Is the west heading for a significant change? Options

[Hartmann]

I was reading this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6190080.stm and started thinking... The west and its culture is becoming enveloped by the Islamic culture.

Anyone who has been to the Netherlands and/or Belgium knows how quickly those states are becoming mini-Islamic Republics, so the question has to be asked, is this long term? How quickly will it happen?

Personally I think France will be the last to fall into this as they have pretty much disallowed all personal freedom that goes against the thinking that the government is right. They've shut down Christian Monasteries because they were teaching that the government suppresses (how ironic).

The big places I think will see a huge Islamic change are southern Spain, western Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, and Britain.

Thoughts?

I didn't have a lot of thought put into the post, I just pondered that question and decided to put it out here.

[Mommy]

Interesting. I didn't know that. Can honestly say I don't like it too much because I'm not a huge fan of Islam, but hey that's what religious freedom is all about. I'm sure they will try to gain government control, though.

[Spectatrix]

I was reading some about the UK/Muslim law issue earlier today on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/08...iref=newssearch

I do not like the idea of any religion starting to insert itself into an otherwise secular law process.

[Hartmann]

I was reading some about the UK/Muslim law issue earlier today on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/08...iref=newssearch

I do not like the idea of any religion starting to insert itself into an otherwise secular law process.

I agree. No religion, including Christianity, should push its way into the law process. The slope is slippery when that happens and we end up with things like the Salem Witch Trials.

[Testm0nkey]

can you cite your sources for the france info because thats not whats happening at all.

theres more and more uproar AGAINST sarkozy (good thing). far from "outlawing" free speech and speaking out against your government. france has never had a problem doing that

A passage in Sarkozy's book expresses his argument: "I am convinced that religious spirit and practice can contribute to appeasing and regulating a free society [...] One would be wrong to limit the church's role to spirituality."

one of the big things the french hate about the president is he is TOO religious and too supportive of religions. france has been historically hugely secular

his last big speil that i know of was this january where he was blowing on and on about how france cant be without religion and how republican morality is based on Christianity.




edit: source from a CHRISTIAN news media

The French Reconnection
Europe's most secular country rediscovers its Christian roots.
by Agnieszka Tennant | posted 2/08/2008 05:47PM

NOTE the time and date of this
from christianity today.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/march/20.28.html

[impala454]

There is a difference in practicing a religion and adopting a culture.

[Testm0nkey]

i am just pointing out that everything hartmann said about france is incorrect. are you saying sarkozy is practicing or adopting islam?

he may be coddling them but i cant really blame him. with the riots that went on last year and threat of terrorism from fanatics he has to walk on eggshells. he is also trying to garner support from an Islamic high up president guy (i think saudia arabia?) for support against terrorism. not that i agree with how sarkozy is handling certain things

[FORSAKENR320]

the french suck and i hope they catch fire.

that is all that really needs to be said about them

[blaarg]

Not going to ever happen.

The end.

The will outlaw/restrict all immigration before this happens.

[Testm0nkey]

of course

[jonathan83]

I was reading this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6190080.stm and started thinking... The west and its culture is becoming enveloped by the Islamic culture.

Anyone who has been to the Netherlands and/or Belgium knows how quickly those states are becoming mini-Islamic Republics, so the question has to be asked, is this long term? How quickly will it happen?

Personally I think France will be the last to fall into this as they have pretty much disallowed all personal freedom that goes against the thinking that the government is right. They've shut down Christian Monasteries because they were teaching that the government suppresses (how ironic).

The big places I think will see a huge Islamic change are southern Spain, western Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, and Britain.

Thoughts?

I didn't have a lot of thought put into the post, I just pondered that question and decided to put it out here.

First of all, look at how much we (America/the west) have changed the rest of the world. Our culture, food, music, clothes, language, etc. has altered every country in the world in some way. So spreading religion is one thing, but spreading culture is normal and is just what happens throughout history.

The big places I think will see a huge Islamic change are southern Spain, western Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, and Britain.

Well... southern Spain used to be controlled by the Islamic Moors and still have a significant amount of Muslims, Muslim culture, and a very historical mosque. So I'd argue that they already saw a "huge Islamic change" long ago and still have it.

[pebkac]

I was reading this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6190080.stm and started thinking... The west and its culture is becoming enveloped by the Islamic culture.

Anyone who has been to the Netherlands and/or Belgium knows how quickly those states are becoming mini-Islamic Republics, so the question has to be asked, is this long term? How quickly will it happen?

Personally I think France will be the last to fall into this as they have pretty much disallowed all personal freedom that goes against the thinking that the government is right. They've shut down Christian Monasteries because they were teaching that the government suppresses (how ironic).

The big places I think will see a huge Islamic change are southern Spain, western Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, and Britain.

Thoughts?

I didn't have a lot of thought put into the post, I just pondered that question and decided to put it out here.

Admittedly, I did just skim through the article, but it doesn't look like there's anything in it to suggest that western countries are heading towards being "enveloped" in Islam. I don't really know that allowing Muslims to settle their disputes according to sharia law is necessarily for the best, but they already have similar systems set up in Jewish areas. So I don't really see why Muslims should be treated any differently.

Although I do have to admit that the suggestion of "legal pluralism" is an interesting concept. I just don't know if it's workable.

[Hartmann]

Let me clarify why I posted the link to the article, it simply had to do with the adoption of the laws in the west, that's all.

Testm0nkey, I don't know how I was completely wrong about France as they do/did suppress free speech and religious practices. ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7234978.stm, http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/200...m_of_spee_2.php, http://www.telospress.com/main/index.php?m...;article_id=159, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_rel...edom_in_France)

From everything I've seen, Sarkozy is the only French head to really push for religious freedom (even if it is Christianity). I guess everyone forgets the riots a few years ago and why they took place.

France does what it can to prevent the will of the people from overtaking the will of the government.

Pebkac, my point is that even the Jewish courts are teetering on an unstable west. The Muslim culture in Britain decidedly outnumbers the Jewish population there. Having been to the Netherlands and Denmark multiple times over the last six years there is an obvious change in cultures.

My whole point was questioning whether we'll see a change in the west. As far as us changing the culture of other countries, I'm not sure we've had a huge of impact on places such as the Middle East, Africa, and Central Asia as a lot of people believe. We've definitely had some impact on other cultures, there is no doubt in my mind, I'm just wondering whether we'll see a shift in the west in our lifetime.

[Hartmann]

An interesting write-up on the Archbishop of Canterbury's take on Sharia Law being "inevitable": http://www.slate.com/id/2184186/?from=rss

[Dogmeat]

god I fucking hate back asswards relegions.