Catholicism Options

[Spectatrix]

One of my Xanga acquaintances discussed this back in February, so I thought it might be pertinent to repeat his post here:

Is the ancient Christian practice of offering prayers (or prayer requests) to departed saints idolatrous?
St. Augustine of Hippo, in North Africa:

At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps.

Answering Objections From the Comment Box:
(1)  Hm..using saints as messengers/intercessors between you and God. Didn't Jesus reserve that right solely for Himself?

Donald Fairbairn, a Protestant, gives a good example of the common reply to this:

"......... the saints are not mediators between people and God.  Instead, they are intercessors who pray for believers on earth.  As early as the end of the fourth century, Eastern theologians such as the three Cappadocians and John Chrysostom argued that departed saints continued to pray for people just as believers on earth prayed for each other.  Consequently, when Christians invoke the aid of departed saints, this act is no different from asking other living believers to pray for them."

2.Why would a dead dude be able to hear you, especially if you picked a popular one who's being prayed to elsewhere simultaneously? Omnipresence isn't ours to claim.

You're a Christian, so I'll give you a one word answer: God.  I'm suprised you would ask this as you, being reasonable, must assume there is some theological reasoning behind this.

2. Don't people in heaven have better things to do than have people on earth bothering them for favors all the time? Is that gonna happen to us when we die?

Yeah, why would departed saints give a flip about the condition of the Church on earth?

3. Depending on the saint you chose, he might be in the wrong place to convey your concerns to God.

Where is the saint again?

4. Is the saint supposed to have extra holiness bonus points or something? Or are they just better at prayer than you?

Yes, No, Both and Neither.  The saints are holy by virtue of their actually being in the presence and in fuller communion with the Lord, from that we could possibly infer that they would be better at praying than we are. Another independent rationale for petitioning their prayers would be the same reasons we ask fellow believers to pray for us.

5. God (Jesus included) is the only one that we have scriptural justification to pray to.  The Catholic Church has witnessed against itself in that it turns away from Jesus as the only intercessor, advocate, and mediator, and turns to Mary and the "saints" for divine blessing.  The witness confirms their seperation from the Head of the Church.  They now try to find a gate other than Jesus.

I will deal with the italicized part later.  I think the difficulty disappears when you understand this as no different from asking other living believers to pray for us.  Perhaps you could argue that this operates under erroneous assumptions, but you will agree that it is not idolatrous.

6.  I figure if Jesus said we should pray exclusively to God, having never mentioned praying to anyone, and God stressed praying to Him and not other gods or entities to the Jews, that it's probably best to just pray to God unless He tells you to do otherwise.  What can a saint do other than what God does through him? Nothing.

Define "prayer" here.  If we defined it as "speak" or "request" (which I am asking others to do for me), the above would obviously appear absurd.  What I have italicized above is very essential to understanding the theology of the practice.

The main point is that if the body and even conscienceness is destroyed, while the soul sleeps, then how can you pray to anyone beyond the grave?

By not holding to conditional immortality as the Church has for 2000 years?

Why would you pray to Mary, or St. (fill in the blank) when you have Christ, your savior, and intersessor as Hebrews says?  Why would you use another human to talk to God?  It almost feels like a slap in the face to Christ, if you say you would rather pray to a human than Christ himself. Am I totally off base here?

Yes, you are completely off base.  I've said this again and again: STUDY CHURCH HISTORY!  We are asking the saints for their prayers.  Why do you ask your friends to pray when you can yourself?  Why do you think the majority of the bishops and laity of the Christian Church for the last two thousand years have engaged in an idolatrous practice, did Jesus fail promise to guide them into the truth?  Listen to Jerome, whose words reflect the pratice of the entire Church in his day:

You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard...But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (ST. JEROME Against Vigilantius 6 AD 406)

http://www.xanga.com/mr_jargon/440978625/item.html

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: May 31 2006, 06:22 PM

[Billy]

This thread is soaked in futility.

[Jim]

I just don't get why praying to someone who is dead (they're in heaven, yah and can watch us and I believe people in heaven do watch us, if I remember my Bible...) is seen as worshipping them. Asking them for help isn't praising/worshipping/making them an idol.

[Erik B.]

I just don't get why praying to someone who is dead (they're in heaven, yah and can watch us and I believe people in heaven do watch us, if I remember my Bible...) is seen as worshipping them. Asking them for help isn't praising/worshipping/making them an idol.

Aside from the accusations of cannibalism, this is probably the biggest issue people take with the Church.

[chook]

i really have no idea what you're trying to get at dude.

Coincidentaly, neither do I!

[Spectatrix]

Aside from the accusations of cannibalism, this is probably the biggest issue people take with the Church.

Well the sacrament of the Eucharist *is* ritual cannibalism... I knew that even when I was Catholic.

[nickluto]

Well the sacrament of the Eucharist *is* ritual cannibalism... I knew that even when I was Catholic.

Figuratively, not literally...unless the Cruton's of Christ are really people.

Even at the first supper, the first communion, they didnt all bite jesus, and suck his blood.


omg, solyent green !

[GhostofTHECHICKE...]

You people are making jesus angry

[Spectatrix]

Figuratively, not literally...unless the Cruton's of Christ are really people.

Even at the first supper, the first communion, they didnt all bite jesus, and suck his blood.


omg, solyent green !

Doctrine of transubstantiation. Catholics believe that the substance of the bread and wine literally transform into the body and blood of Christ, though the appearance of them do not change. The Church also states that Jesus had the nature of both God and man, which would make the body of Christ human flesh. Thus, ritual cannibalism.

[jonathan83]

I just don't get why praying to someone who is dead (they're in heaven, yah and can watch us and I believe people in heaven do watch us, if I remember my Bible...) is seen as worshipping them. Asking them for help isn't praising/worshipping/making them an idol.

ok well first, i dont remember anything about people in heaven being able to watch us. can you show me what you're talking about?

second, i've already said this a few times. if you're asking them for help, you obviously must believe they can help you, right? and if you believe someone has powers to help you, then that's something. i'm not saying you're "worshipping" them, but you are believing that they are powerful and have some very high significance. whereas, the 10 commandments does say "take no other gods before me" and not to pray to anyone else. and yes, i would consider that praying to someone else.

[woody]

define worshipping....

i'm not saying you're "worshipping" them

the 10 commandments does say "take no other gods before me

if your asking them to help you pray...does that mean you're worshipping them?

[jonathan83]

no, i don't think it's worshipping..but it still seems wrong to me. like you're trying to go over God's head and talk to someone else, because you're too afraid or something. and i just dont believe anyone else besides God can hear your prayers. but hey, that's me. that's why i'm not catholic.

[woody]

granted...

but given the argument...you're not going over god. you're asking someone to help you get to god.

[Testm0nkey]

wouldnt praying to someone who is dead for help be a form of idol worship? it is implying they would have the power to intervene..................................



thats what jon said. i agree!

[jonathan83]

you're asking someone to help you get to god.

because you can't get to him yourself?

and yes to what cathryn said as well.