Democratic Priorities that scare me... Options

[Hartmann]

I'm interested in seeing what the Democrats do in power but the following stuff scares the crap out of me.

1. Military: Force an immediate drawdown of troops in Iraq and conduct oversight hearings on missteps on the war. Democrats renewed their call for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign.
   
   Definitely not a good idea.
   
   
2. Transportation: Consolidate air traffic control facilities. Allow more foreign control of airlines. Limit the number of Transportation Security Administration airport screeners to 45,000. More oversight hearings on the Federal Aviation Administration.
   
   What?! Foreign control of airlines?! I can't wait to fly "Al-Qaeda Air"!!!
   
   
3. Minimum wage. Pass legislation to raise the minimum wage from the current $5.15 an hour to $7.25
   
   This has been covered before, a basic economics course would help immensely.

Things I am glad to see happening:

1. Veterans affairs: Increase oversight with detailed budget accountings. More funding for veterans' health care, including additional mental health counseling for vets returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.
2. Energy and environment: Increase incentives for biodiesel, ethanol and other alternative fuels as well as wind, solar, geothermal and other sources of alternative energy. Renegotiate oil and gas leases that waived royalty payments to the government. Impose a national cap on industrial carbon dioxide emissions. Resist Bush's efforts to open more public lands to oil exploration (iffy on the last part).
3. Intelligence: Increase attention given to emerging terrorist threats in Africa and Southeast Asia and devote more resources to North Korea and Iran. More oversight of terrorism and government surveillance.

I am on the fence about some of their healthcare stuff, taxes, and agriculture plans.

[Hartmann]

A decent explanation as to why increasing the minimum wage won't help as much as people think: http://ingrimayne.com/econ/AllocatingRatio...ceCeilings.html

[Billy]

A decent explanation as to why increasing the minimum wage won't help as much as people think: http://ingrimayne.com/econ/AllocatingRatio...ceCeilings.html

You only think it's good because you agree with it.

[Hartmann]

You only think it's good because you agree with it.

No, I think it's good because it follows the basic laws of economics instead of using power as the basis. You can't really argue with Smith and Mills, mostly 'cause they're dead.

[Billy]

No, I think it's good because it follows the basic laws of economics instead of using power as the basis. You can't really argue with Smith and Mills, mostly 'cause they're dead.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to argue (which you have in the past) that based on "inflation" the price of gas is actually really cheap, then I'm going to take that same "inflation" and claim minimum wage is currently too low. It has not seen an increase since 1997, almost 10 years. But no doubt, "inflation" has definitely made everything more expensive.

Here's a nice historical tidbit on the last time minimum wage was raised so the anti labor class can shut the fuck up about their "the world will end" theories on if minimum wage gets an increase:

Recent history offers something of a counterargument here: During a 1996 debate about raising the minimum wage from $4.25 to $5.15, opponents said that the increase would cost between 100,000 and 625,000 new jobs. In 1997, the non-farm economy created more than 3 million new jobs, unemployment was at its lowest rate in 28 years, the gross domestic product expanded by 3.8 percent, and the growth in earnings took off. In addition, real average hourly earnings saw their largest increases in 21 years. And in 1999, New Hampshire ranked first in the country with a 5.5-percent increase in jobs from the previous year.

Strikingly similar argument. Yet, that didn't happen last time. Nor the time before. And won't happen now. There is definitely something wrong with your "economics". Because what you claim in theory, does not even come close to happening in the real economic world. Actually, arguably, the opposite happens.

[Hartmann]

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to argue (which you have in the past) that based on "inflation" the price of gas is actually really cheap, then I'm going to take that same "inflation" and claim minimum wage is currently too low. It has not seen an increase since 1997, almost 10 years. But no doubt, "inflation" has definitely made everything more expensive.

Here's a nice historical tidbit on the last time minimum wage was raised so the anti labor class can shut the fuck up about their "the world will end" theories on if minimum wage gets an increase:
Strikingly similar argument. Yet, that didn't happen last time. Nor the time before. And won't happen now. There is definitely something wrong with your "economics". Because what you claim in theory, does not even come close to happening in the real economic world. Actually, arguably, the opposite happens.

I've never said that gas is really cheap (or cheap for that matter), I've said it is on par and not high. And it's on par for many reasons, including inflation, but also because of consumption of natural resources, war (unnatural inflation), etc. I agree that things are more expensive but I also know that there is balance here. We are not putting more people out on the street every time the dollar loses a few pennies of value... I mean, are we? I just think the balance is going to be disturbed and the long term effects will be more costly than an extra $2 an hour for businesses.

I don't think the world will end, but thanks for taking my view completely out of context. I think that we will see an "unnatural" decrease in small business, an "unnatural" jump in inflation (last time I checked inflation/deflation was natural), and a nail in the housing market's coffin (don't know why, just have a feeling).

I am just against it. I think that if it is going to happen it should happen at extremely slow pace, which basically offset it anyway (people getting yearly raises to compensate for inflation *cough*)

[Billy]

I think that we will see an "unnatural" decrease in small business, an "unnatural" jump in inflation (last time I checked inflation/deflation was natural), and a nail in the housing market's coffin (don't know why, just have a feeling).

Is that what happened last time? Because if something similar happened in the past then you have a case; a reason to believe the way you do. But if not, you really should stop holding on to flawed theories. If policy can be made based on past evidence instead of belief, then policy should be made based on past evidence instead of belief.

I am completely willing to agree with you on what will happen if the minimum wage gets increased if you can show me evidence to support these claims. Because I have not seen any so far. But I have seen plenty of evidence to refute them. And by evidence, I do not mean links to reputable economists. That's like claiming the Bible is fact by citing the pope. No, I want history. That's what I want.

[Hartmann]

Is that what happened last time? Because if something similar happened in the past then you have a case; a reason to believe the way you do. But if not, you really should stop holding on to flawed theories. If policy can be made based on past evidence instead of belief, then policy should be made based on past evidence instead of belief.

I am completely willing to agree with you on what will happen if the minimum wage gets increased if you can show me evidence to support these claims. Because I have not seen any so far. But I have seen plenty of evidence to refute them. And by evidence, I do not mean links to reputable economists. That's like claiming the Bible is fact by citing the pope. No, I want history. That's what I want.

But history in Economics is so hard to cite because of outliers. I mean, I could say some change caused the oil prices to spike in 1981, but there are so many other factors that had to occur to get that to happen that it is futile. To quote Joseph Stiglitz on the last federal minimum wage increase: "[it] was totally swamped by other factors going on in the economy"

I am willing to go into the minimum wage thing with an open mind, however, I have my doubts. I think that the current housing situation will play integral part in what happens. I think that the ecological stance the democrats take will impact what happens, if they open up drilling in places and gas prices go down, then the housing market goes back up (a small amount).

You say "flawed theory" but I don't know what you mean? You mean supply and demand? I am just using my understanding of economics as a whole to try and understand the minimum wage thing.

I will say that I read Alan Kreuger's study of fast food minimum wage and it's definitely interesting. Fast food places with higher minimum wage were able to keep people longer, hire more efficient workers, etc. I do think that's sociological more than economic but that's beside the point.

I guess the catch overall is not something that economics can predict, instead we need a sociologist that can tell us how people will react. My first instinct is that people will spend more, booming the economy a little, but there will also be an increase in debt (since most of this country is in debt anyway).