Do you believe you have Free Will?, a philosophical debate Options

[Epic]

Alright everyone, just a philosophical debate/dialog.

The boards are full of the same political banter back and forth, so let's try something different.

Basically, do you believe in free will? do you have it?

Let's try to keep this clean and not personal. Be smart, not petty.




Personally, I vote no. Why?
a. No one ever asked me if I wanted to exist. because of that, my actions are directly a response to a denial of free will, and therefore not my own.

b. Consequentialism. I believe that every event is interrelated. I do think there was a "big bang" type event, but I don't bother myself with what happened before that other than everything that happens is a product of what happened, and therefore predictable and unavoidable. No free will there either.

Paging Jessica to the thread!

[kcroxyoursox]

You're not making sense. When you recieve an input, then give an output, that is the process of you making a choice.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/choose

you recieve the possibilites as input, and your output is a selection. that's what a choice is!

But the computer didn't choose its output. The output was dictated by someone independent of the computer.

[impala454]

But the computer didn't choose its output. The output was dictated by someone independent of the computer.

right, which is why computers don't have free will

[Billy]

right, which is why computers don't have free will

Now put 2 and 2 together...


I've made this argument in the past and I'll make it again, because it's something to do.

There are two things I want to seperate: Having Choices and Making Choices. The first I will talk about in paragraph 1 is Making Choices.

My argument with the computer is that you cannot Make Choices. You do not have the ability to make a choice any more than a computer does, and here's why: You can process information, much like a computer. And then you can make a "decision" on what to do because of that information, much like a computer (in my previous example: output 'A'). But never in that process do you nor the computer Make a Choice (keep reading!). You output based on what you received as an input. Just like a computer. But the differnce between us and a computer is the complexity of the inputs and the fact that we do not know beforehand the output (well, one could argue a computer doesn't know the outputs either until it's time to output), except in very simple situations. Because a computer reacts on situations that are simple, we are able to see that a computer does not have free will. But because our inputs, processes, and decisions are usually not nearly as simple, it is difficult to see that we are much like a computer.

And if a computer does not have free will, then neither do we.

The second is Having Choices. In part of your argument you believe we can Make Choices because we have the ability to process information and make a decision (give an output). I may have to explain why I think this is wrong again, but it's ok, I have all day. The second part of your argument is that we have Free Will because we Have Choices. In the past, I argued why having choices does not mean you have free will. If I gave you a gun in public and told you to shoot me, you would not do it. You have the choice, but because you are intelligent enough to know there are major future consequences to complying, you will never choose to do so.

Having the choice of A, B, and C but only having the ability to choose A does not mean you have free will, if free will is having the ability to choose any A, B, or C.

[impala454]

Now put 2 and 2 together...
I've made this argument in the past and I'll make it again, because it's something to do.

There are two things I want to seperate: Having Choices and Making Choices. The first I will talk about in paragraph 1 is Making Choices.

My argument with the computer is that you cannot Make Choices. You do not have the ability to make a choice any more than a computer does, and here's why: You can process information, much like a computer. And then you can make a "decision" on what to do because of that information, much like a computer (in my previous example: output 'A'). But never in that process do you nor the computer Make a Choice (keep reading!). You output based on what you received as an input. Just like a computer. But the differnce between us and a computer is the complexity of the inputs and the fact that we do not know beforehand the output (well, one could argue a computer doesn't know the outputs either until it's time to output), except in very simple situations. Because a computer reacts on situations that are simple, we are able to see that a computer does not have free will. But because our inputs, processes, and decisions are usually not nearly as simple, it is difficult to see that we are much like a computer.

And if a computer does not have free will, then neither do we.

The second is Having Choices. In part of your argument you believe we can Make Choices because we have the ability to process information and make a decision (give an output). I may have to explain why I think this is wrong again, but it's ok, I have all day. The second part of your argument is that we have Free Will because we Have Choices. In the past, I argued why having choices does not mean you have free will. If I gave you a gun in public and told you to shoot me, you would not do it. You have the choice, but because you are intelligent enough to know there are major future consequences to complying, you will never choose to do so.

Having the choice of A, B, and C but only having the ability to choose A does not mean you have free will, if free will is having the ability to choose any A, B, or C.

obviously, I would choose not to shoot someone in cold blood. but the choice was still presented to me. tell me something, what did you do when you chose the white socks instead of the gray socks at wal mart? did God predetermine you to choose white? was there an algorithm in your head that made you pick white, and if you were presented with the choice 10,000,000 more times, you would always choose white??

[Billy]

obviously, I would choose not to shoot someone in cold blood. but the choice was still presented to me.

I will say it again:

Having the choice of A, B, and C but only having the ability to choose A does not mean you have free will, if free will is having the ability to choose any A, B, or C.

I have concluded, again, that you lack the ability of taking information of a subject from another, understand it, and argue accordingly. I do not mind if you disagree with my beliefs. But I do get annoyed when you make a statement that was invalidated previously.

Like I said in my post: Just because you are given the options of different actions, doesn't give you free will. You would have to able to choose those other options.

if there is no choice but to *not* shoot someone, in cold blood, then it would never happen. yet it does

In the scenario of me giving YOU a gun and having you shoot me to death, you could never *choose* to do so. Given the inputs you have been given thus far in your life, you cannot make that choice. If I gave some psycho a gun and asked them to shoot me, they might be able to. They weren't given the same inputs, and are thus not confined to the same output.

I do have a question for you, given your exceptional poor performance in this argument: do you actually think about what others have already said before you make a statement?


Now, on to trivial things, like choosing one colored shirt over another: uninfluenced by the fact that I am purposely *trying* to have free will (by the act of trying to have free will, I essentially rob myself of it), I will likely pick my favorite looking shirt. Why it is my favorite, I do not know. But I do not pick that at random. I always pick the one I mysteriously like for whatever reason. Also, I always pick different shirts. I never buy two of the same kind. If I lived in a society where everyone always wore the same shirt, I would also buy the same type of the same shirt over and over again.

Like I've said before, just because you make a decision, doesn't mean you've willfully chosen that decision. This issue is simple to you, because you don't understand it's complexity. I know you *think* that by choosing one thing over another, you have actually chosen by free will. But you haven't. If you want to know why, re-read these arguments. But I don't think you will. I am fairly certain you are incapable of changing your opinion. So until you learn how to change your opinion, stop trying to change others'.

Stop being so interested in trying to being right, and be more interested in coming to the right conclusion. It is ok to be wrong. Everyone is wrong every now and again.