 Catholicism |
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| Catholicism |
 Jun 1 2006, 08:27 AM
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#91
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Group: Admin Posts: 6,906 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9  |
QUOTE (Testm0nkey @ Jun 1 2006, 06:29 AM) wouldnt praying to someone who is dead for help be a form of idol worship? it is implying they would have the power to intervene.................................. thats what jon said. i agree! The idea is that you can talk to the saints (one-way conversation) just as easily as you could talk another living Christian. By asking them to intercede, you're just asking them to pray TO GOD for xyz while you ALSO are praying TO GOD for xyz, just as you might get a group together on Earth to pray for rain during a drought or to pray for someone's recovery in the hospital, or whatever. It's believed that at a minimum the saints can pray just as they or anyone else could do so while on Earth. And who's to say that, being in Heaven, they can't just mosey on up to God and talk to him "face-to-face"? -------------------- |
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Jun 1 2006, 09:12 AM
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#92
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CHEE CHEE Group: Members Posts: 5,026 Joined: 23-February 06 From: trapped in the hoezone layer Member No.: 39 |
my mom sounds like a horrible catholic
-------------------- Little monkeys making money
Naked monkey looking funny Mighty males are strong and free Female monkey, not so lucky Rocking monkeys, funky monkeys Monkeys sticking other monkeys Monkeys wrong or monkeys right Mostly flexing monkey might |
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Jun 1 2006, 09:50 AM
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#93
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 Group: Moderators Posts: 2,558 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Seoul, South Korea Member No.: 28 |
QUOTE (Spectatrix @ Jun 1 2006, 08:27 AM) The idea is that you can talk to the saints (one-way conversation) just as easily as you could talk another living Christian. By asking them to intercede, you're just asking them to pray TO GOD for xyz while you ALSO are praying TO GOD for xyz, just as you might get a group together on Earth to pray for rain during a drought or to pray for someone's recovery in the hospital, or whatever. It's believed that at a minimum the saints can pray just as they or anyone else could do so while on Earth. And who's to say that, being in Heaven, they can't just mosey on up to God and talk to him "face-to-face"? that would be unfair. so you go through the saints and God will listen to you more than others? hmmm. and..are you sure you aren't just defending the argument, just to be on the other side? because i really don't see how you of all people would agree with this. anhow, whenever you are praying to the saints or mary, i seriously doubt you pray to them just like any other person (as in informally "hey mary, just wondering..could you please pray for blah blah"). i was under the impression that you have to hold beads in your hand and repeat all this ritualistic stuff in order for it to work (superstition+++). am i right or wrong? --------------------  |
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Jun 1 2006, 11:09 AM
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#94
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 Group: Members Posts: 142 Joined: 25-February 06 From: Saint Louis, MO Member No.: 81 |
QUOTE (jonathan83 @ Jun 1 2006, 09:50 AM) that would be unfair. so you go through the saints and God will listen to you more than others? hmmm. and..are you sure you aren't just defending the argument, just to be on the other side? because i really don't see how you of all people would agree with this. anhow, whenever you are praying to the saints or mary, i seriously doubt you pray to them just like any other person (as in informally "hey mary, just wondering..could you please pray for blah blah"). i was under the impression that you have to hold beads in your hand and repeat all this ritualistic stuff in order for it to work (superstition+++). am i right or wrong? There's no requirement to hold beads or pray in any specific way. Hell, there's a prayer to St. Anthony (Patron saint of lost objects), that's so simple it's childish (probably the intent, really): "Tony, Tony, turn around. Something's lost and can't be found..." There are specific prayers that you can pray, but you aren't required to. I'd like to point out the wording of the Hail Mary. "Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death. Amen." We're not worshipping her. We are asking her to pray for us. What's wrong with her defending the argument? Even if she doesn't believe it, it doesn't mean that she doesn't understand the theological reasoning behind it. |
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Jun 1 2006, 11:20 AM
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#95
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Group: Admin Posts: 6,906 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9 |
QUOTE (jonathan83 @ Jun 1 2006, 09:50 AM) and..are you sure you aren't just defending the argument, just to be on the other side? because i really don't see how you of all people would agree with this. Playing Devil's Advocate? Nah... not this time around. I agree that it might not be the most theologically sound practice in history, but I don't think it amounts to idolatry like many Protestants think (and no, I know you're not claiming that). -------------------- |
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Jun 1 2006, 11:21 AM
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#96
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Group: Members Posts: 142 Joined: 25-February 06 From: Saint Louis, MO Member No.: 81 |
I think more experienced apologists can explain the prayer thing better than I can:
QUOTE One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them! In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding. |
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Jun 1 2006, 11:23 AM
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#97
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 GORILLA FLUFFER  Group: Agents Posts: 7,711 Joined: 23-February 06 From: lubbock Member No.: 50 |
 
--------------------  QUOTE (Jessica @ May 7 2007, 01:15 PM)  but yeehaw dammit. YEEHAW QUOTE (Dogmeat @ Jun 26 2008, 07:51 PM) ok once upon a time I jacked myself off retarded. Licking anuses, one kindergarten class at a time!! |
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Jun 1 2006, 01:03 PM
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#98
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GORILLA FLUFFER Group: Agents Posts: 7,711 Joined: 23-February 06 From: lubbock Member No.: 50 |
-------------------- QUOTE (Jessica @ May 7 2007, 01:15 PM) but yeehaw dammit. YEEHAW QUOTE (Dogmeat @ Jun 26 2008, 07:51 PM) ok once upon a time I jacked myself off retarded. Licking anuses, one kindergarten class at a time!! |
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Jun 1 2006, 01:18 PM
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#99
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Group: Admin Posts: 6,906 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9 |
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Jun 1 2006, 01:49 PM
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#100
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Group: Members Posts: 142 Joined: 25-February 06 From: Saint Louis, MO Member No.: 81 |
QUOTE (Spectatrix @ Jun 1 2006, 11:20 AM) Playing Devil's Advocate? Nah... not this time around. I agree that it might not be the most theologically sound practice in history, but I don't think it amounts to idolatry like many Protestants think (and no, I know you're not claiming that). A huge difference between Protestants and Catholics and Protestants is the concept of Sacred Tradition (with a capital T). Protestants rely on "Sola Scriptura", or scripture alone, whereas we take scripture and also take into consideration the 2000 years of Tradition established when Jesus made Peter the first Pope. |
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Jun 1 2006, 01:52 PM
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#101
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Group: Admin Posts: 6,906 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9 |
Yeah, I know. I'm aware of the difference between Sola Scriptura and scripture + tradition. (I was devout Catholic until I was 15/16).
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Jun 1 2006, 02:56 PM
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#102
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 Group: Agents Posts: 4,026 Joined: 23-February 06 From: lu-bok Member No.: 41 |
just ask a 7th day adventist about catholics.
thats a damn rant. -------------------- 32-bit whore
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Jun 1 2006, 03:08 PM
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#103
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Group: Admin Posts: 6,906 Joined: 22-February 06 From: Austin Member No.: 9 |
QUOTE (Divergent Reality @ Jun 1 2006, 02:56 PM) just ask a 7th day adventist about catholics. thats a damn rant. Ooh ooh, do tell! -------------------- |
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Jun 1 2006, 03:25 PM
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#104
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Group: Agents Posts: 4,026 Joined: 23-February 06 From: lu-bok Member No.: 41 |
well, my uncle went 7th day adventist.
seems the catholic church is the church of the devil. all the false idols and changing the 10 commandments and the like. i havnt asked for a more complete description. dont see him much. -------------------- 32-bit whore
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Jun 1 2006, 05:16 PM
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#105
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Group: Members Posts: 142 Joined: 25-February 06 From: Saint Louis, MO Member No.: 81 |
QUOTE (Spectatrix @ Jun 1 2006, 01:52 PM) Yeah, I know. I'm aware of the difference between Sola Scriptura and scripture + tradition. (I was devout Catholic until I was 15/16). Yeah. Don't know why I hit quote instead of reply on my message. Whoops. Oh, and you want to talk about someone hating the Catholic Church? http://www.chick.com |
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