Obama's Proposed Tax Hikes, And you thought you already paid enough? Options

[Billy]

Proposed changes in taxes after 2008 General election:

CAPITAL GAINS TAX

MCCAIN proposes:
0% on home sales up to $500,000 per home (couples)


McCain does not propose any change in existing home sales income tax.

OBAMA proposes:
28% on profit from ALL home sales

How does this affect you? If you sell your home and make a profit, you will pay 28% of your gain on taxes. If you are heading toward retirement and would like to down-size your home or move into a retirement community, 28% of the money you make from your home will go to taxes. This proposal will adversely affect the elderly who are counting on the income from their homes as part of their retirement income.

DIVIDEND TAX

MCCAIN proposes:



15% (no change)

OBAMA proposes:



39.6%

How will this affect you? If you have any money invested in stock market, IRA, mutual funds, college funds, life insurance, retirement accounts, or anything that pays or reinvests dividends, you will be paying nearly 40% of the money earned on taxes if Obama become president. The experts predict that 'higher tax rates on dividends and capital gains would crash the stock market yet do absolutely nothing to cut the deficit.

INCOME TAX

MCCAIN proposes:



No changes, ie:
Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $31,250

OBAMA proposes"
Reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts, ie:
Single making 30K - tax $8,400
Single making 50K - tax $14,000
Single making 75K - tax $23,250
Married making 60K - tax $16,800
Married making 75K - tax $21,000
Married making 125K - tax $38,750

Under Obama your taxes will more than double! How does this affect you? No explanation needed. This is pretty straight forward. You can figure that out according to your situation.

INHERITANCE TAX



MCCAIN proposes:



0% (No change, Bush repealed this tax)

OBAMA proposes:



Restore the inheritance tax

How does this affect you? Many families have lost businesses, farms, ranches, and homes that have been in their families for generations because they could not afford the inheritance tax. Those bequeathing their assets to loved ones will most likely lose them to these taxes. The sad part about this tax is that it was supposedly aimed at the uber-rich but hit the middle-class person.

NEW TAXES BEING PROPOSED BY OBAMA

* New government taxes proposed on homes that are more than 2400 square feet

* New gasoline taxes (as if gas weren't high enough already) to overhaul national transportation infrastructure.

* New taxes on natural resource consumption (heating, gas, water, electricity)

* New taxes on retirement accounts and last but not least....

* New taxes to pay for socialized medicine.

[Billy]

Admittedly, this was from an email I received. I have not yet checked the validity. Feel free to discuss.

[pebkac]

I like it. The person who put that together ignored the parts of Obama's tax plan that would lower taxes. Taken as a whole, Obama's proposal would actually cut government revenue (although admittedly not as much as McCain's tax proposal would). But of course if you only take the parts of his plan that involve raising revenue but not the ones that lower it, then it looks like Obama's a tax-and-spender.

This post has been edited by pebkac: Jul 28 2008, 06:38 PM

[James]

Feel free to share the parts of tax that he's lowering. Honestly, I can't see them being nearly as important as the taxes he's raising. Lowering an obscure tax that applies to 1% of the population while raising a common tax that applies to everyone doesn't please me.

[Dogmeat]

i seriously hope obamas plane crashes and he dies.

seriously.

fucking communist.

[schwab]

its amazing how all the things i have read about obama lately have been from emails.....is it just that the right believes everything that is in their emails?

[Oasis]

its amazing how all the things i have read about obama lately have been from emails.....is it just that the right believes everything that is in their emails?

Kind of like how the liberals believe everything they read on their left wing propaganda websites?

[Psykopath]

i seriously hope obamas plane crashes and he dies.

seriously.

fucking communist.

I hope McCain dies from a heart-attack.

seriously.

Fucking nazi.

[Dogmeat]

I hope McCain dies from a heart-attack.

seriously.

Fucking nazi.

McCain isn't a nazi, he's way too damned liberal for that.

I think we need to fucking elect John Ashcroft for president

[Psykopath]

McCain isn't a nazi, he's way too damned liberal for that.

I think we need to fucking elect John Ashcroft for president

...

You've smoked waaaaaaaay too much crack.

[Dogmeat]

...

You've smoked waaaaaaaay too much crack.

I think we need Ashcroft for President and then have Cheney be our envoy to the UN ...

[impala454]

its amazing how all the things i have read about obama lately have been from emails.....is it just that the right believes everything that is in their emails?

You don't have to believe emails to know that democrats want to take all your fucking money so they can spend it in order to control your life. Obama is no different.

[Psykopath]

You don't have to believe emails to know that democrats want to take all your fucking money so they can spend it in order to control your life. Obama is no different.

Thanks, jackass....



I spit water on my keyboard after reading this!

[impala454]

hehe

you should invest in one of these:
http://gadizmo.com/duraflex-flexible-keyboard.php

[Dogmeat]

Thanks, jackass....
I spit water on my keyboard after reading this!

So how do the democrats NOT want to take all your money, at least if you're a middle-to-upper-middle class american?

I can't for the life of me figure that one out ...

[Psykopath]

So how do the democrats NOT want to take all your money, at least if you're a middle-to-upper-middle class american?

I can't for the life of me figure that one out ...

pleeeeeease.....



EVERY politician, regardless of party, wants to take chunks out of peoples' income!

[chook]

I think techsans has lost its middle of the road fence sitters!

[Jim]

I think techsans has lost its middle of the road fence sitters!

I'm still here

[cmac]

increased taxes pay for illegitimate wars.

[impala454]

pleeeeeease.....
EVERY politician, regardless of party, wants to take chunks out of peoples' income!

Well duh. Taxes are needed to pay for shit. But if you think it's equal across parties, you're smokin somethin good. Republicans support tax cuts, Democrats support tax hikes (because they want to implement programs that control the population). I don't understand how you can oppose this notion. It's a well known fact.

[impala454]

increased taxes pay for illegitimate wars.

Bush cut taxes. But I'm guessing you're just pulling a Barry and trying to sound cool with the statement you made (which really doesn't say anything at all).

[Spectatrix]

Admittedly, this was from an email I received. I have not yet checked the validity. Feel free to discuss.

I would like to discuss your lack of an ability to AT LEAST check Snopes. You should know better than to distribute shit like this.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/taxes.asp

Jesus tap-dancing Christ...

[Jim]

I would like to discuss your lack of an ability to AT LEAST check Snopes. You should know better than to distribute shit like this.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/taxes.asp

Jesus tap-dancing Christ...

You know what they say about Snopes...

[impala454]

snopes is fake

[Psykopath]

Well duh. Taxes are needed to pay for shit. But if you think it's equal across parties, you're smokin somethin good. Republicans support tax cuts, Democrats support tax hikes (because they want to implement programs that control the population). I don't understand how you can oppose this notion. It's a well known fact.

Well, they say they do, for the most part, when it's politically convenient for them.

[impala454]

Politically convenient? How was it politically convenient for Bush to cut taxes during his second term?

[Psykopath]

Politically convenient? How was it politically convenient for Bush to cut taxes during his second term?

He pandered to his base with said cuts.

[Spectatrix]

Yes, Republicans support tax cuts... without a corresponding reduction in spending. Neither party is fiscally responsible.

[Psykopath]

Yes, Republicans support tax cuts... without a corresponding reduction in spending. Neither party is fiscally responsible.

Finally someone pointed it out!
(...'cause I forgot to mention it, yes... Yay for teh Spec!)

[Oasis]

I would like to discuss your lack of an ability to AT LEAST check Snopes. You should know better than to distribute shit like this.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/taxes.asp

Jesus tap-dancing Christ...

Who gives a shit if it's fake?

I'm sure it's been circulated widely enough that it hurt Obama's chances

[impala454]

He pandered to his base with said cuts.

pandered to his base? so you didn't appreciate lower taxes? and how is "pandering to his base" helping him? why can't you just see that they simply want lower taxes?? why does it have to be some evil devious motivation?

[Jim]

Who gives a shit if it's fake?

I'm sure it's been circulated widely enough that it hurt Obama's chances

Because Inter-office e-mails like this will determine his win or loss...

[impala454]

Yes, Republicans support tax cuts... without a corresponding reduction in spending. Neither party is fiscally responsible.

well running a country aint like balancing your checkbook and having one income and five bills to pay, so i don't know that you have much place to call them "fiscally irresponsible". and saying "neener neener republicans do this" isn't exactly a response to what was said. it's not an excuse for democrats to take more taxes and increase spending. and I don't know that the bush administration had any choice in spending when there's a war going on and huge hits to the economy. lets compare the costs of war or cleaning up after some bad mortgage lending to the price of providing health care to 300 million people.

[impala454]

Here ya go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_i...e_United_States

Current estimates put U.S. health care spending at approximately 16% of GDP.[2][3] The health share of GDP is expected to continue its historical upward trend, reaching 19.5 percent of GDP by 2017.[2] In 2007, the U.S. spent a projected $2.26 trillion on health care, or $7,439 per person.

2.25 TRILLION in one year... and Obama wants to take that over and tax us to pay for it all....

I honestly don't see how someone can be a taxpayer and vote for this lunatic

[Jim]

well running a country aint like balancing your checkbook and having one income and five bills to pay, so i don't know that you have much place to call them "fiscally irresponsible". and saying "neener neener republicans do this" isn't exactly a response to what was said. it's not an excuse for democrats to take more taxes and increase spending. and I don't know that the bush administration had any choice in spending when there's a war going on and huge hits to the economy. lets compare the costs of war or cleaning up after some bad mortgage lending to the price of providing health care to 300 million people.

Not gonig into war was an option...

[impala454]

Not gonig into war was an option...

Yeah, letting a dictator continue to dodge weapons inspections was definitely an option. A wrong one IMHO. I think helping them get their freedom is worth it. If you look at how we got our freedoms, it was because we fought for it, but we wouldn't have gotten it without the help of other countries. I hate to say it but if it werent for France we'd all be having tea & crumpets & playing sissyball for the sillynannies.

[Psykopath]

pandered to his base? so you didn't appreciate lower taxes? and how is "pandering to his base" helping him? why can't you just see that they simply want lower taxes?? why does it have to be some evil devious motivation?

Not a single person in my family was affected by Bush's tax cuts...except my Grandfather, who is RICH.

[impala454]

Not a single person in my family was affected by Bush's tax cuts...except my Grandfather, who is RICH.

So, not a single person in your family pays income tax?

/calls IRS

[Psykopath]

So, not a single person in your family pays income tax?

/calls IRS

oh, my my my... I keep forgetting why I found it pointless to post in NPR anymore (or to talk politics in any fashion except in person, for that matter).

Then you post something and the reasoning just comes flooding back into my brain.




I hate Bush, you love him. Bottom line of this argument, right there. That should save us from the umpteenth dipshit flame war thread on this issue.

This post has been edited by Psykopath: Jul 29 2008, 02:24 PM

[impala454]

I don't love or hate Bush. What I hate is how people like you believe Obama or Hillary or whoever says stuff like "Bush's tax cuts only help the wealthy" which is utter bullshit. His cuts were across the board, and the largest cuts were for the LOWEST bracket! So do me a favor and lose the stupid ass "oh my my my crap" and calling me a bush cock sucker instead of looking at the facts.

It honestly pains me to think that someone like Obama might get elected because even college educated people like yourself will believe anything they say. If you guys believe him just think of what all the completely uneducated Americans will believe (from a very biased media no doubt).

[Dogmeat]

I don't think Bush is conservative enough personally ...

[Inferia]

Yeah, letting a dictator continue to dodge weapons inspections was definitely an option. A wrong one IMHO. I think helping them get their freedom is worth it. If you look at how we got our freedoms, it was because we fought for it, but we wouldn't have gotten it without the help of other countries. I hate to say it but if it werent for France we'd all be having tea & crumpets & playing sissyball for the sillynannies.

Isn't this rather idealistic and romanticizing vision of the US? Here comes the white knight in his shining armor to save the poor oppressed people of Iraq? I feel like that's what fairy tales are made of. I guess when it comes to idealism, liberals and conservatives are not all that much different, they just romanticize different stuff.

[Dogmeat]

Isn't this rather idealistic and romanticizing vision of the US? Here comes the white knight in his shining armor to save the poor oppressed people of Iraq? I feel like that's what fairy tales are made of. I guess when it comes to idealism, liberals and conservatives are not all that much different, they just romanticize different stuff.

I see, so the people of Iraq weren't oppressed under Saddam?

Right.

I'm sure the people in Iran aren't oppressed either ... all you gotta do is go fuck some slut in Iran and you get hanged for it.

Go fascist Islam, WOO!

[Spectatrix]

First, here's another article about that email, this time from FactCheck.org (fantastic non-partisan site, by the way): http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/woul...ofits_if_i.html

Secondly, to respond to Impala and other folks chiming in to condemn Obama...

I know that Bush's tax cuts were made across all tax brackets. I also know that Obama's income tax plan is to maintain the cuts for couples making below 250k/year (singles below 200k), while letting them expire for those above that mark. Obama would have even further tax cuts for some of the lower brackets. The analyses I've read on the issue have concluded that both candidates would lower income taxes by nearly equal amounts, just with distributional differences.

Obama and McCain also both wish to reduce (but not eliminate) the estate tax. Admittedly, Obama may raise the capital gains and dividends taxes.

I am not happy about a universal health care plan. I hope it largely crashes & burns. I'm fine with providing health care for uninsured minors, less happy with providing it for adults who should be able to fend for themselves. I'd rather the government put its energy into getting rid of the stranglehold that unscrupulous insurers have on our healthcare system and possibly also providing incentives for clinics to offer discounted care.

But that's my main beef with Obama. I have far more issues with McCain, primarily with his stances on foreign policy and abortion rights.

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: Jul 29 2008, 04:04 PM

[dauss]

It won't matter who wins. How else are we going to close a $490,000,000,000 deficit? That's not even including an additional estimated $80,000,000,000 for that thing we're doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. You may argue that it is a smaller percentage of the GDP than some previous record deficits, but that's a lame excuse for the poor fiscal responsibility of the current administration.

Didn't Clinton raise taxes which was then followed the greatest economic growth in the history of the United States?

Bush had generous tax cuts which he claimed benefits the economy, which then followed economic stimulus checks because the economy was reaping all the "benefits" from the previous cut.

[Dogmeat]

bill gates had more to do with "the greatest economic growth" in the history of the united states than clinton did.

except for his little bitch inventing the internet I guess

And, I would hardley call that time period the "greatest economic growth in the history of the United States" if you lived in the Rocky Mountain region ..

All of us out here were eating dog shit throughout the late 80's and 90's with billy bob and all his wonderful "roadless" orders and shit

As far as I'm concerned everyone in california can fucking starve to death on $5.00 a gallon gas, it serves the assholes right for not supporting domestic drilling all these years.

[Billy]

Who gives a shit if it's fake?

I'm sure it's been circulated widely enough that it hurt Obama's chances

Read the snopes link she posted. It's only partially fake. Way to spin it, Spec.

[Billy]

Not gonig into war was an option...

You DO realize Obama supports military action against Iran right??

No matter who you vote for, there will be a war, folks.

[Billy]

First, here's another article about that email, this time from FactCheck.org (fantastic non-partisan site, by the way): http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/woul...ofits_if_i.html

Secondly, to respond to Impala and other folks chiming in to condemn Obama...

I know that Bush's tax cuts were made across all tax brackets. I also know that Obama's income tax plan is to maintain the cuts for couples making below 250k/year (singles below 200k), while letting them expire for those above that mark. Obama would have even further tax cuts for some of the lower brackets. The analyses I've read on the issue have concluded that both candidates would lower income taxes by nearly equal amounts, just with distributional differences.

Obama and McCain also both wish to reduce (but not eliminate) the estate tax. Admittedly, Obama may raise the capital gains and dividends taxes.

I am not happy about a universal health care plan. I hope it largely crashes & burns. I'm fine with providing health care for uninsured minors, less happy with providing it for adults who should be able to fend for themselves. I'd rather the government put its energy into getting rid of the stranglehold that unscrupulous insurers have on our healthcare system and possibly also providing incentives for clinics to offer discounted care.

But that's my main beef with Obama. I have far more issues with McCain, primarily with his stances on foreign policy and abortion rights.

This isn't that shit hole Europe. This is America. Here, we should have the right, when we earn our money, to keep our money. It doesn't matter how much you earn, you shouldn't be responsible for the upkeep of this country any more than anyone else. The rich are already unfairly taxed enough.

[Spectatrix]

Read the snopes link she posted. It's only partially fake. Way to spin it, Spec.

It was mostly fake. How the fuck did I spin it?

You DO realize Obama supports military action against Iran right??

No matter who you vote for, there will be a war, folks.

He said he wouldn't rule out military action if it was necessary. It's not his first course of action. McCain & company seem to want to eschew diplomatic options altogether.

This isn't that shit hole Europe. This is America. Here, we should have the right, when we earn our money, to keep our money. It doesn't matter how much you earn, you shouldn't be responsible for the upkeep of this country any more than anyone else. The rich are already unfairly taxed enough.

I'm not thrilled about having a progressive tax system, but it's gonna be a cold day in hell before we get a flat tax. And I've said it before, I'll say it again... I don't really care what kind of tax system we have if the damn government would just reign in spending.

[Dogmeat]

what happened to russia is going to happen to the US .... the fucking socialists are going to hoarde more and more and more money and power for themselves and the government is going to get so big and bureaucratic it's going to fall apart under it's own weight.

This country WILL split, and it's going to split into the northern rockies becoming a part of canada, mexico will consume california and texas, then the east and midwest will be their own country ...

[impala454]

I love when people hate on bush for tax cuts (still baffles me) and then later talk about how much they'd love a flat tax. do any of you realize what a flat tax would do? it would be a GINORMOUS tax cut of EPIC proportions for the rich, and a GINORMOUS tax increase for everyone else.

wake up and realize who pays the most taxes in this country people.

and Christine, not to strike back at ya, but if you really believe Obama won't raise taxes for anyone making less than $250k you're really naive.

[Spectatrix]

I don't know whether he would or not. I also don't know whether McCain would or not. I trust them both as much as I do any politician (i.e. about as far as I can throw 'em), but I may as well compare what they're proposing rather than engaging in rampant speculation.

I hate both parties. I'm not particularly thrilled about either candidate, but I'm somewhat less scared of Obama than McCain and that's based on reasoning and analysis of their positions rather than pure media hype (or bullshit emails). I don't love Obama. I don't hate McCain. I'm a liberal-leaning Libertarian and I think pretty much all mainstream politicians suck ass.

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: Jul 29 2008, 10:44 PM

[impala454]

Christine I think your own personal speculation will be worth 10x more than any political candidate's pre-election "proposals".

It's not hard to speculate that a democrat president has a pretty high percentage chance of raising taxes coming into office after a republican who's cut taxes.

[Mommy]

Obama in office scares the crap out of me.

[Spectatrix]

Christine I think your own personal speculation will be worth 10x more than any political candidate's pre-election "proposals".

It's not hard to speculate that a democrat president has a pretty high percentage chance of raising taxes coming into office after a republican who's cut taxes.

It's also not hard to speculate that a republican president would cut or maintain taxes and continue to increase spending. *shrugs*

[impala454]

It's also not hard to speculate that a republican president would cut or maintain taxes and continue to increase spending. *shrugs*

I'm not disagreeing with you on that. But I don't see how you think that's validation for the democrats to keep raising taxes and spending.

I guess my question to you would be: Which do you prefer? Higher taxes and more government control or lower taxes and less government control?

And of course it's a very loaded question. Whereas if you chose the latter, I don't see how you could vote for Obama.

[Dogmeat]

It's also not hard to speculate that a republican president would cut or maintain taxes and continue to increase spending. *shrugs*

If you think the Democrats will reduce or maintain current spending levels you are insane.

All they will do is redistribute what is already being spent, then increase it more.

We're beyond the point of no return as far as out of control government spending ....

The best we can hope for is somone who will have a stronger economic policy in order to bolster the gratuitious pork project everyone in Washington is so fond of, and I completley fail to see how taking more of people's money and redistributing it to whoever voted for whoever is going to solve this problem.

Ultimatley, Americans, but ESPECIALLY poor Americans .... need to stop fucking expecting the god damned government to fix all the problems in their lives for them and start taking some initiative.

I am so sick of hearing about how "horrible" the economy is....If you aren't a fat lazy fuck, you can do pretty well right now.

[Spectatrix]

Both parties plan on spending our money and setting up more governmental control. They just plan to spend on different things. Back when the Republican party stood for a balanced budget and small government, I would have fully supported them -- but that's a thing of the past.

Since I now hate the fiscal policy of both parties, I have to judge them on other issues... like social policy. Based on that, the democratic party has my tentative support.

[Dogmeat]

Since I now hate the fiscal policy of both parties, I have to judge them on other issues... like social policy. Based on that, the democratic party has my tentative support.

Why?

[Spectatrix]

Because I support abortion rights, gay marriage, gay adoption, stem cell research, and the abolition of abstinence-only sex education.

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: Jul 30 2008, 10:08 AM

[Dogmeat]

Because I support abortion rights, gay marriage, gay adoption, stem cell research, and the abolition of abstinence-only sex education.

Well, I guess I can see where you're coming from, I've said for as long as I can remember that the Republican party would easily be the most well-equipped party in Washington so to speak were they not in the back pocket of the Christian Coalition.

However, look at who the Republican canidate is .... If I'm not mistaken, McCain has said he opposes abortion rights, but do you think he'd ever actually support overturning Roe Vs. Wade after he got elected? Hell no.

You can't take a god damned thing a politicians says seriously while they're on the campaign trail. It doesn't matter who it is, they're going to say whatever they think a certain group of people want to hear to get elected.

That's why it plays into who I would vote for, I look at what they promise vs. what is probably actually going to happen, and that's why I am just shaking my head at Obama .... he's done nothing but preach from fantasy land in every speech I've ever heard of his.

[THECHICKEN]

McCain is liberal enough that no major conservative change is going to be pushed by him. Obama will push for a LOT more "change" in the way of a liberal agenda.

I wouldn't mind obama if he would pull his head out of his ass on foreign issues, as that is pretty much all the president has power over (besides the veto).

Sadly i've already learned that it doesn't really matter who the president is. The congress is what has the power in our gov. and though one president may have guns banned like under clinton, the next president can unban them.

So meh, if Obama gets elected taxes go up, soldiers get pulled from iraq, etc. ... then obama is out of office, iraq is a shit hole from pulling out too soon (so we need have to deal with them again), and taxes are lowered. Its a cycle, guess we are due for a backslide so we can do everything all over again.

[impala454]

Both parties plan on spending our money and setting up more governmental control.

what is the Republican's plan on setting up more governmental control?

[woody]

i've taken the position of 'we're fucked either way'

[Dogmeat]

So meh, if Obama gets elected taxes go up, soldiers get pulled from iraq, etc. ... then obama is out of office, iraq is a shit hole from pulling out too soon (so we need have to deal with them again), and taxes are lowered. Its a cycle, guess we are due for a backslide so we can do everything all over again.

I take it you don't make more than about $30,000 a year?

[Spectatrix]

what is the Republican's plan on setting up more governmental control?

Anything in the vein of the Patriot Act and NSA's warrantless wiretapping program, for starters. Also, wanting constitutional amendments to ban abortion and criminalize gay marriage.

[impala454]

How has the Patriot Act or warrantless wiretapping added government control over your life? There's not any choices being taken away. Some privacy perhaps but we've argued the wiretapping crap before so no need to hash that again.

Socializing parts of people's lives and taking away choices they currently have is what I'd call control.

I can understand your social concerns, even if I don't agree with them. I wasn't aware though that the general Republican plan was to criminalize gay marraige. At the very least that would be political suicide in our increasingly pussified (PC) society.

IMHO social concerns are fine, but people's health, money, the economy, and national defense & foreign policy are a much higher priority in selecting our leaders than allowing some gay dudes to get a piece of paper and a tiny tax break, or letting some chick that got knocked up on accident murder her child because she's too irresponsible to take care of it.

[THECHICKEN]

I take it you don't make more than about $30,000 a year?

actually the number is around 200,000 for considered "rich" ... those are who obama claims he wants to tax. He also says there will be small business exemptions. So yeah... of course he can raise taxes against his word, but im going off what he states.

[impala454]

but im going off what he states.

which is what, exactly?

[THECHICKEN]

which is what, exactly?

Heard on the radio a speech he made about his tax plans. The jist of it was that he would close tax loop holes for rich, lower taxes on middle class, and for every social plan he made - he had a plan to pay them off.

[impala454]

kinda lacking on the details don't ya think? what loop holes is he going to close for the rich? are you aware that the rich pay like 10% more than you do in taxes? who's the middle class and how much is he going to lower those people's taxes by? what's his plan to pay off these "social plans"? he wants to socialize an industry that we currently spend $2.25 trillion on... oh but he has a "plan" to pay that off...

I'm not trying to make you guys vote differently, I just want yall to think objectively about what either candidate says. Especially when they grandstand and generalize their statements as bad as Obama does.

[Dogmeat]

Making $200,000 now is _NOT_ the same $200,000 it was in the 90's, and it royally pisses me off people can't fucking figure this out.

It was the same stupid shit when Hillary was claiming "You are going to go back to paying what you were in the 90's" ....

Well, you mindless scumsucking bitch cunt (Obama is one of these too), with the value of the dollar being worth MUCH less than it was back then, you are absolutley HAMMERING people with those taxes.

People are so fucking stupid when it comes to buying into the horse shit about "taxing the rich" it just apalls me ...

People making $200k these days are fairly well off, they are FAR from "rich" ...

[Psykopath]

Making $200,000 now is _NOT_ the same $200,000 it was in the 90's, and it royally pisses me off people can't fucking figure this out.

It was the same stupid shit when Hillary was claiming "You are going to go back to paying what you were in the 90's" ....

Well, you mindless scumsucking bitch cunt (Obama is one of these too), with the value of the dollar being worth MUCH less than it was back then, you are absolutley HAMMERING people with those taxes.

People are so fucking stupid when it comes to buying into the horse shit about "taxing the rich" it just apalls me ...

People making $200k these days are fairly well off, they are FAR from "rich" ...

If they live like you, then this is 100% true...

[Dogmeat]

If they live like you, then this is 100% true...

Let's see here Zach, I'm the one who busted my ass getting a degree that's an AWFUL lot harder to get than others, I'm the one who is busting my ass doing a job living in a place that NO ONE wants to be in, living out in the middle of fucking nowhere, renting a room in a house, so I can afford other things in life I want to have right now.

I have not purchased my own home, which, would be quite literally all I could afford on the $75k I make, so that I can buy the toys I've wanted to have for the last 15 years of my fucking life.

I probably paid more in taxes last year than you've earned your entire life, and I've had a fucking job and been paying taxes on it since I was 13 fucking years old. In fact, the longest I've gone without a job in the last 13 years of my life was my last year at tech when I said fuck it and took more money out on student loans. Keep in mind, I had my old truck paid off before I ever showed up at Tech....this is probably one of the reasons I was 26 when I graduated instead of 23 or so.

Now, let's compare me to somone making $200,000 a year .... That person esentially has everything I have, aka, a nice vehicle and a few toys of various nature, but then they also own a home. Even despite all the tax incentives of owning this home, it's quite obviously still MUCH MUCH MUCH more expensive to own your own home than it is to do what I am doing right now.

Realy zach, how rich am I? I have a pickup truck, a pair of sleds, and a 4-wheeler, and I am renting a fucking room in a god damned 50 year old farm house to be able to afford that.

Were I making $200,000 a year, I could afford to what I have now, then my own reasonably nice home, and then perhaps be able to put some more money away for my retirement.

I sure as hell am not going to be buying that Corvette I've always wanted to on $200k a year if I'm expecting to own my own home right now....

Don't talk the talk until you've walked the walk

[Psykopath]

Let's see here Zach, I'm the one who busted my ass getting a degree that's an AWFUL lot harder to get than others, I'm the one who is busting my ass doing a job living in a place that NO ONE wants to be in, living out in the middle of fucking nowhere, renting a room in a house, so I can afford other things in life I want to have right now.

I have not purchased my own home, which, would be quite literally all I could afford on the $75k I make, so that I can buy the toys I've wanted to have for the last 15 years of my fucking life.

I probably paid more in taxes last year than you've earned your entire life, and I've had a fucking job and been paying taxes on it since I was 13 fucking years old. In fact, the longest I've gone without a job in the last 13 years of my life was my last year at tech when I said fuck it and took more money out on student loans. Keep in mind, I had my old truck paid off before I ever showed up at Tech....this is probably one of the reasons I was 26 when I graduated instead of 23 or so.

Now, let's compare me to somone making $200,000 a year .... That person esentially has everything I have, aka, a nice vehicle and a few toys of various nature, but then they also own a home. Even despite all the tax incentives of owning this home, it's quite obviously still MUCH MUCH MUCH more expensive to own your own home than it is to do what I am doing right now.

Realy zach, how rich am I? I have a pickup truck, a pair of sleds, and a 4-wheeler, and I am renting a fucking room in a god damned 50 year old farm house to be able to afford that.

Were I making $200,000 a year, I could afford to what I have now, then my own reasonably nice home, and then perhaps be able to put some more money away for my retirement.

I sure as hell am not going to be buying that Corvette I've always wanted to on $200k a year if I'm expecting to own my own home right now....

Don't talk the talk until you've walked the walk

LOL don't get so defensive/butt hurt. You're the one who has posted on here about all the "toys" you've bought and how expensive it is. =P

Just pointed it out in jest, but whatever. I really don't give two shits how much you earn in comparison to me, or how much anyone else earns for that matter.

[Dogmeat]

Just pointed it out in jest, but whatever. I really don't give two shits how much you earn in comparison to me, or how much anyone else earns for that matter.

That is all fine and dandy, but the point I'm trying to make is that those of us who make a decent amount of money generally have to work harder for it, and that generally is true throughout the entire pay scale. That's why it only pays $6.00 an hour to flip burgers. Just because somone's brother's cousin's sister's former room mate made $150,000 selling daipers on eBay doesn't mean that the large percentage of wage earners in the upper brackets were all trust fund babies or had these jobs handed to them or whatever.

There's a good reason people who make that much money make it, it's because they've worked harder for it and have earned it.

This is why it pisses me off when I constantly hear various politicians essentially using the gimmick of "tax the rich", because all they're doing is scraping the bottom of the barrel for votes with it.

[impala454]

This is why it pisses me off when I constantly hear various politicians essentially using the gimmick of "tax the rich", because all they're doing is scraping the bottom of the barrel for votes with it.

and sure seems they've roped in a few votes from techsans doing it.

[Psykopath]

and sure seems they've roped in a few votes from techsans doing it.

...

And you say liberals are elitist!

[impala454]

...

And you say liberals are elitist!

they are

not sure what you're tryin to say w/that statement. you calling me elitist? if so, why?

[THECHICKEN]

Making $200,000 now is _NOT_ the same $200,000 it was in the 90's, and it royally pisses me off people can't fucking figure this out.

It was the same stupid shit when Hillary was claiming "You are going to go back to paying what you were in the 90's" ....

Well, you mindless scumsucking bitch cunt (Obama is one of these too), with the value of the dollar being worth MUCH less than it was back then, you are absolutley HAMMERING people with those taxes.

People are so fucking stupid when it comes to buying into the horse shit about "taxing the rich" it just apalls me ...

People making $200k these days are fairly well off, they are FAR from "rich" ...

200k is still top 3% of country. I don't think its rich personally, but its better off than a lot.

oh and impala do your own research on it, i just said that i heard his plan on the radio. I didn't take notes or anything. He said Wallstreet journal approved of it or something.

[Dogmeat]

...

And you say liberals are elitist!

Well, if thinking people who actually work for their fucking money deserve to keep what they earn makes me an elitist, then golly gee whiz, I'm an elitist

200k is still top 3% of country. I don't think its rich personally, but its better off than a lot.

oh and impala do your own research on it, i just said that i heard his plan on the radio. I didn't take notes or anything. He said Wallstreet journal approved of it or something.

I don't care if it's the top %.05 of the country....

[Mommy]

I just think it is monumentally moronic to tax the rich so heavily when they pour so much money into our economy that it's not even funny. We wonder why our country is having a recession in spending. It's because the rich pay almost half of their income to the government. I seriously think that people that make $200K and up are taxed somewhere between 36% and 40% of their income which is fucking stupid.

[Psykopath]

Well, if thinking people who actually work for their fucking money deserve to keep what they earn makes me an elitist, then golly gee whiz, I'm an elitist
I don't care if it's the top %.05 of the country....

*sigh*
wasn't referring to that aspect of what was being discussed...

gah, why do I keep posting in here! FUCK NPR...bunch of inane BS on both sides.

[Mommy]

lol

[impala454]

oh and impala do your own research on it, i just said that i heard his plan on the radio.

just pointing out that you're not following up, you simply believe what he says.

[THECHICKEN]

just pointing out that you're not following up, you simply believe what he says.

Where did i say i believed what he said? Just because you aren't following up on what he is saying (and just assuming taxes will go up or whatever) doesn't mean i need to follow up to say that i heard differently... (at least i heard something he actually said, vs your assumption of tax hikes). I learned a long time ago to believe none of what i hear and half of what i see. I honestly don't care whether he is lying or not. He said wallstreet journal liked his plan so good for him... still doesn't mean im voting or believing him on something that the congress decides (not him).

[Spectatrix]

How has the Patriot Act or warrantless wiretapping added government control over your life? There's not any choices being taken away. Some privacy perhaps but we've argued the wiretapping crap before so no need to hash that again.

It bypasses the judicial system, giving more direct power to the executive branch.

Socializing parts of people's lives and taking away choices they currently have is what I'd call control.

And I'd agree. I do not support socialized health care, at least for adults.

I can understand your social concerns, even if I don't agree with them. I wasn't aware though that the general Republican plan was to criminalize gay marraige. At the very least that would be political suicide in our increasingly pussified (PC) society.

It was slight hyperbole, but they do want to pass the Federal Marriage Amendment, which would define marriage as the union between a man and a woman. This isn't just a social concern to me, it's also a states rights issue. I think the decision on gay marriage should be left to the individual states.

IMHO social concerns are fine, but people's health, money, the economy, and national defense & foreign policy are a much higher priority in selecting our leaders than allowing some gay dudes to get a piece of paper and a tiny tax break, or letting some chick that got knocked up on accident murder her child because she's too irresponsible to take care of it.

I know I said earlier that I was trying to stay away from speculation, but I highly doubt that a universal health care plan is going to pass anytime soon, unless the democrats gain a significant majority in Congress. It's simply too much of a partisan issue. And, as I've said numerous times, I'm not thrilled with such proposals anyway.

Money: Both candidates are planning on cutting taxes in general. Both are probably lying. As per traditional party lines, Obama emphasizes cuts for the lower & middle class (tax hikes for the top 0.1%), while McCain has tax cuts across the board, but mostly for the wealthy. Nothing new here. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8060900950.html

The Economy: Such a broad topic... not sure what to talk about here. Well, I do think it was cool that Obama called McCain and Clinton out on their dumbass "gas tax holiday" plan. I dunno what either candidate has said about the subprime mortgage meltdown. Anyone want to englighten me?

Foreign Policy: I'm with Obama on this one. I think abandoning diplomacy is foolish, I think nation-building should not be our purpose, and I think getting into yet another war when our military is already stretched thin and we have such a huge budget deficit is suicide. And yes, I'm aware than many of you will disagree with me. It's my personal opinion, so buzz off.

[Spectatrix]

And yes, I know I just wrote an Impala-style quote-by-quote post. SO SUE ME.

(btw, thank you, Impala, for actually maintaining a reasonable line of discourse on these issues... unlike some people...)

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: Jul 30 2008, 02:41 PM

[Mommy]

Christine, why would you support socialized health care (see, she realizes it's two words) for children? I mean, yeah, children shouldn't be denied health care...ever, but at the same time that would lower the quality of care, wouldn't it? They are our future.

[Psykopath]

And yes, I know I just wrote an Impala-style quote-by-quote post. SO SUE ME.

(btw, thank you, Impala, for actually maintaining a reasonable line of discourse on these issues... unlike some people...)

[Mommy]

And would someone please explain to me what would be wrong with a tiered health care system. In other words, mandatory health insurance if you make a certain amount each year. This health insurance allows you to see whatever health provider you chose to see, and the insurance company reimburses what the provider asks. People who make below a certain amount are taxed an extra 2-3% of their wages but receive socialized health care that still is quality but more affordable. People who are unable to work because of health issues receive social security benefits that qualifies them to see socialized health providers, but with the option to upgrade if necessary (and with approval) to a different, more qualified provider.

[impala454]

Where did i say i believed what he said?

you didn't. that's my mistake. but you posted it in response to me asking what obama says he's going to do. I was pointing out that what he says he's going to do is too broad to be taken as some type of "plan". i.e. if you ask me how to build a computer, and I respond with "you buy the parts then put them together".

[impala454]

It bypasses the judicial system, giving more direct power to the executive branch.

I can see that I suppose... I just don't see it as some wide scale thing. Seems like that stuff was a fairly isolated set of cases. Let's put it this way, when I'm on the phone, I don't get the feeling some fed is listening to me.

It was slight hyperbole, but they do want to pass the Federal Marriage Amendment, which would define marriage as the union between a man and a woman. This isn't just a social concern to me, it's also a states rights issue. I think the decision on gay marriage should be left to the individual states.

I personally don't support gay marraige at all, but honestly I don't care what is done at the govt level about it and just don't see it as something important in deciding my vote, that's all. If anything (and I'm all for states rights as well), it would bug me for this to be a states issue, because now there's 50 states worth of politicians wasting money discussing it instead of just the feds.

Money: Both candidates are planning on cutting taxes in general. Both are probably lying. As per traditional party lines, Obama emphasizes cuts for the lower & middle class (tax hikes for the top 0.1%), while McCain has tax cuts across the board, but mostly for the wealthy. Nothing new here. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...8060900950.html

I don't really believe either of them will cut taxes either. I do believe McCain would renew Bush's tax cuts though.

[Spectatrix]

Christine, why would you support socialized health care (see, she realizes it's two words) for children? I mean, yeah, children shouldn't be denied health care...ever, but at the same time that would lower the quality of care, wouldn't it? They are our future.

I admittedly don't have a very coherent idea of what might be best to address this issue. My pseudo-acceptance of socialized health care for children is based simply on the fact that children shouldn't suffer just because their parents are bottom-feeding losers. The downside to having socialized options for children is that it decreases pressure on employers to subsidize insurance for their employees' dependents and, as you say, the socialized care may be lower quality.

[Spectatrix]

I can see that I suppose... I just don't see it as some wide scale thing. Seems like that stuff was a fairly isolated set of cases. Let's put it this way, when I'm on the phone, I don't get the feeling some fed is listening to me.

Fair enough. I'm not paranoid that the government is listening in on me either, but I do think they bypassed an easy-to-deal-with system (FISA court) and I don't think our government should be ignoring the checks and balances that are built into the system.

I personally don't support gay marraige at all, but honestly I don't care what is done at the govt level about it and just don't see it as something important in deciding my vote, that's all. If anything (and I'm all for states rights as well), it would bug me for this to be a states issue, because now there's 50 states worth of politicians wasting money discussing it instead of just the feds.

Haha, quite true that they're wasting money... but I support it as a state's rights issue mainly because marriage has historically fallen under the domain of the states.

I don't really believe either of them will cut taxes either. I do believe McCain would renew Bush's tax cuts though.

Same, though I also believe that Obama will renew them for the lower tax brackets... though maybe not up to $250k.

Wasn't talking about you.

[impala454]

look at this amicable discussion... Christine you got a sister who makes at least $70k?

edit: and... shares the family... ahem... genes?

[pebkac]

Well, if thinking people who actually work for their fucking money deserve to keep what they earn makes me an elitist, then golly gee whiz, I'm an elitist

No, that makes you like every other single person in the United States. Of course the catch is in defining who works for their money.

This post has been edited by pebkac: Jul 30 2008, 11:29 PM

[impala454]

No, that makes you like every other single person in the United States. Of course the catch is in defining who works for their money.

well if one didn't feel the need to label people elitists then there is no catch is there?

[pebkac]

well if one didn't feel the need to label people elitists then there is no catch is there?

That sounds like something an ELITIST would say.