E85 Ethanol, anyone used it yet? Options

[Hartmann]

from what i have seen its mostly a trade off from CO2 to NOx. The change was an energy change not an environmental change, the environmental change would come from the production of the fuel not its use.

From some of what I've read the NOx would be produced from creation of the fuel and the burning of it. NOx is what causes the visible smog we have in most cities, not CO2. So yes, it's a tradeoff, I think the question is how good of one.

I guess the real issue is that it moves away from burning pure gasoline and kind of helps lower our dependence.

[impala454]

yeah I could care less about the environment, but if the stuff is like $1 cheaper at the pump that'd be cool. I thought I'd read somewhere that the stuff is pretty high octane. Just nowhere to get it around here.

[impala454]

nope

here's the fuel economy guide released by the EPA for 2006, if you scroll down to Flexible-Fuel vehicles, I think they all get worse gas mileage (some more than others)

yeah and take a look at their "estimated gasoline cost" of $2.20 per gallon.

Annual fuel cost is estimated assuming 15,000 miles of travel
each year (55% city and 45% highway) and a gasoline fuel cost
of $2.20 per gallon (regular unleaded).

[JStrider]

when I was in colorado at spring break I was using the 10% blend... seemed like I had a lot less power... but I cant tell you if it was due to the fuel or the altitude... or both...

[Hartmann]

yeah I could care less about the environment, but if the stuff is like $1 cheaper at the pump that'd be cool. I thought I'd read somewhere that the stuff is pretty high octane. Just nowhere to get it around here.

If they figure out a way to produce it cheaper... Right now it cost a good deal more to take in corn mash and soy and produce usable ethanol.

[impala454]

i haven't seen prices but i thought E85 was cheaper than gas?

[Hartmann]

i haven't seen prices but i thought E85 was cheaper than gas?

Ethanol and biodiesel blended fuel costs about 3 1/2 times as much to produce as regular gasoline and only contains 60% of the energy of gasoline. So, you are paying about the same at the pump but not receiving the same amount of power.

Other things to keep in mind.

1. Ethanol absorbs water, gasoline does not. It has to be shipped in separate containers and blended on site. This = more $$$.
2. Ethanol evaporates faster than gasoline. This means you could have more vapor emissions when refueling and when your sitting in a hot parking lot.

[dauss]

I totally would like to think that GM's intentions are to ween us off foreign oil, but the timing of this "Live Green Go Yellow" is just odd. GM and Ford started making them flex-fuel because there are massive excess mileage credits to be had. So when GM first started making the Suburbun, even though the actual gas mileage 15mph, on paper with the credits it increased it to 29mpg. Why did they do this, because there would be millions of dollars in fines enacted if they didn't meet Corporate Average Fuel Economy(CAFE) regulations.

With Ford and GM recently posting over a billion dollars in losses they needed something to improve their image and increase car sales when they are losing out to MPG leaders like Toyota. They just neglected to mention on those Live Green Go Yellow commercials on TV is that gas mileage is reduced.

i think all gas is 90/10 now that they phased out mtbe

Actually, in most large cities it should all be 90% gas/10% ethanol and oxygenated to reduce CO emissions for the summer. I think they will switch it back to 100% gas for the winter. I noticed in Lubbock the octane dropped, but didn't notice any stations put up any "Contains Ethanol" stickers at the pump like I saw in Dallas.

i haven't seen prices but i thought E85 was cheaper than gas?

I haven't seen prices either but online there is a list of gas stations online. I had called up a couple(on the same day) a few weeks ago just wondering how much it is, and one station was selling it for $1.99 and another for $2.69(this was back when regular was $2.79). Without any sort of real regulation, I guess the price fluctuates on supply and demand. But if you think about it, if there is only one station that sells it for $1.99, and its 20 miles away, and your gas mileage could drop 25%-40%, is it still worth it?

[impala454]

well i'm not sure about pricing or that my mileage would drop 25-40%. hell i haven't even had the truck long enough to know the gasoline mpg yet. i just want the option to use the stuff to test it out... guess i gotta write my congressman or somethin to get it in lubbock

[Dogmeat]

This whole fucking thing is a political stunt ... like I said I am all for doing what we can to support american farmers, but the bottom line is if they were that fucking concerned about the environment they would have mandated the use of natural gas vehicles and said to hell with the use of "E85" .... natural gas is far and away the cleanest possible fossil fuel we could be using right now ...

But we all know it's evil because you have to drill for it .....and deer just hate those damned drilling rigs

[impala454]

well i think the support for ethanol is because it comes from a renewable resource (ie corn)

[Spectatrix]

At least ethanol is more feasible than hydrogen.

[Hartmann]

I don't know how many times I have to say it...

Coal to Liquids is what this country should be investing in. China's realized its potential and the fact that it creates no pollution when burned, and even the pollution created during it's refinement can be used to pump oil out of wells. Clean, cheap, and a whole lot available...

[impala454]

heh well maybe i don't read the boards as much as i used to, but i don't remember you ever saying that

what exactly is coal to liquids anyhow?

[Hartmann]

heh well maybe i don't read the boards as much as i used to, but i don't remember you ever saying that

what exactly is coal to liquids anyhow?

It uses the Fischer-Topsch process to create fuel. The Germans were dependent on their oil reserves in the Ukraine and as they started to lose the war they quickly found that this was the best way to use their massive amounts of coal.

Pennsylvania is embarking on a journey to take their waste coal and use this process to get very clean diesel. It's a very viable option. Right now the biggest obstacle is environmentalists who worry we'll strip mine the coal.