Georgia Invades South Ossetia, Russia Invades Georgia, The start of WW3? Nah... Options

[Billy]

TBLISI, Georgia (CNN) -- Georgia's parliament Saturday approved a request by President Mikhail Saakashvili's to impose a "state of war," as the conflict between Georgia and Russia escalated, Georgian officials said.

Saakashvili accused Russia of launching an unprovoked full-scale military attack against his country, including targeting civilian homes, while Russian officials insist their troops were protecting people from Georgia's attacks on South Ossetia, a breakaway Georgian region that borders Russia.

Russia's Interfax news agency said the death toll was at least 2,000 killed in the capital of South Ossetia and claimed the city has been destroyed.

Separatist-backed South Ossetian sources reported that about 1,600 people have died and 90 have been wounded in provincial capital Tskhinvali since Russian forces entered the territory Thursday.

Georgia said the overall death toll would be closer to 100.

Georgian officials said Russia has mobilized its Black Sea fleet off the coast of Abkhazia, another breakaway Georgian province.

Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin arrived Saturday in Vladikavkaz, near Russia's border with Georgia, Russia's Interfax reported.

Meanwhile, President George Bush, speaking from Beijing, called for an immediate halt to the violence, a stand-down by all troops, and an end to the Russian bombings. Video Watch Bush express concerns over situation »

The Georgian "state of war" order is not a formal declaration of war, and stops short of declaring martial law, according to Georgian officials who described it to CNN.

It gives Saakashvili powers he would not ordinarily have, such as issuing curfews, restricting the movement of people, or limiting commercial activities, those officials said.

It places the government on a 24-hour alert, said Georgian National Security Council Secretary Alexander Lomaia during a conference call with reporters.

Saakashvili asked Western leaders to pressure Russia to agree to an immediate cease-fire, which he said his country would willingly observe first.

"We are dealing with absolutely criminal and crazy acts of irresponsible and reckless decision makers, which is on the ground producing dramatic and tragic consequences," Saakashvili said Saturday afternoon.

A White House spokesman said President Bush spoke Saturday evening to Saakashvili and Russian President Medvedev.

The war, Saakashvili said, "is not about South Ossetia. It has never been in the first place. It is about destroying a small democratic nation aspiring to live in peace, freedom and liberty."

"This unprovoked, long-time-ago-planned invasion and aggression must stop," he said.

Russia, with a population of 146 million, is trying to destroy his country of 4.6 million people, he said, comparing it to the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

"I think what is at stake here is the post-Cold War order," Saakashvili said.

Inna Gagloyeva, spokeswoman for the South Ossetian Information and Press Committee, told Russia's Interfax news agency that Tskhinvali was being "massively shelled" with artillery guns.

It was unclear which side was in control of that city on Saturday. The Georgians said fighting raged, but the Russians said they had "liberated" the city.

"Battalion task forces have fully liberated Tskhinvali of Georgian armed forces and started pushing Georgian units out of the area of responsibility of the peacekeeping forces," said General Vladimir Boldyrev, commander of the Russian Ground Forces, in an interview with Interfax.

Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, a spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry, told a news conference that the Russian paratroopers will "implement the operation of enforcing peace" on both sides.

Nogovitsyn also confirmed that Georgians had shot down two Russian aircraft. Saakashvili said his military has shot down 10 Russian bombers.

Russia said the troops were also reinforcing the Russian peacekeepers already in South Ossetia.

"Our peacekeepers, along with reinforcement units, are currently conducting an operation to force the Georgian side to accept peace," Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said at the Kremlin. "They are also responsible for protecting the population."

Interfax said 15 peacekeepers were killed in the Friday attack by Georgian troops. Russia has opened a criminal probe into their deaths, Interfax reported.

Georgia, a former Soviet Republic, is a pro-Western ally of the United States intent on asserting its authority over South Ossetia and Abkhazia. which both have strong Russian-backed separatist movements.Video Watch Georgian minister describe fighting in South Ossetia »

Russia moved troops into South Ossetia early Friday after Georgia launched an operation in the breakaway region when its unilateral cease-fire was met with what it said was artillery fire from separatists that killed 10 people, including peacekeepers and civilians.

Russia charged that Georgia had targeted its peacekeepers stationed in the region.

Medvedev said Saturday that Georgia must be held responsible for the situation in South Ossetia.

"The people responsible for this humanitarian disaster need to be held liable for what they have done," Medvedev said. He said the humanitarian problems were caused by "the aggression launched by the Georgian side against the South Ossetian civilians and Russian peacekeepers."

Russian officials said more than 30,000 refugees have left South Ossetia and crossed into Russia over the past two days, since fighting began, Interfax reported.

Maia Kardava, a Red Cross spokeswoman in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi was unable to provide refugee or casualty figures Saturday morning because she said aid workers were still gathering information and visiting hospitals in South Ossetia and western Georgia.

Russian forces bombed several targets in Georgia on Saturday, according to Kardava and the British Foreign Office, which advised against all nonessential travel to Georgia.

Russian aircraft bombarded military and civilian targets the port town of Poti, on Georgia's Black Sea coast, Kardava and British and Georgian officials said. Eight Georgians were killed in the port town, Georgian officials said.

In the town of Senaki, just inland from Poti, Russian forces damaged a railway line, a military base, and a center housing civilians who fled from nearby Abkhazia.

Military bases at Vaziani and Marneuli also came under attack, the British Foreign Office said, and Russian aircraft bombed the Georgian town of Gori, about 35 miles northwest of Tbilisi, Georgian officials said.

Inside South Ossetia, civilians have been without water, electricity, and basic services for more than a day, Kardava said. She said the Red Cross was unable to reach colleagues based in Tskhinvali because their phones had lost power and they were huddled in bomb shelters.

Also Saturday, the commander of Georgian troops stationed in Iraq said the 2,000 soldiers there will be withdrawn from Iraq "very soon."
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Colonel Bondo Maisuradze said the United States would provide the transport to get them out of Iraq. He said he had no time frame for the move.

Saakashvili told CNN Friday that the troops were needed in Georgia to defend against the Russian military.

I'm sure everyone has read about this by now.

I wonder if this will escalate. I do know Georgia is a close ally of ours and they control a major oil pipeline that runs oil from the east to Europe, which would be bad news if Russia were able to take. I guess we'll see what happens.

[Seeker]

I'm sure everyone has read about this by now.

I wonder if this will escalate. I do know Georgia is a close ally of ours and they control a major oil pipeline that runs oil from the east to Europe, which would be bad news if Russia were able to take. I guess we'll see what happens.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L9618164.htm

[Mommy]

Wow, this situation is quickly escalating. The US is condemning the actions of Russia. We have to be very cautious of whose toes we step on because Russia is not a force to be reckoned with. At the same time, Georgia is a democratic, sovereign nation that should continue to maintain its independence from Russia. Additionally, the overthrow of Georgia by Russia could begin a domino effect, threatening surrounding nations like the Ukraine. Finally, major economic pipeline runs through there. What the hell do we do in a situation like this? Russia has some major allies like Iran and possibly China.

[Seeker]

The Georgians started this by attacking South Ossetia. The Russians are doing nothing but protecting Russian citizens.

Georgia deserves to have their ass handed to them... seriously, what were the Georgians thinking... they want to take on RUSSIA? The Georgian president is an arrogant little prick that has his nose so far up Bush's asshole he actually believes Bush will come running in to help... LOLOLS

[woody]

here's what we do...


nothing

[Seeker]

Guess who is advising the Georgians militarily? The Israelis.

God damned Zionists can't keep their grubby hands off of anything.

[Hartmann]

Guess who is advising the Georgians militarily? The Israelis.

God damned Zionists can't keep their grubby hands off of anything.

And us...

What's wrong with the Israelis advising someone?

What if this was the Korean War all over again, would you have issues with China giving aid/advice to N. Korea or would you not care because they're not "Zionists"?

[impala454]

yeah I don't see them dragging us in. seems like that's what they're trying to do though.

[Mommy]

The Georgians started this by attacking South Ossetia. The Russians are doing nothing but protecting Russian citizens.

Georgia deserves to have their ass handed to them... seriously, what were the Georgians thinking... they want to take on RUSSIA? The Georgian president is an arrogant little prick that has his nose so far up Bush's asshole he actually believes Bush will come running in to help... LOLOLS

But didn't South Ossetia belong to Georgia in the first place?

[woody]

they declared their independence a while ago, but i think no one but s. ossetia cared. so technically yes it belongs to georgia cause s. ossetia isn't formally recognized as independent, just de facto

This post has been edited by woody: Aug 11 2008, 02:21 PM

[impala454]

pretty interesting read on what's gone down so far:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)

[Mommy]

I just read the speech McCain gave today, and it was pretty interesting as well

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080811/...olitico/19061_1

scroll down a bit for the full speech

[schwab]

But didn't South Ossetia belong to Georgia in the first place?

Russia has been in S Ossetia since the day Georgia was formed, both regions of Georgia have claimed independence over 15 years ago and have been self-operating since then. Its not like Georgia ever had control over these regions, and nor do they ever want to be associated with Georgia. I do not know why they do not get the same "freedoms" that Kosovo got to break away and become their own nation, my guess is the US wont have another Russian backed territory, being the only difference.

S Ossetia had a cease fire deal in place with Georgia, and agreed to have Russian peacekeepers in there, its always been that way. Georgia took first action on a gamble, by shelling S Ossetia they were hoping to take it back. they were hoping Russia wouldnt retaliate due to Georgia having the US backing, and if they did, they were hoping the US would come in. Needless to say, Georgia lost that gamble. I do not support Russia by any means, but you cant expect to be able to shell towns with their peacekeepers and expect nothing in return, breaking a ceasefire, which gave Russia an excuse to come in and do this. Bombing the towns did kill a lot of people there, which Russia considers their citizens, and that was a bad move. Russia now had an excuse to take over the land and now are going to claim it as their own or give it independence (independence probably would not be a bad thing for it). Russia did go overboard on their invasion, but its Russia, what else would you expect.....

[impala454]

From what I've been reading, a lot of those people are actually Russian citizens, and want to be part of N Ossetia.

[blaarg]

I love how everyone has become an expert on Caucasian politics/geography/war-strategy.
I guess Middle Eastern geo-political expertise is too narrow...

On a random note, remember when there was a live grenade was thrown at George Bush during his speech in Georgia?
I do!

On another side note...my friend was planning on touring that region (Turkey, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan) via train. What's funny, is he will have an incredible amount of trouble getting to Armenia/Azerbaijan now because his route has him first going through Turkey which means he can't enter Azerbaijan via:
1) Georgia (because of warfare)
2) Armenia (because of the strained Turkey/Armenia relations)
3) Iran (because well, he's American and it's Iran)

[Hartmann]

I love how everyone has become an expert on Caucasian politics/geography/war-strategy.
I guess Middle Eastern geo-political expertise is too narrow...

On a random note, remember when there was a live grenade was thrown at George Bush during his speech in Georgia?
I do!

On another side note...my friend was planning on touring that region (Turkey, Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan) via train. What's funny, is he will have an incredible amount of trouble getting to Armenia/Azerbaijan now because his route has him first going through Turkey which means he can't enter Azerbaijan via:
1) Georgia (because of warfare)
2) Armenia (because of the strained Turkey/Armenia relations)
3) Iran (because well, he's American and it's Iran)

He can go through Iran, it's actually quite simple. He'll have more trouble getting into the States but entering Iran, as long as he gets the proper paperwork filled out, is not an issue.

I have filled out my paperwork to head there in the middle of March of next year and will be entering most of the 'Stans, Iran, and Ukraine.

I don't see any posts in this thread which claim to be "expert" opinions.

[chook]

Thanks Hartmann

[Seeker]

russia moves tactical nukes into south ossetia

http://freeandindependent.wordpress.com/20...-south-ossetia/

[Hartmann]

Thanks Hartmann

If you are the one trying to get in to Iran, the secret is to find a tour group to take a "guided tour" of the country. Usually these places will file your visa application for you.

You will be scrutinized when entering the states and you can expect a pretty thorough interrogation at passport control.

[impala454]

russia moves tactical nukes into south ossetia

http://freeandindependent.wordpress.com/20...-south-ossetia/

You will believe anything I swear. Look back through the sources of this information, they all go to dead ends. And read the damn text, does this make a shred of sense to you?

Russia has deployed tactical nuclear weapons to South Ossetia. The SS-21 Missile launchers are relatively weak compared to bombs that have already been used against Georgia by the Russian air force.

WTF!?

[James]

You will believe anything I swear. Look back through the sources of this information, they all go to dead ends. And read the damn text, does this make a shred of sense to you?


WTF!?

Shocked that a nuclear weapon could be weaker than a conventional bomb? Why? A small enough nuclear load and a large enough conventional explosive and there you go.

[impala454]

Read it again mr. devil's advocate.

"relatively weak compared to bombs already used" ?!?!

is it possible? sure. is it reasonable/probable? no.