The problems with the military tribunal thing... Options

[Hartmann]

Alright, my issue with the Supreme Court saying that we have to follow the Geneva Convention is that the Convention documents have not really been updated to deal with modern warfare. It mentions torture, but doesn't say what torture is. Is solitary confinement torture? I wouldn't think so, but some do.

There was an article about a Canadian teen who was captured in Afghanistan after killing an Army Medic (as in, they saw him do it). The teen was told threats of being sent to a foreign country for torture, sleep deprived, and put in solitary confinement. To me, none of those sound that bad. Granted they did make him wipe up his own urine which wasn't right, but the other stuff sounds like simple interrogation practices.

I just don't see where we draw the line. Pretty soon we're going to be giving these guys cable tv with link ups to Al-Jazeera and computers.

[pebkac]

Alright, my issue with the Supreme Court saying that we have to follow the Geneva Convention is that the Convention documents have not really been updated to deal with modern warfare. It mentions torture, but doesn't say what torture is. Is solitary confinement torture? I wouldn't think so, but some do.

There was an article about a Canadian teen who was captured in Afghanistan after killing an Army Medic (as in, they saw him do it). The teen was told threats of being sent to a foreign country for torture, sleep deprived, and put in solitary confinement. To me, none of those sound that bad. Granted they did make him wipe up his own urine which wasn't right, but the other stuff sounds like simple interrogation practices.

I just don't see where we draw the line. Pretty soon we're going to be giving these guys cable tv with link ups to Al-Jazeera and computers.

I would say that anything we wouldn't do to our own prisoners is torture. Would we put them in solitary confinement? Yes. Would we deprive them of sleep? No. Would we threaten to send them to another country to be tortured? No.

Remember, just because they're not being physically abused doesn't mean it's not torture. Besides that, what are we trying to learn from these guys? They've been in Gitmo for years. Any info they do have is going to be so old it's not going to be useful anymore.

[Hartmann]

Sleep deprivation is part of solitary confinement. They may do it on their own but usually putting someone in solitary is considered worse than sleep deprivation.

We may not threaten our guys with the thought of torture but we've been known to threaten criminals with going after their families, coworkers, etc.

Who knows what we are trying to learn. It's amazing how much information people can withhold until they just break. This isn't a terrorist catch-and-release program that we're trying to run. I think that a lot of the people need to be charged or sent back to their countries to face penalties there but we can't just let them go. Neither of us is in the intelligence industry so we have no idea how useful information is that is gained now.

[Guest_CANNONBALL_*]

I would say that anything we wouldn't do to our own prisoners is torture. Would we put them in solitary confinement? Yes. Would we deprive them of sleep? No. Would we threaten to send them to another country to be tortured? No.

Remember, just because they're not being physically abused doesn't mean it's not torture. Besides that, what are we trying to learn from these guys? They've been in Gitmo for years. Any info they do have is going to be so old it's not going to be useful anymore.

so you like...really....kinda know jack shit about the way this shit works huh?

fuck dude, our own troops endure sleep dep, starvation, mental anguish, etc...

not just in the military brigs either.

go to ranger school, sere, bud/s, sfas/sfqc, soi, or hell any infantry unit operating in a red zone and see how much fuckin sleep and chow you get.

your argument, not to your own fault, is typical bleeding-heart talking out your ass bullshit. it's what you've been fed by the media and this pussified pc society we have.

the fact these guys aren't uniformed or committed to a country we can deal with (like germany) is reason alone the geneva convention should not even apply. much less the bill of rights (last I checked they weren't american citizens).

so what do you suggest? letting them go? so they can just try even harder to kill us. that sounds splendid.

you might bring up "the moral high ground"...well partner, even if we sleep dep and feed them one crappy meal a day, we are still taking the moral high ground over their penchant for head lopping...

[FORSAKENR320]

so you like...really....kinda know jack shit about the way this shit works huh?

fuck dude, our own troops endure sleep dep, starvation, mental anguish, etc...

not just in the military brigs either.

go to ranger school, sere, bud/s, sfas/sfqc, soi, or hell any infantry unit operating in a red zone and see how much fuckin sleep and chow you get.

your argument, not to your own fault, is typical bleeding-heart talking out your ass bullshit. it's what you've been fed by the media and this pussified pc society we have.

the fact these guys aren't uniformed or committed to a country we can deal with (like germany) is reason alone the geneva convention should not even apply. much less the bill of rights (last I checked they weren't american citizens).

so what do you suggest? letting them go? so they can just try even harder to kill us. that sounds splendid.

you might bring up "the moral high ground"...well partner, even if we sleep dep and feed them one crappy meal a day, we are still taking the moral high ground over their penchant for head lopping...

cannonball for the win

[pebkac]

Sleep deprivation is part of solitary confinement. They may do it on their own but usually putting someone in solitary is considered worse than sleep deprivation.

We may not threaten our guys with the thought of torture but we've been known to threaten criminals with going after their families, coworkers, etc.

Who knows what we are trying to learn. It's amazing how much information people can withhold until they just break. This isn't a terrorist catch-and-release program that we're trying to run. I think that a lot of the people need to be charged or sent back to their countries to face penalties there but we can't just let them go. Neither of us is in the intelligence industry so we have no idea how useful information is that is gained now.

Whether sleep deprivation is worse than solitary confinement is a matter of opinion that I won't get into. And we threaten criminals with legal action against their friends and family. There's a difference between doing that and threatening to send someone to another country where they will be physically tortured.

Secondly, it's easy to cop out of the argument by saying that we don't know what they're trying to get out of them. However, I really don't see any need to continue torturing people to get info that's 5 years old.

[Hartmann]

Secondly, it's easy to cop out of the argument by saying that we don't know what they're trying to get out of them.  However, I really don't see any need to continue torturing people to get info that's 5 years old.

Again, what's torture and who defines it? And who knows what info we have gotten that has helped in recent terrorist plot nabbings? We threatened to send them, we didn't actually do it. Didn't your mom threaten to ground you if you didn't do something?

Like Cannoball said, they aren't U.S. citizens and they fight under no flag.

[pebkac]

so you like...really....kinda know jack shit about the way this shit works huh?

fuck dude, our own troops endure sleep dep, starvation, mental anguish, etc...

not just in the military brigs either.

go to ranger school, sere, bud/s, sfas/sfqc, soi, or hell any infantry unit operating in a red zone and see how much fuckin sleep and chow you get.

your argument, not to your own fault, is typical bleeding-heart talking out your ass bullshit. it's what you've been fed by the media and this pussified pc society we have.

the fact these guys aren't uniformed or committed to a country we can deal with (like germany) is reason alone the geneva convention should not even apply. much less the bill of rights (last I checked they weren't american citizens).

so what do you suggest? letting them go? so they can just try even harder to kill us. that sounds splendid.

you might bring up "the moral high ground"...well partner, even if we sleep dep and feed them one crappy meal a day, we are still taking the moral high ground over their penchant for head lopping...

Military training is meant to train our troops. It's one thing to submit them to that as a training exercise, but it's a whole different thing entirely to submit someone to that in order to extract info out of them.

Secondly, I never suggested that we just let them go free. But on the other hand, we can't just keep them in a legal blackhole. They have to be subjected to some sort of trial to determine first of all whether they're terrorists at all.

Lastly, not only is it morally right of us to not torture them, it's logically consistent. How can we criticize Middle Eastern countries for human rights violations and then submit them to violations of the very rights we claim to uphold?

[pebkac]

Again, what's torture and who defines it? And who knows what info we have gotten that has helped in recent terrorist plot nabbings? We threatened to send them, we didn't actually do it. Didn't your mom threaten to ground you if you didn't do something?

Like Cannoball said, they aren't U.S. citizens and they fight under no flag.

What is cruel and unusual punishment? What is neccessary and proper? What is freedom of speech?

The law deals with all kinds of ambiguities. If we were to do away with every law that's ambiguous, our country would be sheer anarchy.

And who cares what flag they fight under? They're still human beings that deserve basic rights.

However you look at it, the thread asked for an opinion and I gave it. Agree or disagree with me all you like.

[Testm0nkey]

too much time in solitary and the person wont be of any use to anyone. mental illness++
over an extended period of time = torture

[Hartmann]

What is cruel and unusual punishment? What is neccessary and proper? What is freedom of speech?

The law deals with all kinds of ambiguities. If we were to do away with every law that's ambiguous, our country would be sheer anarchy.

And who cares what flag they fight under? They're still human beings that deserve basic rights.

However you look at it, the thread asked for an opinion and I gave it. Agree or disagree with me all you like.

Basic human rights? Isn't our definition different than say Saudi Arabia? So could we go by their definition and chop hands off?

The flag they fly under makes a world of difference, it means you are covered by the Geneva Convention. They fly no flag, which means they should not be held under the convention.

[chook]

Each culture has their own morals and limits. I belive ours a a pussy ass melting pot. It is known that torture leads to confessions, and it is said that any confession can be tortured out of them. In the movie "Road to Getmo", the innocent guys never confessed even though they were "tortures" which either means that this is not always true, or they were never tortured, at which the definition is not yet settled.

[Guest_CANNONBALL_*]

Secondly, I never suggested that we just let them go free. But on the other hand, we can't just keep them in a legal blackhole. They have to be subjected to some sort of trial to determine first of all whether they're terrorists at all.

the majority of the guys in cuba were picked up in afganistan at the taliban and al queda camps we raided right after 9/11.

by proxy they are terrorists. no grey area there.

so now what do you suggest we do with them? make em spend a few years in a federal penetentiary then once they serve their sentence be set free?

once they are free....what do you think they are going to do? just be all "whoa whoa it's all cool man...I'm going to work at the steak and shake!"

hardly...they'll go back to being a terrorist; albeit with more fervor than they ever previously possessed.

they're like rabid dogs. what do you do with a rabid dog?

[Guest_CANNONBALL_*]

too much time in solitary and the person wont be of any use to anyone. mental illness++
over an extended period of time = torture

true

but they aren't held for intel anymore; I think that ship sailed a few years ago.

they are being held because no one knows wtf to do with them.

we aren't so stupid to just let them go. talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[nickluto]

they are being held because no one knows wtf to do with them.

Right. I think the new era of unconventional warfare has rendered the Geneva Convention a little bit irrelevent as far as prisoners go.

Traditionally, they were held in camps until armistice or a negotiation has been reached between the two countries...but with no countries to come claim these people and no clear cut "end" of the war, what then?