chicken, all that matters is that I made the choice, not anyone else.

do what I said, tell me how the food arrived at my table step by step. hell i'll do it:

Waitress says: "what would you like to drink sir?" sometimes I said dr pepper, sometimes i said tea, sometimes i said water. those are the general three drinks I tend to order at restaurants. I didn't really consider any other drinks, because those are the ones I like at restaurants. that's not necessarily the choices I was presented with though. Obviously the restaurant offers way more than those three. Sure my previous experiences and tastes did narrow it down, but they didn't make the decision for me.

your fatalism idea doesn't work either, because I seldom recall what I had last time, or even think about it unless I had a bad experience. and besides, if that's your only basis for the lack of free will, then apparently all humans have free will when they are crapped outta the hatchet wound, but then once they've made a couple of key decisions in life they're stripped of it.

I think your biggest problem here is that you want to believe a certain way. Thats cool. Im just saying that these are the things that are talked about in philosophy classes. You have to step outside of your box of what you WANT to believe and conceptualize how it MIGHT be

[impala454]

i do conceptualize how it might be, but in this case it just doesn't make sense to me. i am actually very open minded, I'll listen to anyone's opinion on anything. if it doesn't make any sense to me though, i can't really accept it can i? maybe it simply seems i'm very closed minded because i tend to duck and run if there's a thread where i've run out of points or opinions (which is how it should be right?). although some on here tend to lash back at me and tell me about my problems or that i'm a closed minded asshole when they run out of points & opinions.

what's really weird about this thread is that the vote is 14-5 but I seem to be the only one backing free will (save for the couple that have chimed in with "yes we have free will").

[cupcake]

impala stepping outside the box?

that would cause a rift in the universe and turn matter into antimatter.

[impala454]

i step outside my box when someone gives me good reason to. not seein it here.

[Mommy]

i do conceptualize how it might be, but in this case it just doesn't make sense to me. i am actually very open minded, I'll listen to anyone's opinion on anything. if it doesn't make any sense to me though, i can't really accept it can i? maybe it simply seems i'm very closed minded because i tend to duck and run if there's a thread where i've run out of points or opinions (which is how it should be right?). although some on here tend to lash back at me and tell me about my problems or that i'm a closed minded asshole when they run out of points & opinions.

what's really weird about this thread is that the vote is 14-5 but I seem to be the only one backing free will (save for the couple that have chimed in with "yes we have free will").

I wasnt calling you an asshole or saying you are closed minded. Philosophical discussions in my opinion cant be counted against a person if they dont want to imagine a certain way. I think its good to be open minded with religion and culture, but philosophical open mindedness is a completely different can of worms. I may not believe a lot of what I hear philosophically but it is still fun and interesting to argue both sides. I can see where people can think a certain way, but I wouldnt believe that way. You know what I mean?

[impala454]

oh yeah i didnt' mean you were callin me a closed minded asshole, just sayin it does happen often from some people on here. and yeah the philosophical view on even the simplest thing is often times pretty dumb and pointless imho (no offense). i took a philosophy class and while it was interesting to think about things the way they do sometimes, it seemed largely useless to me.

[chook]

I lost at Madden today, there is no free will!

[Testm0nkey]

what impala doesnt understand is the seperation of the mind brain and body. they are three entirely independent things. impala is thinking of his mind and saying his mind is himself and thats where he makes his decisions. yes your mind is yourself, thats your consciousness but can you describe the science of how this works? no you cant because its impossible. its not as simple as "i wanted tea instead of coke".

ill break it down but im not sure youll understand what it means in the big picture.
the idea of mental causation -
Libet's study over this exact argument

libet was a dualist. he felt that nonmaterial thought causes behavior. like impala. he wanted to believe in free will like everyone. he wanted to feel safe and secure that he makes his own decisions.
so he set up this really engenious experiment. he had volunteers set up to machines to read their brain waves. he informed them to move their finger sometime within 2 minutes. he wanted to understand this intention for action and measure the impulse by looking at their brain waves. ( i dont think youre arguing your brain doesnt control movement and have something to do with action in your body. if you are youre a lost case).
this is what he found. he found the CONSCIOUS intention to move their finger a measured time AFTER the brain activity spike. your brain isnt that slow that brain impulse happens and seconds later your body responds. we never would have evolved. so this solved the problem of mental causation. the nervous system determines behavior and sends the idea to consciousness. free will question? consciousness caused by brain. the consciousness itself doesnt do anything. epiphenomenalism = consciousness after the fact. nervous system (brain is a part of it) controls everything you do. consciousness tells you what was already determined for you and gives you idea that you had something to do with it

can you see what this study does for the argument of free will?
the one glaring problem in this is the "explanatory gap" how do you go from neurons to conscious thought? its hard to describe consciousness other than saying yes we have it. where is it, whats its role, are we the only ones to have it? the only real theory thats universally excepted is not every living thing has a consciousness because to have consciousness you have to be self aware no? so only higher up organisms with more recent brain evolutions like the cerebral cortex have it. so it must be somewhere in there. in the front top fanciest part of your brain

[impala454]

of course we have impulse, reflex reactions, but deciding what to drink at a restaurant isn't one of them. there's a different between an unconcsious reaction and a decision. if someone comes up behind me and screams, my reaction is to jump, but I make a conscious decision to turn and see wtf is goin on.

you guys are looking way too deep here imho. look at the inputs and the results. someone asks me what I want to drink, and then I tell them what I want to drink. what happens in between is irrelevant, because the entity that is me responded to the query with a decision. the lump sitting in the chair, brain, mind, body, soul and all was asked a question, and made a response.

[John6.7]

I guess it would be hard to know if one has free will or not.
Every action made could just eventually lead to the same conclusion.
But then the choices different people make would interfere and then the pre made conclusion would not happen.

If there was no free will (i.e. there is a god) then I would find it hard to believe that a god would plan for some of the sick and fucked up things that happen in this world.

And now my head hurts from trying to come up with proof about not having free will.

[The Fanatic]

Where did this thread come from?? Work consumes too much of my time! I miss the sweet loving embrace of Techsans...

[Billy]

It is absolutely silly to argue with Impala. It is the equivalent of arguing with a 15 year old. No matter how superior your argument is to his, he will always believe he is right.

When he starts on a side subject of "My brain is me, and every decision my brain makes, I make" and then people proceed to show examples of how your brain my perform functions and make decisions without his conscious participation, then he proceeds with "How does this have anything to do with Free Will?", it's time to call it quits. Impala, please learn how to make connections. Until then, either always go into an argument with the assumption you are wrong and make every effort to learn from others, or do not go into the argument all. For your sake. Otherwise, you're just wasting your time.

[TetraGrammaton C...]

what is life but time wasted and time lost?

i plan to spend my time wasted.

the only time now is party time.