Should college atheletes get paid? Options

[The Fanatic]

I say abolish athletics and replace them with NCAA gladiatorial matches

Lions vs. University Of Texas Gladiators

[impala454]

a chance to pay in the NFL and make millions is a reason to excel

right but they're bringing in millions to the university now. what happens to a player who does that, then gets hurt before going to the NFL? They made the university millions but never see a dime.

What about students who do research for the university & bring money into the university, do they get a check cut to them too?

the difference here though is regular students are allowed and even encouraged to make money in their field before graduating. the NCAA doesn't allow any player to make money via football, yet it allows the university to profit off of them. I remember a senior project in computer science that had the potential to actually be sold to other universities, and we were told that if it did, we'd recieve royalties. NCAA atheletes have no such option.

what about the minority students who go to college & make the university look better & more diverse, do they get a check too since all those minority groups praise the college for it's rich diversity?

this isn't really related to the discussion as there's no massive amount of money being made by the university simply because they have minority students.

[theIncredibleEdi...]

right but they're bringing in millions to the university now. what happens to a player who does that, then gets hurt before going to the NFL? They made the university millions but never see a dime.
the difference here though is regular students are allowed and even encouraged to make money in their field before graduating. the NCAA doesn't allow any player to make money via football, yet it allows the university to profit off of them. I remember a senior project in computer science that had the potential to actually be sold to other universities, and we were told that if it did, we'd recieve royalties. NCAA atheletes have no such option.
this isn't really related to the discussion as there's no massive amount of money being made by the university simply because they have minority students.

Actually, the idea that collegiate athletic programs make a profit is a falsehood. There are, i believe, 3 or 4 Division IA Universities that actually turn a profit from their athletic programs. The rest of the Universities actually end up having to cover the deficit for what the athletic program spends. Think of Tech...do you really think they're making any profit when on home football games they house the entire team and support staff in hotels and feed them and take them to movies and bus them around? How about Men's basketball which gets to take Lear jets to away games? Yeah...no....so, there's really no profit to pay the players.

[impala454]

Actually, the idea that collegiate athletic programs make a profit is a falsehood. There are, i believe, 3 or 4 Division IA Universities that actually turn a profit from their athletic programs. The rest of the Universities actually end up having to cover the deficit for what the athletic program spends. Think of Tech...do you really think they're making any profit when on home football games they house the entire team and support staff in hotels and feed them and take them to movies and bus them around? How about Men's basketball which gets to take Lear jets to away games? Yeah...no....so, there's really no profit to pay the players.

sorry but you're wrong.

football... our average attendance this year was right around 50,000. say 10k are students and 10k are season ticket holders. 30,000 tickets at a minimum of $50 a piece. that's 1.5 million a game, just in tickets. not to mention the 10k people w/season tickets paid a absolute minimum of $150, there's another 1.5 mil. The students all paid their athletic fee... Lord only knows what that's gone up to (it was $100 when I was there), call that another 1 million. We're up to a very conservative 11.5 million in tickets alone and we haven't sold a single $4 coke, $6 program, or $30 parking space yet. And this is all just the game itself. Check out this 44 page list of paid licensees of Texas Tech merchandise. Hell, in the ONE case of that store, their back royalties they owed was 2.2 million dollars, and that's one store! We also haven't see a single dollar from all the hundreds (maybe thousands) of signs & banners in the stadium, or from the alumni association. And this is only one sport, for only half the year!

basketball... avg ticket price is about $15. we have what, 15,000 seats? probably 3k are students? 12x15=$180,000 per game x 16 games x 2 teams (men & women) = 5.76 million, and again that's only in tickets, and for half the school year. that's conservative, and like above, doesn't include advertising or concession dollars (which are no doubt way more than what these tickets add up to).

none of these have even touched the TV dollars or lump sum bowl game money.

and the men's bball team doesn't take chartered jets, they fly southwest. including bobby knight himself. and the football team takes chartered busses, including mike leach.

you're talkin about money spent taking a visiting football team to the movies? give me a freakin break. if they even had to pay for it (which i doubt, lots of stuff like that gets donated), 100 people x $8 = $800. big deal.. 16 people buy a ticket for the game and that's paid for.

trust me, athletic programs make money, if they didn't, we wouldn't have big elaborate stadiums and coaches making 4 million a year (and ticket prices reaching the $50-100 mark). those schools who aren't as big as tech, ok maybe they don't sell 50,000 tickets a game, but any major NCAA athletics program has no problem making their budget. especially when it's a big football school.

[impala454]

or if you want to skip my large rambling post, see for yourself on the NCAA budget & finances site:

(warning, 35MB PDF) http://www.ncaa.org/library/research/i_ii_..._d2_rev_exp.pdf

page 31 gives the details:
for Div 1A:
Men's Programs: avg profit was 6.1 million
Women's programs: avg profit was -3.6 million (lol)
other: avg profit was -300k
for a total average profit of 2.2 million dollars, across ALL division 1A schools, even the small shitty ones.

broken into sports on page 36:
Football:
largest reported revenue was 52 million
avg revenue was 13 million
largest reported expenses was 16 million
avg expenses was 7.1 million

this document is actually pretty interesting. it breaks it down into bball and stuff too. if we could just get rid of women's sports we could build us a badass stadium!!

[theIncredibleEdi...]

That's great...for statistics from 2003. Trust me, I've already read that document...in fact I read it before you posted it. Perhaps you should try getting the financial documentation from tech.

Yes, Basketball and Football pull in revenues, but what about the other smaller sports that end up being in the hole? What is made by the big sports ends up covering costs for the smaller ones. You're acting like the athletic program has MILLIONS of dollars in overflow....if they do make a profit its barely above breaking even.

As for the movies/football team, they do that EVERY HOME GAME, and im not talking about just housing the players...they house all the players and the entire staff, and they're not staying in the cheap rooms either. They also feed them and entertain them however they want. For an entire season, THAT'S A LOT OF MONEY. Football and basketball spends a lot of money on the players, they aren't exactly shopping at the Dollar General and buying tickets on priceline.com.

120 people, each gets a hotel room at about 150 bucks a pop. Each gets fed, average 30 bucks per person. Then there is whatever entertainment they want, say average 20 bucks a person (and thats being cheap). That sums up to about....$24,000. And that is leaving out some expenses. Do you have 24+ grand to blow on a single night of fun? That's done for every home game for the football team.

The problem is that you're just looking at Football and Basketball...of course THOSE programs make money, but in the overall picture, most programs barely break even and thats in Division 1A. In order to meet one of the stipulations of Compliance for NCAA/Title IX they have to provide equal opportunities between men and women or women's opportunities in sports is near the percentage of female enrollment in the University (the latter being the easy route), being that women's sports rarely make a profit or only make a small profit, the profits from the men's top grossers (football and basketball) would have to cover costs for those that don't make as much money (many womens sports, and smaller interest sports like the Olympic sports). I dont know about you, but the many Lady Raider games that I have been to DONT sell out every time. Same with women's volleyball. Sure there is money to build great stadiums and facilities, but its not as if the University has paid those off within 5 years of being built. Those are paid for for many years, and operating costs arent exactly cheap. Did you know that they power the ENTIRE United Spirit Arena every day for the teams to practice. I doubt thats very cheap to do.

Lower divisions are in the hole every year and have to seek assistance. Pulling in an excess of money would afterall defeat the purpose of the NCAA being a non-profit entity. As for your comment about getting rid of women's sports to get a great stadium....thats a FANTASTIC idea. Only flaw is that the University would fail to meet Compliance and lose its spot with the NCAA.

[impala454]

That's great...for statistics from 2003.

if you look at that document, it shows a drammatically increasing profit trend from 1985 to 2003. if you think between 2003 and now the trend has taken a downturn... i'd be interested to hear why.

Yes, Basketball and Football pull in revenues, but what about the other smaller sports that end up being in the hole? What is made by the big sports ends up covering costs for the smaller ones. You're acting like the athletic program has MILLIONS of dollars in overflow....if they do make a profit its barely above breaking even.

did you read the statistics? the total average PROFITS for div 1 athletics programs was 2.2 million dollars. not revenue, profits (as in, the money left over after you've paid for all of your expenses ).

Lower divisions are in the hole every year and have to seek assistance. Pulling in an excess of money would afterall defeat the purpose of the NCAA being a non-profit entity.

yeah div II and III are generally in the hole, because they don't sell 50,000 tickets a game. but that's not what we were talking about. this thread is about big time schools. you said that there is only 3 or 4 div I schools turning a profit at all. look at the data and you'll see how wrong that is. and the NCAA being a non-profit organization has nothing to do with a school's athletic program. the two are separate entities.

120 people, each gets a hotel room at about 150 bucks a pop. Each gets fed, average 30 bucks per person. Then there is whatever entertainment they want, say average 20 bucks a person (and thats being cheap). That sums up to about....$24,000. And that is leaving out some expenses. Do you have 24+ grand to blow on a single night of fun? The problem is that you're just looking at Football and Basketball...of course THOSE programs make money, but in the overall picture, most programs barely break even and thats in Division 1A. In order to meet one of the stipulations of Compliance for NCAA/Title IX they have to provide equal opportunities between men and women, being that women's sports rarely make a profit or only make a small profit, the profits from the men's top grossers (football and basketball) would have to cover costs for those that don't make as much money (many womens sports, and smaller interest sports like the Olympic sports).

this is absolutely preposterous... you think those 120 people all get their own room? i'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, ok $24,000. how does this offset the several million dollars a game in revenues?

As for your comment about getting rid of women's sports to get a great stadium....thats a FANTASTIC idea. Only flaw is that the University would fail to meet Compliance and lose its spot with the NCAA.

See #3 here

And hey I don't mean to come across as an asshole, but if you're gonna come and tell me I'm wrong and "the idea that collegiate athletic programs make a profit is a falsehood" I'm gonna come back at you with data. and the data doesn't lie in this case. it's also straight from the NCAA.

[theIncredibleEdi...]

I don't think they each get their own room....they do get their own room. I have a friend who works at the hotel that they house the football team at, and I have been one of those staff members who was housed.

And that's ok...you always come across as an asshole. You have since day one. Its par for the course when dealing with you.

And I will probably be back when I've dug up all my course materials that have NEWER statistics, as I took an entire course on this stuff barely a year ago.

[impala454]

I don't think they each get their own room....they do get their own room. I have a friend who works at the hotel that they house the football team at, and I have been one of those staff members who was housed.

oh.. well DAMN that $24,000 will just break the bank then

And that's ok...you always come across as an asshole. You have since day one. Its par for the course when dealing with you.

only par when people come into a thread and call me wrong who's the asshole? the asshole that calls someone wrong with nothing to back it up, or the one that defends his original assessment with factual data?

And I will probably be back when I've dug up all my course materials that have NEWER statistics, as I took an entire course on this stuff barely a year ago.

awesome. i'd love to see some stats that show the average div 1 college athletics program has gone from a 2.2 million dollar profit in 2003 to a deficit in 2006.

[jwttu]

remember we are still paying off the USA and the Jones improvements and the new soccer stadium they are building

[GOB]

new soccer stadium?

[Billy]

Occasionally your argument is sound Impala. Other times it is not. But either way, you always believe you are right and go into a debate with no intention of changing your mind on an issue. So why should anyone do anything other than ignore your argument?

[impala454]

well if I didn't think I was right there wouldn't ever be much debate would there?

although I definitely disagree w/the "no intention of ever changing my mind". it may seem that way, but honestly I enjoy the debates on here because it always makes me think about the topics in different ways. in this particular thread, from having the short debate on this issue, it made me look up actual data, and honestly I was surprised there wasn't more schools athletic programs on the + side.

the reason I think I come across so much as an asshole is because I tend to argue my point pretty fiercely when someone tells me I'm wrong (which is exactly what happened in this case). could I use some more tact? heh yeah probably, but sometimes (such as in this case) a bored/bad day at work can show through my posts

[theIncredibleEdi...]

Ok, so you laugh at my example of expenses of the Tech athletic dept, but that's only ONE of many.

[woody]

Ok, so you laugh at my example of expenses of the Tech athletic dept, but that's only ONE of many.

word

i'mi sure other schools like...William & Mary, Charleston Southern, Bethune-Cookman, North Carolina A&T....etc. just bank on their athletic programs to pay their players