Immigration issues (split from VT thread), guns, etc. Options

[cupcake]

my proposed gun law changes borne from this incident (laws mind you...something criminals disregard):

-U.S. citizenship required for purchase (no 'resident alien' malarkey)

-abolish gun-free zones except for federal and govt properties and airplanes/ports. Place law-abiding conceal/carry permit owners on a level playing field for defense.

unfortunately, however, I feel that will be the opposite of what come of this...leaving law-abiders even more defenseless, eventually creating a population of outlaws carrying whatever/whenever the hell they want...

[Inferia]

my proposed gun law changes borne from this incident (laws mind you...something criminals disregard):

-U.S. citizenship required for purchase (no 'resident alien' malarkey)

-abolish gun-free zones except for federal and govt properties and airplanes/ports. Place law-abiding conceal/carry permit owners on a level playing field for defense.

unfortunately, however, I feel that will be the opposite of what come of this...leaving law-abiders even more defenseless, eventually creating a population of outlaws carrying whatever/whenever the hell they want...

I don't think requiring citizenship will cure anything. Most people who are on permanent residency in the US have been in this country for years. The only thing that stands between you and a citizenship is a test that asks you how many stars are on the flag and a few hundred bucks. Not letting these people get guns is not solving much.

[cupcake]

I don't think requiring citizenship will cure anything. Most people who are on permanent residency in the US have been in this country for years. The only thing that stands between you and a citizenship is a test that asks you how many stars are on the flag and a few hundred bucks. Not letting these people get guns is not solving much.

with all due respect, I see it differently...

Being a citizen, taking that test, shows that you want to be an American, not just nurse off her tit.

...and being an American affords you 2nd amendment rights. Just taking up space here doesn't (in my opinion). Obviously the govt feels differently...which I think will be the eventual downfall of this country.

edit: inferia, do not read this as a hatred of legal aliens...I work with two ex-soviet buddies who are unapologetically "Russian", though they live and prosper here. But I don't think they should have the same rights and freedoms as citizens.

check out other countries and how they deal with noncitizens before you start to even begin saying anything about America. I got an offer to move to Nicaragua and make ass loads of cash, but I would never be able to own a car there.

[Inferia]

with all due respect, I see it differently...

Being a citizen, taking that test, shows that you want to be an American, not just nurse off her tit.

...and being an American affords you 2nd amendment rights. Just taking up space here doesn't (in my opinion). Obviously the govt feels differently...which I think will be the eventual downfall of this country.

edit: inferia, do not read this as a hatred of legal aliens...I work with two ex-soviet buddies who are unapologetically "Russian", though they live and prosper here. But I don't think they should have the same rights and freedoms as citizens.

check out other countries and how they deal with noncitizens before you start to even begin saying anything about America. I got an offer to move to Nicaragua and make ass loads of cash, but I would never be able to own a car there.

No, I understand what you're trying to say. Well, I will counter. We pay taxes just as you do, the same amount of tax. By paying this tax, we expect a certain amount of rights. If you are taking the 2nd amendment away, do you then take away the 1st amendment too? Are we no longer able the freedom of speech, because that is only for the citizens of America? Do you also take away the freedom of assembly? Then if those amendments do not apply to noncitizens, are we then allow to own slaves? How do you justify allowing some amendments and not allowing other amendments? Well? If you want to take away those rights, hell, I shouldn't as hell pay as much tax as the rest of you. You said it first, no taxation without representation.

I don't know if you can compare all countries fairly. The US is an immigrate nation, this country is built on the backs of immigrants. Not all nations are, most nations are probably are not in favor of immigrants. And it takes a long ass time to become a permanent resident in this country. It took my family 7 years, and some even longer. It's not something you decide yesterday and just want to do. If Cho wanted to do this, he would have still done it if citizenship was required to purchase a gun. Becoming a citizen is not that hard in this country as compared to becoming a permanent resident. Even from a money point of view, citizenship a few hundred dollars + 1 year, permanent residency thousand or tens of thousands of dollars + 4 - 15 years. You really think you can stop someone from doing this just by reenforcing a citizenship on gun control? If they can put up with 4 - 15 years and thousands of dollars, they can put up with 1 year, some chump change, and a test that asks how many states are in the US.

And btw, immigrants here are not "just taking up space". We work, and pay taxes just like you do. Somehow people get immigrants, and illegal immigrants confused. By being an immigrant, we are automatically assumed to be leeching off the system here. It's not only rude, it's wrong. It's very arrogant to think that you're doing some sort of favor for letting me live here.

[jonathan83]

We pay taxes just as you do, the same amount of tax. By paying this tax, we expect a certain amount of rights.

I don't think people should be given rights just because of paying into the government. By that way of thinking, any random terrorist could buy their rights way too easy. You can't buy your rights (such as owning a gun).

I believe you need to earn them, by patriotism. Of course, actual born US citizens have a certain pride for their country and will fight for their country. You can't always trust foreign-born citizens, since they too have a special love for their own country. I'm not saying that all foreign-born citizens are spies or terrorists, but you can't deny that they have their own pride for their country, and in a time of war, or something where it's their home country vs the US, they might choose their country of birth, where their true patriotism lies.

I know this might not be the case 100%, but then again you never know. That's why we have to be safe rather than sorry. and I'm not saying that foreign-born citizens shouldn't have rights or whatever, just that they should be earned in other ways. For example, pledging allegiance to the US, taking tests on the English language, basic American history and culture, etc.

[Inferia]

I don't think people should be given rights just because of paying into the government. By that way of thinking, any random terrorist could buy their rights way too easy. You can't buy your rights (such as owning a gun).

I believe you need to earn them, by patriotism. Of course, actual born US citizens have a certain pride for their country and will fight for their country. You can't always trust foreign-born citizens, since they too have a special love for their own country. I'm not saying that all foreign-born citizens are spies or terrorists, but you can't deny that they have their own pride for their country, and in a time of war, or something where it's their home country vs the US, they might choose their country of birth, where their true patriotism lies.

I know this might not be the case 100%, but then again you never know. That's why we have to be safe rather than sorry. and I'm not saying that foreign-born citizens shouldn't have rights or whatever, just that they should be earned in other ways. For example, pledging allegiance to the US, taking tests on the English language, basic American history and culture, etc.

So why do you allow non-citizens to fight and die for America at the times of war? You think they're doing it for shits and giggles? Do you think they should be allowed guns then? Or should the US send them off with spears and swords?

And I'm sure the dude knows American history, and know the culture, and if he can go and kill 32 random people, I don't think he's worried about burning in hell if he fibs a lil during the "I pledge..." part.

[jonathan83]

So why do you allow non-citizens to fight and die for America at the times of war? You think they're doing it for shits and giggles? Do you think they should be allowed guns then? Or should the US send them off with spears and swords?

well if non-citizens join the military, that itself would be a 'pledge of allegiance' to the US, and would be renouncing their citizenship of their home country. of course, i dont think just any non-citizen should be able to join...they of course should have to pass certain tests like i mentioned above. they need to know about our country, not just come here and not know our history, culture, language, etc.

and just on a personal note, i know you know english, know our history, have lived here for a long time, etc. so i think you should have those rights! (if you also renounce your chinese citizenship )

This post has been edited by jonathan83: Apr 19 2007, 03:55 PM

[Inferia]

well if non-citizens join the military, that itself would be a 'pledge of allegiance' to the US, and would be denouncing their citizenship of their home country. of course, i dont think just any non-citizen should be able to join...they of course should have to pass certain tests like i mentioned above. they need to know about our country, not just come here and not know our history, culture, language, etc.

and just on a personal note, i know you know english, know our history, have lived here for a long time, etc. so i think you should have those rights! (if you also renounce your chinese citizenship;))

There are many foreign soldiers fighting for America in Iraq right now, by foreign I mean non-citizens who are trying to gain american permanent residency. They could or could not become citizens after that. Then as long as you're fighting for American you can hold guns? How do you know they won't turn that gun around on one of their fellow soldiers? Kinda hypocritical huh? Also the number for non-citizen American soldiers dying are rarely reported in the news.

I have been here for a long time, in fact, I've been here for 14 years. And in my opinion, if he wanted to buy guns to kill people, a citizenship test will not stop him.

[jonathan83]

And in my opinion, if he wanted to buy guns to kill people, a citizenship test will not stop him.

Actually I disagree with that. Now, with many "criminals" you're right. they will find ways.

But Cho Seung-Hui was a loner with NO friends and no social skills at all. I think if he was denied a gun legally, he wouldn't have got the guns. I don't see this guy going through gangs or criminals to get them. How would he? He didnt know anybody, and you have to know certain (bad) people to get into that stuff.

[Inferia]

Actually I disagree with that. Now, with many "criminals" you're right. they will find ways.

But Cho Seung-Hui was a loner with NO friends and no social skills at all. I think if he was denied a gun legally, he wouldn't have got the guns. I don't see this guy going through gangs or criminals to get them. How would he? He didnt know anybody, and you have to know certain (bad) people to get into that stuff.

Actually, I disagree with that too. So what if he had no friends, so what if he had no social skills. The guy doesn't need to go to gangs or criminals to get the guns. All he need to go through is the United States government. If the only thing that stood between him and what he wants is citizenship? The fucker will get it his citizenship. From the pro-gun point of view, guns don't kill people, people kill people, it won't do jack shit taking away permanent resident's rights of owning a gun, they will find a way.

The irony here is that personally I am against private ownership of guns, but dude, taking away our right of owning a gun isn't going to do much in terms of violence involving guns. Also, it's kinda shitty to take our rights away just on the bases that we're "foreign". Sometimes, I don't even know if this country is still an immigrant nation anymore. You sure as hell don't make it easy on us who are trying to become citizens of this country. I find it funny that the US still try to sell this "American Dream" business to everyone else in the world, that America is SO great, that by coming here, all your dreams are possible. When you do get here, all they really want to do is kick you out and well, think you shouldn't be here because you're taking away from "actual" Americans. Where is the dream there? And if you don't want immigrants here, perhaps America should try to sell themselves off a little differently. Like try, this country sucks, we'll take your rights away because you are foreign, so you really don't want to come here. This way not only do you preseve your American way of life, you also reduce job competition. Let's see how well this goes.

[cupcake]

Actually, I disagree with that too. So what if he had no friends, so what if he had no social skills. The guy doesn't need to go to gangs or criminals to get the guns. All he need to go through is the United States government. If the only thing that stood between him and what he wants is citizenship? The fucker will get it his citizenship. From the pro-gun point of view, guns don't kill people, people kill people, it won't do jack shit taking away permanent resident's rights of owning a gun, they will find a way.

The irony here is that personally I am against private ownership of guns, but dude, taking away our right of owning a gun isn't going to do much in terms of violence involving guns. Also, it's kinda shitty to take our rights away just on the bases that we're "foreign". Sometimes, I don't even know if this country is still an immigrant nation anymore. You sure as hell don't make it easy on us who are trying to become citizens of this country. I find it funny that the US still try to sell this "American Dream" business to everyone else in the world, that America is SO great, that by coming here, all your dreams are possible. When you do get here, all they really want to do is kick you out and well, think you shouldn't be here because you're taking away from "actual" Americans. Where is the dream there?

I truly am sorry, but the american dream is gone. we have enough americans. we have our culture. you missed that boat by a hundred years.

I don't think the US is still trying to sell shit to anyone overseas. products maybe, but definitely not a call to the free world like it once was.