Day of Infamy Options

[impala454]

I dunno, we set foot in Iraq (twice) and they had one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world.

Their Air Force was equipped with Mig-29s and Mirage F-1s. They also had one of the best anti-aircraft missile systems in the world.

You know why they lost? Preemptive strikes and battlefield tactics.

dude, i don't know why i'm still responding. let me space out the sentence separately then on its own line.


I am not, repeat not talking about the difficulty in invading another country.

I am talking about our country's mainland being for all intents & purposes invincible to conventional attack. I.e. similar to the topic... the last time conventional attack touched our soil was 65 years ago (albeit a tiny island way off in the middle of the pacific).


to that end, with your example, can you say you think those iraqi mig-29s & mirage F-1s pose any threat to our mainland? or that some other country would even have the ability to reach our soil with so much as a rock? terrorism is about the only way our country will be attacked. and while terrorism sucks, it doesn't win a war. especially not in a country with as much shear land area and population as we have. the way the world is right now, you will never see in our lifetime see huge divisions of troops making landfall on our shores, or fleets of ships get anywhere near our waters, or enemy planes dropping bombs on our cities.

the last enemy of the united states to wage conventional war on our mainland was the confederates in 1865.


and on a sidenote, if iraq's army was so technologically advanced, why did they call our choppers & guns stuff like "steel bird of fire" and shit? and why were they surrendering in droves instead of using their "advanced" weaponry on us?

[Hartmann]

the last enemy of the united states to wage conventional war on our mainland was the confederates in 1865.
and on a sidenote, if iraq's army was so technologically advanced, why did they call our choppers & guns stuff like "steel bird of fire" and shit? and why were they surrendering in droves instead of using their "advanced" weaponry on us?

When you're promised reinforcements and they never show up, you'd surrender too.

The Apache is a fierce weapon and it'd scare the hell out of me too.

A simple proof that technology does not win a war or the invasion of your home turf, the Germans in WWII. Arguably the most advanced armed forces at the time, they were out fought on their home turf by better trained troops.

By logic of technology, Germany should have won the war and controlled all of Europe and North America, they had better planes, better tanks, better artillery, programmeable missiles, etc.

[Billy]

and on a sidenote, if iraq's army was so technologically advanced, why did they call our choppers & guns stuff like "steel bird of fire" and shit? and why were they surrendering in droves instead of using their "advanced" weaponry on us?

Because it's total nonsense. Iraq's technology did not on any level compare to the USA's. Once the little technology Saddam possessed was taken out, his military quickly fell.

I strongly feel companies like Boeing, Raytheon, Bell Helicopter, L3, Lockheed etc had as much to do with the USA's victory over Iraq as the Marine Corp.

[Billy]

When you're promised reinforcements and they never show up, you'd surrender too.

The Apache is a fierce weapon and it'd scare the hell out of me too.

A simple proof that technology does not win a war or the invasion of your home turf, the Germans in WWII. Arguably the most advanced armed forces at the time, they were out fought on their home turf by better trained troops.

By logic of technology, Germany should have won the war and controlled all of Europe and North America, they had better planes, better tanks, better artillery, programmeable missiles, etc.

Are you seriously trying to compare WW2 technology to what we have today? The technology gap of today is much different than that of 50 years ago.

[impala454]

By logic of technology, Germany should have won the war and controlled all of Europe and North America, they had better planes, better tanks, better artillery, programmeable missiles, etc.

ok... gimme a break... obviously you need technology and decent numbers. germany was vastly outnumbered in WW2. and their "superior" army never set foot on american soil did they?

i wasn't saying technology is the only reason our mainland is untouchable. it is the major determining factor though.

[Divergent Realit...]

ok... gimme a break... obviously you need technology and decent numbers. germany was vastly outnumbered in WW2. and their "superior" army never set foot on american soil did they?

i wasn't saying technology is the only reason our mainland is untouchable. it is the major determining factor though.

the über soldat was not enough!?!?

NOES.

on a side note, hitler is 4 degrees from kevin bacon.

[Hartmann]

ok... gimme a break... obviously you need technology and decent numbers. germany was vastly outnumbered in WW2. and their "superior" army never set foot on american soil did they?

i wasn't saying technology is the only reason our mainland is untouchable. it is the major determining factor though.

You aren't the one that stated technology is the only thing, that was Renegadepeon. Again, I was simply stating that the German Army had superior technology at the time and they could not defend their homeland, I wasn't trying to say we defended against them.

You said America could defend its homeland, I was just giving an example of a time when a country was technologically superior could not defend itself properly. The reason they lost you hit on the head, troop numbers, which is exactly what cupcake and I are trying to point out, Americans would not fight, especially in the way the Germans did, giving up their 15 year-old sons to fight for the Fatherland when defeat is obvious.

[Hartmann]

Are you seriously trying to compare WW2 technology to what we have today? The technology gap of today is much different than that of 50 years ago.

Where in my post do I compare the technology of then to the technology of today? I was making a comparison to similar situations, lots and lots of technology and not enough man power.

[impala454]

You aren't the one that stated technology is the only thing, that was Renegadepeon. Again, I was simply stating that the German Army had superior technology at the time and they could not defend their homeland, I wasn't trying to say we defended against them.

You said America could defend its homeland, I was just giving an example of a time when a country was technologically superior could not defend itself properly. The reason they lost you hit on the head, troop numbers, which is exactly what cupcake and I are trying to point out, Americans would not fight, especially in the way the Germans did, giving up their 15 year-old sons to fight for the Fatherland when defeat is obvious.

you're losing me here man. obviously germany lost ww2 due to their lack of numbers. how would this be the case in the US?

[Billy]

Where in my post do I compare the technology of then to the technology of today? I was making a comparison to similar situations, lots and lots of technology and not enough man power.

But it's a bad comparison because Germany's technology was not that much more advanced. Yes, they had guns that wouldn't jam, ships that could reach speeds no one else could do. The japanese had a fighter plane that was unmatched in agility (the spitfire). But they were not great enough differences. It's not like Germany had these ships and the rest of the world was still using the musket. Unlike now. Most of these countries use outdated soviet technology, whereas we continued to advance. Today, we can destroy nations from afar by bombing their infrastructure and military bases by firing missiles that travel 70+ miles. We know everything they do, their every move from eyes in space.

Iraq had 900,000 troops. We had 100,000. We won with fewer than a thousand casulties. Hmmm.

edit: And let's not forget what really ended world war 2: the nuclear bomb. A lot of countries were trying to develop this, and the country who got it first ended up winning.

[Hartmann]

you're losing me here man. obviously germany lost ww2 due to their lack of numbers. how would this be the case in the US?

U.S. Troops stationed in other countries that could not be recalled to the states to defend the country, not enough troop replacements, no draft, etc.

Cupcake's original point that Americans are not of the same caliber as the ones of WWII is what I am trying to make clear with the comparison.

[impala454]

U.S. Troops stationed in other countries that could not be recalled to the states to defend the country, not enough troop replacements, no draft, etc.

Cupcake's original point that Americans are not of the same caliber as the ones of WWII is what I am trying to make clear with the comparison.

ok that's great and all, but i think you've missed my subtle point of been trying to make.

1. who has the numbers & weaponry to invade our mainland
2. are they going to swim here?

edit: and if some conventional attack were to head towards the american mainland, do you really think we wouldn't recall every person necessary to defend ourselves?

[Hartmann]

But it's a bad comparison because Germany's technology was not that much more advanced. Yes, they had guns that wouldn't jam, ships that could reach speeds no one else could do. The japanese had a fighter plane that was unmatched in agility (the spitfire). But they were not great enough differences. It's not like Germany had these ships and the rest of the world was still using the musket. Unlike now. Most of these countries use outdated soviet technology, whereas we continued to advance. Today, we can destroy nations from afar by bombing their infrastructure and military bases by firing missiles that travel 70+ miles. We know everything they do, their every move from eyes in space.

Iraq had 900,000 troops. We had 100,000. We won with fewer than a thousand casulties. Hmmm.

edit: And let's not forget what really ended world war 2: the nuclear bomb. A lot of countries were trying to develop this, and the country who got it first ended up winning.

You aren't serious are you? Not that much more advanced? Germany had ballistic missile capability before the U.S. knew the word.

The Spitfire was British, you are referring to the Japanese Mitsubishi A6M Zero. But I am not talking about the Japanese (they were still using bamboo for stuff).

I was talking about the Germans who invented the Fischer-Tropsch process to create synthetic fuel, jet power with swept wing aerodynamics and those cases the rest of the world was using "muskets". The British had a jet but it was slow as all get out and the Americans barely got their jet in the air by the time the war was over. Had Hitler been focused and not a psychopath he could have easily taken Britain by full assault.

The Germans bombed the hell out of the British, so that doesn't necessarily win anything, oh and they fired missiles that flew 70+ miles to land on residential areas.

Look at the Polish at the beginning of the war, or even the Russians (or the British), they were using outdated planes, tanks, and tactics. The Poles failed to hold their country but that was because they were completely overwhelmed. The Russians quickly mobilized their resources and moved production facilities east of the Urals and replaced their fabric covered aircraft with modernized ones.


Your point about Iraq is taken, but that goes back to a post I made earlier about the bombing campaign...

Oh, and yeah, we may have won the nuclear race, but look at who was on the team (Oppenheimer, Einstein, etc.). I wonder what would have happened had they stayed in Germany? Also, evidence was found after the war that the Germans were a few months away from a functional nuclear weapon.

Oh, and you know that really cool plane that's a giant wing (the B-2), yeah, the Germans had that 60 years ago:

[impala454]

You aren't serious are you? Not that much more advanced? Germany had ballistic missile capability before the U.S. knew the word.

uh, no. you're comparing what they had to ballistic missiles?

I was talking about the Germans who invented the Fischer-Tropsch process to create synthetic fuel, jet power with swept wing aerodynamics and those cases the rest of the world was using "muskets". The British had a jet but it was slow as all get out and the Americans barely got their jet in the air by the time the war was over. Had Hitler been focused and not a psychopath he could have easily taken Britain by full assault.

I suppose you're referring to the Meserschmitt Me 262, the first jet fighter, developed by germany. the illustrious difference this thing made was that it killed 150 allied aircraft in exchange for losing 100 me 262s. wow what a huge difference that made in the war... the american P51 mustang made a hell of a lot more difference, shooting down 5,000 enemy aircraft & destroying 4,100 more on the ground, in exchange for 840 P51s lost.

The Germans bombed the hell out of the British, so that doesn't necessarily win anything, oh and they fired missiles that flew 70+ miles to land on residential areas.

the blasted large bombs with jets on them in the general direction of london and just happened to hit it enough to set it on fire... i wouldn't exactly call that some dramatic technology, and it sure as hell wont help you defend yourself.

Oh, and yeah, we may have won the nuclear race, but look at who was on the team (Oppenheimer, Einstein, etc.). I wonder what would have happened had they stayed in Germany?

they'd have been cremated alive in a concentration camp

Also, evidence was found after the war that the Germans were a few months away from a functional nuclear weapon.

2nd place doesn't really count in that race then does it but if they'd had it, i guess superior technology would have made the difference now wouldn't it.

Oh, and you know that really cool plane that's a giant wing (the B-2), yeah, the Germans had that 60 years ago:

what the germans had was a design that didn't f'n work. the thing never flew a single mission. they proved impossible to control until we built the thing with computer avionics. the closest thing that actually flew before the B2 was the northrop american developed flying wing. but they scrapped it because the thing had a tendency to flip.

see, i think you're going too much off of germany's designs and plans, rather than their execution. designs are great and germany was definitely cutting edge, but blueprints don't kill. shoot that's probably one of the things that attracts scientists from all over the world to the US. we can afford to build new technologies that anyone dreams up.

[Hartmann]

I don't really feel like going through and requoting each thing, but I'll address the points.

The Me262 failed at shooting down large numbers of planes because of the way the Luftwaffe was run and because of Hitler. In the Luftwaffe, pilots flew until they were killed, wounded terribly, or promoted to General (in Adolf Galland's case he still flew after being promoted). So the pilots that needed to fly the 262 but they were dead or incapacitated. Also, Hitler insisted that the plane be made into a bomber, adding weight and taking away from the defense of the nation. The P-51 was a great aircraft, but I would chalk a lot of the kills up to the skill of pilots and the lack of skill on the German's part.

The tactic of P-51s (and P-47s) was to attack small groups of targets as a swarm, which definitely helped their shootdown numbers. But no argument, the P-51 was an awesome plane and having the opportunity to fly in a two seat version I've seen the power of the plane up close and personal, it's so easy on the controls. Personally, I'd love to find and restore one of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FW-190 I consider it the F-15 of WWII in the Luftwaffe.

You are referring to the V-1, which used a pulse jet. I am talking about the V-2 which was actually a fairly accurate weapon and the first ballistic missile. It was designed by Werner von Braun, the same guy who put the U.S. on the moon.

Oppenheimer wasn't Jewish and though born in the states was actually encouraged to finish his schooling in Germany.

I pointed out the Ho229 to make the point that the Germans were very technologically advanced. It may not have flown any missions, but it did fly and it used the world's first ejection seat. The Me163 was a rocket plane that was a predecessor to the modern day Suface-to-Air missile.