Proof Democrats are Stupid - again. Options

[chook]

The democrats have voted down every attempt to drill Alaska. I think that had a pretty profound effect.

That is true. How much could it yield?

[Dogmeat]

strangely, I did answer. All that was in your post was the amount of money that we pay for illegals, which has nothing to do with democrats or republicans (we both agree on that, we should not be paying for them), and then you compare taxes....which I mention already, what part of your post did I miss exactly?

No, you didn't, because you completley missed the entire point of the post I made and I don't know how to make it any more obvious:

The Democratic party has opposed and moved to hault virtually any new domestic drilling project in this country for nearly the last 40 years on pure bullshit grounds of environmental impact, spotted owls, whatever. ANWR is no difference. So when I say put 2 and 2 together, what I mean is, that this mentality over the course of the last four decades has left us in the pickle we're in today, and the left side of the aisle bears HUGE percentage of the blame for it. They've sold themselves out to the greenie fucks to get votes, and now we're all paying the price for it. Will drilling in ANWR cause gas to go down? No. Will it help to prevent it from going higher? Yes. The bottom line is, we need 15 more ANWR's domesically if we want to satiate our lust for oil and not see the prices shoot even higher, but every time a company wants to drill somehwere, regardless of how "environmentally sensitive" the area is, there 10 whacko greenie groups suiing the BLM to stop development. It's absolutley fucking mindless, and groups like these have done such a good job brainwashing the public about it they public buys into it. The Democrats wouldn't get elected into office without this. "The Environment" is roughly the equivelent of the "War on Terror" for the Republican party.

[impala454]

That is true. How much could it yield?

honestly i have no idea. i do think it's a really dumb move to keep blocking attempts to use what we have though.

[schwab]

No, you didn't, because you completley missed the entire point of the post I made and I don't know how to make it any more obvious:

The Democratic party has opposed and moved to hault virtually any new domestic drilling project in this country for nearly the last 40 years on pure bullshit grounds of environmental impact, spotted owls, whatever. ANWR is no difference. So when I say put 2 and 2 together, what I mean is, that this mentality over the course of the last four decades has left us in the pickle we're in today, and the left side of the aisle bears HUGE percentage of the blame for it. They've sold themselves out to the greenie fucks to get votes, and now we're all paying the price for it. Will drilling in ANWR cause gas to go down? No. Will it help to prevent it from going higher? Yes. The bottom line is, we need 15 more ANWR's domesically if we want to satiate our lust for oil and not see the prices shoot even higher, but every time a company wants to drill somehwere, regardless of how "environmentally sensitive" the area is, there 10 whacko greenie groups suiing the BLM to stop development. It's absolutley fucking mindless, and groups like these have done such a good job brainwashing the public about it they public buys into it. The Democrats wouldn't get elected into office without this. "The Environment" is roughly the equivelent of the "War on Terror" for the Republican party.

I bring up my point again, even if we did drill in ANWR, even if it was 10 years ago, chances are we would still be in the same shithole we are in now. How much more supply would it bring in? The demand for oil would be the same, the dollar would still be shitty, and gas prices all around the world would still be going up. You would be a fool to think that if it started pumping out oil 10 years ago to think that it would solve our skyrocketing oil costs. Demand everywhere is going up, regardless of if we drilled or not. Money would be a lot better spent on finding things were we dont need to rely on oil. Other technologies that oil/car companies have been putting off for years due to the profits that they make on the current technology.

I dont agree with the environmentalist to the extent that they go to stop things, but I also dont trust large oil companies and the greed that they have.

[Dogmeat]

I bring up my point again, even if we did drill in ANWR, even if it was 10 years ago, chances are we would still be in the same shithole we are in now. How much more supply would it bring in? The demand for oil would be the same, the dollar would still be shitty, and gas prices all around the world would still be going up. You would be a fool to think that if it started pumping out oil 10 years ago to think that it would solve our skyrocketing oil costs. Demand everywhere is going up, regardless of if we drilled or not. Money would be a lot better spent on finding things were we dont need to rely on oil. Other technologies that oil/car companies have been putting off for years due to the profits that they make on the current technology.

I dont agree with the environmentalist to the extent that they go to stop things, but I also dont trust large oil companies and the greed that they have.

There is no concrete estimate for how much oil is there. It's not a fixed thing. Technology changes, and enables you to produce more oil. It's a very very large field, and as you've stated, with demand rising, it's complete stupidity to not develop fields we know we can develop. One of the big reasons they've been wanting to develop that field is that even 10, 15 years ago it was economical to do so. The infastructure (read pipelines) already existed, and they knew they could do it. They weren't even talking about utilizing an area larger than %3 of the total acerage of the entire reserve. Demand is high yes, so why don't we fuck ourselves by not increasing the supply wherever we can?

You guys who are looking for a miracle are never going to find one. Gas prices, at least in the next 30 years, are never going to go down. At this point, the best we can do is what we can to keep them from going higher, and developing fields we know we can get oil out of is the only thing that's going to really have an effect on that.

And, explain to me how large oil companies are "Greedy" ...?

I've said this a million times: They are selling a product that EVERYONE in the world needs. That's the reason they're making so much money. You're complaining about corporate greed, it's that way in _EVERY_ industry, not just the oil and gas industry. In fact, I would go so far as to say even less so ... they want stable prices. The whole "record profits" thing rings empty with me for the sole reason ... look at the shitstorm it has caused. Now they're having to deal with 10x more bullshit than they already do .... the oil companies want stable prices, not what we have now ... they're going to make money, and a lot of it no matter what, so what good does it do for them to artifically jack the prices up? None, and that's been proven time and time again.

[schwab]

There is no concrete estimate for how much oil is there. It's not a fixed thing. Technology changes, and enables you to produce more oil. It's a very very large field, and as you've stated, with demand rising, it's complete stupidity to not develop fields we know we can develop. One of the big reasons they've been wanting to develop that field is that even 10, 15 years ago it was economical to do so. The infastructure (read pipelines) already existed, and they knew they could do it. They weren't even talking about utilizing an area larger than %3 of the total acerage of the entire reserve. Demand is high yes, so why don't we fuck ourselves by not increasing the supply wherever we can?

You guys who are looking for a miracle are never going to find one. Gas prices, at least in the next 30 years, are never going to go down. At this point, the best we can do is what we can to keep them from going higher, and developing fields we know we can get oil out of is the only thing that's going to really have an effect on that.

And, explain to me how large oil companies are "Greedy" ...?

I've said this a million times: They are selling a product that EVERYONE in the world needs. That's the reason they're making so much money. You're complaining about corporate greed, it's that way in _EVERY_ industry, not just the oil and gas industry. In fact, I would go so far as to say even less so ... they want stable prices. The whole "record profits" thing rings empty with me for the sole reason ... look at the shitstorm it has caused. Now they're having to deal with 10x more bullshit than they already do .... the oil companies want stable prices, not what we have now ... they're going to make money, and a lot of it no matter what, so what good does it do for them to artifically jack the prices up? None, and that's been proven time and time again.

As I said, I have no issue with the development of ANWR, granted I dont think it will change much. So you think there is no point researching other technologies other than gas powered vehicles? I am not looking for a miracle, I just know we need more fuel efficient ways than we have now. Granted...gas prices havent affected me yet, I just laugh at the people who bought these large trucks and are bitching now that they have to fill them up when they dont even need to drive them. We've been "lucky" for years to have as low of gas prices as we have had, just be glad we dont have european ones where they have been paying over double what we have for too long.

Democrats have been against it, I could care less what the normal democrat is against. I dont think they have screwed us by voting against it, we still do have the oil now, and we will when we do eventually start drilling. The prices would never have stayed as low as they were even if we drilled. They will continue to go up even if we do have ANWR pumping out gas. It wont stop the gas prices raising, because the demand continues to rise. I think within five years, it will have begun the drilling.....I have no problem with this.

Eh, you do have a point on the greedy part, everyone is....but doesnt mean I trust them.

[Dogmeat]

As I said, I have no issue with the development of ANWR, granted I dont think it will change much. So you think there is no point researching other technologies other than gas powered vehicles? I am not looking for a miracle, I just know we need more fuel efficient ways than we have now. Granted...gas prices havent affected me yet, I just laugh at the people who bought these large trucks and are bitching now that they have to fill them up when they dont even need to drive them. We've been "lucky" for years to have as low of gas prices as we have had, just be glad we dont have european ones where they have been paying over double what we have for too long.

Democrats have been against it, I could care less what the normal democrat is against. I dont think they have screwed us by voting against it, we still do have the oil now, and we will when we do eventually start drilling. The prices would never have stayed as low as they were even if we drilled. They will continue to go up even if we do have ANWR pumping out gas. It wont stop the gas prices raising, because the demand continues to rise. I think within five years, it will have begun the drilling.....I have no problem with this.

Eh, you do have a point on the greedy part, everyone is....but doesnt mean I trust them.

No, I absolutley think there is a point in researching alternative fuels, and I've never once said I thought it was pointless, in fact quite the opposite. But, yes, the Democrats have COMPLETLEY screwed us as far as domestic energy policy is concerned, no ifs ands or buts about it. Unless somone from the east coast wants to build a new coal-fired power plant or open up a new coal mine, they do everything humanly possible to get it shut down. Guess we should all turn union huh?

[schwab]

No, I absolutley think there is a point in researching alternative fuels, and I've never once said I thought it was pointless, in fact quite the opposite. But, yes, the Democrats have COMPLETLEY screwed us as far as domestic energy policy is concerned, no ifs ands or buts about it. Unless somone from the east coast wants to build a new coal-fired power plant or open up a new coal mine, they do everything humanly possible to get it shut down. Guess we should all turn union huh?

eh, I dont think dems screwed it up at all, I just dont really think it would have made a difference as far as ANWR.

[Spectatrix]

The Democrats and Republicans are both stupid. Can't we all just get along?

[Dogmeat]

eh, I dont think dems screwed it up at all, I just dont really think it would have made a difference as far as ANWR.

How is 40 years of doing everything they can to derail domestic energy development not screwing it up? That's the mother of all screwups.

[nickluto]

Go Dogmeat, go !

Two things:

I have heard people talking about oil in North Dakota, and the reserve there being larger than what they have in Saudi Arabia(?) Im not so sure about that, but there seems to be a shit load there, way bigger than in the ANWR. Surveyors claim to have somewhere in the range of 3 and 4.3 Billion barrels of recoverable oil making it the largest reservoir discovery in the United States. Can we drill there? Hell fucking no. Not yet because the Dems are blocking drilling.

http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1911

Also.

I love it when "environmentally conscious" democrats complain about soaring gas prices. It's like wanting to have your cake and eat it. Gas prices skyrocketing like they are does more for lowering consumption of gas (and thus, environmental "damage") than everyone in the U.S. driving a hybrid car. People are driving a lot less and consuming a lot less gas, but don't let that get in the way of environmental democrats and bitching about the government !

It's funny cause when you corner them, they have to pick between one or the other and they contradict each other. Do you want less "global warming?" or do you want a lower gas bill? You cant have both you fucking socialist genius. Bet you and your Al Gore loving hippie drum circle cohorts never talked about this over a pipe of hash and a raspy rendition of "Give Peace a Chance."

[impala454]

I was watching something on discovery last night about that the Russians have found an enormous amount of oil in siberia and if they can get at it, it will be the largest source on the planet. Yay, Cold War II here we come!

[nickluto]

Oh yeah. and I tend to agree with Schwab. Drilling into the ANWR 10, 20, 30 years ago wouldn't have made that big of a difference.

Why you ask?

Because the environmental democrats and the U.S. government haven't allowed the construction of a single oil refinery since 1973...

Look here... http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h109-5254

99% of republicans supported this bill to allow more refineries to be built. 92% of democrats OPPOSED it. This bill was proposed two years ago.

The oceans could be filled with nothing but oil, but without more refineries and infrastructure to turn it into petroleum products, it pretty much doesn't fucking matter.

[Hartmann]

The U.S. has seen a production capacity increase equivalent to 12 new refineries over the past 10 years. No, it hasn't been new refineries, instead it has been units added to existing refineries.

[impala454]

everything I've read and seen says it's way cheaper to improve existing refineries than build new ones (i.e. all the red tape you have to go through to build a new one).