You can teach faith, it just has to be our faith Options

[Hartmann]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/5826378.html

This is retarded... Christian churches aren't allowed to go into a school and preach and "inform" the children about God and if they threatened a hate crime they would get laughed at.

If it really was presentation on culture and ethics then yeah, that's fine, but this is CAIR we're talking about, they always have an agenda.

[impala454]

Oh don't you know, if it's Christians doing that kinda stuff it's "OMG separation of church & state!" but if it's any other religion, "oh we don't want to upset them, oh.... oh.... this is multi-cultural experience for our students!"

[chook]

nothing is perfect.

[Oasis]

Muslims complaining about hate crimes....that's the funniest thing I've EVER read

[jonathan83]

speaking of muslims...i dont think they're all terrorists or anything like that, but i saw something strange this past weekend.

in seoul, i was taking the subway with one of my friends. we were taking the escalator down to the platform (it's a really long escalator that goes deep underground) and at the bottom there's this arab guy holding a small video camera just standing there taping footage of the escalator. we thought it was strange, but quickly forgot about it.

we then get on the subway and go a few stops, where we have to get off and transfer. we have to take another escalator. here's this guy again, at the end of it and video taping it also. then we got on the subway again and find him again, and he's with 3-4 other arab guys.

at this point it kinda made us think what the hell was he doing? i mean, even if it was some white guy, i would've thought it was a bit wacko. but i guess the image of arabs as being terrorists is still somewhat in my head subconsciously. anyway i wasnt even going to voice my concerns until my friend said he was thinking the same thing. also after the london underground bombings, it kinda made me think..maybe a bit too much, i dont know.

anyway, if seoul blows up or something, here's the evidence right here on techsans!

[Aaron]

Okay, first off, I'm an Atheist... so obviously I could give a shit one way or the other.

That being said, I don't see the big huge deal. It should be considered a multi-cultural experience and, frankly, I think we should do a better job of exposing ourselves (insert joke here) to different points of view, belief practices and ways of life.

Friendswood is 90% white, and I would bet money that 95% or more of the students in the room would identify themselves as Christian or were raised in a Christian household. There's nothing multi-cultural about a Methodist viewing a presentation from a Baptist.

Religion is all about geography and the faith of your parents, I don't see the benefit of completely sheltering children from other religions until they get to the point where they're too brainwashed for it to matter.

[impala454]

See I knew someone would point it out as "multi-cultural"


hypocrisy at its finest

[Aaron]

hypocrisy at its finest

How is it hypocrisy? If the idea is to expose young people to cultures and belief practices that they aren't familiar with, what's wrong with a presentation about Islam or Buddhism or whatever?

A presentation centered around Christian beliefs would have simply been a reinforcement of what they are taught at home and at church. Indeed, it would have been more of a mono-cultural presentation than anything else.

[impala454]

You can expose young people to Arabic culture without having an Islamic presentation. Just like you could have an American culture discussion over there without discussing Christianity. Or a Chinese culture discussion without Buddhism.

I say it's hypocrisy (not necessarily what you said) because the second you have anything Christian enter a school, the pundits cry about separation of church and state. Then you have some other religion, be it Islam or Buddhism or anything else, and suddenly it's ok because it's "cultural". That's the hypocrisy. It's called a double-standard. And it seems to be happening all too often nowadays.

I recall having "multi-cultural" days in school, where we'd have a big presentation set up discussing various cultures, arabic, chinese, mexican, french, german, etc. There'd be food from different cultures, pictures of people's homes, talks of their way of life, etc. But I don't in any of those times recall someone stepping forward to teach the lesson that "Allah is God of all people". That's not a multicultural lesson, that's a religious lesson.

[Oasis]

You can expose young people to Arabic culture without having an Islamic presentation. Just like you could have an American culture discussion over there without discussing Christianity. Or a Chinese culture discussion without Buddhism.

I say it's hypocrisy (not necessarily what you said) because the second you have anything Christian enter a school, the pundits cry about separation of church and state. Then you have some other religion, be it Islam or Buddhism or anything else, and suddenly it's ok because it's "cultural". That's the hypocrisy. It's called a double-standard. And it seems to be happening all too often nowadays.

I recall having "multi-cultural" days in school, where we'd have a big presentation set up discussing various cultures, arabic, chinese, mexican, french, german, etc. There'd be food from different cultures, pictures of people's homes, talks of their way of life, etc. But I don't in any of those times recall someone stepping forward to teach the lesson that "Allah is God of all people". That's not a multicultural lesson, that's a religious lesson.

Bingo

[Spectatrix]

There's a fine line between preaching and teaching. That goes for Christians, Muslims, Jews, anyone. I am an atheist as well and I would have little problem with group coming into school and giving my kids a presentation about xyz religion. However, it's such a touchy subject and it's so easy to cross the line between conveying information and proselytizing... that it should probably be avoided in the public schools altogether. I think it would better be handled as an after-school or weekend event so that it isn't mandatory and it isn't taking up normal school time.

I don't have a particular problem with Christianity being included in such presentations, but I think the point that Aaron was trying to get across was that such is less necessary given that most Americans have widespread exposure to Christianity, either from their own family or from the general community.

Talk about the subject all you want, just don't go worshiping or trying to convert kids in public school. And that goes for ANY religion.

[Aaron]

You can expose young people to Arabic culture without having an Islamic presentation. Just like you could have an American culture discussion over there without discussing Christianity. Or a Chinese culture discussion without Buddhism.

I disagree with your premise. If we're talking about exposing K-12 students to broad themes, traditions and customs of other cultures, then it isn't practical to completely divorce the two. The Arab world is predominantly Muslim, just like North America is predominantly Christian.

I say it's hypocrisy (not necessarily what you said) because the second you have anything Christian enter a school, the pundits cry about separation of church and state. Then you have some other religion, be it Islam or Buddhism or anything else, and suddenly it's ok because it's "cultural". That's the hypocrisy. It's called a double-standard. And it seems to be happening all too often nowadays.

The reason it is such a hot-button issue is because, like I mentioned above, the United States is predominantly Christian. So it shouldn't come as any surprise when folks are very sensitive about the issue, it's the whole 'majority imposing its will on the minority' mentality.

I recall having "multi-cultural" days in school, where we'd have a big presentation set up discussing various cultures, arabic, chinese, mexican, french, german, etc. There'd be food from different cultures, pictures of people's homes, talks of their way of life, etc. But I don't in any of those times recall someone stepping forward to teach the lesson that "Allah is God of all people". That's not a multicultural lesson, that's a religious lesson.

Per the article I read, no one proclaimed that "Allah is the God of all people." I believe the quote was couched in a manner that stated that Muslims believe that "Allah is the God of all people." I think Allah is as fictitious as the tooth fairy, but I don't see how someone stating a fact (X believes in Y) is offensive or preaching.

We had something similar when I was in elementary school, but ours (and yours too, maybe?) was student-driven and very shallow.

[impala454]

I don't care if a school has a full in depth discussion of any religion. All I care about in this case is that there's not a double-standard when it comes to Christianity, which in this case, there is.

And as far as elementary school cultural activities being shallow... gimme a break, it's effing elementary school.

[Aaron]

I don't care if a school has a full in depth discussion of any religion. All I care about in this case is that there's not a double-standard when it comes to Christianity, which in this case, there is.

This isn't a case where you have to have equal time. Actually, this reminds me quite a bit of the "why is it okay for black people to say the n-word but white people can't" argument in the respect that you're advocating that it's either okay for everyone or it's not okay for everyone.

And as far as elementary school cultural activities being shallow... gimme a break, it's effing elementary school.

Stuff like that is shallow, it doesn't really delve into culture or anything like that. Ex: "In Brussels they make chocolate. It is the capitol of the European Union. They grow Brussels sprouts there." So, no, you give me teh break.

[impala454]

This isn't a case where you have to have equal time. Actually, this reminds me quite a bit of the "why is it okay for black people to say the n-word but white people can't" argument in the respect that you're advocating that it's either okay for everyone or it's not okay for everyone.

It's not like the n-word at all. It's the Constitution of the United States.

Stuff like that is shallow, it doesn't really delve into culture or anything like that. Ex: "In Brussels they make chocolate. It is the capitol of the European Union. They grow Brussels sprouts there." So, no, you give me teh break.

I agreed with you, it is shallow. It's supposed to be that way in elementary school.

[Aaron]

It's not like the n-word at all. It's the Constitution of the United States.

Obviously, I was talking about the kind of argument... not the topic of the argument.

But good to know you're such an ardent defender of *cue dramatic music* the United States Constitution.

[impala454]

hmmmk... sorry I had to bring a petty thing like LAW into the logic

[Aaron]

hmmmk... sorry I had to bring a petty thing like LAW into the logic

Right, because the people who gave that presentation were promptly arrested afterwards because they broke a law.

Oh, wait, no... a bunch of soccer moms just got pissed because, damnit, they're the only ones who can indoctrinate their children with religion.

[impala454]

Hey if double standards in our schools are ok with you I got no further beef.

[Hartmann]

Oh, wait, no... a bunch of soccer moms just got pissed because, damnit, they're the only ones who can indoctrinate their children with religion.

Um, yeah. Isn't that the argument for not teaching religion in school? Parents should be the ones teaching religion, it isn't the responsibility of the school or groups the school brings in.

We didn't learn religion when I was in elementary and middle school. We learned about geography and culture, but religion was not in the mix.

Hell, I think I have my old textbooks, I'll get them out and see what they say about the Crusades.

[Aaron]

Um, yeah. Isn't that the argument for not teaching religion in school? Parents should be the ones teaching religion, it isn't the responsibility of the school or groups the school brings in.

Um, yeah. I was being sarcastic.

Awesome.

[nickluto]

You can expose young people to Arabic culture without having an Islamic presentation. Just like you could have an American culture discussion over there without discussing Christianity. Or a Chinese culture discussion without Buddhism.

I say it's hypocrisy (not necessarily what you said) because the second you have anything Christian enter a school, the pundits cry about separation of church and state. Then you have some other religion, be it Islam or Buddhism or anything else, and suddenly it's ok because it's "cultural". That's the hypocrisy. It's called a double-standard. And it seems to be happening all too often nowadays.

I recall having "multi-cultural" days in school, where we'd have a big presentation set up discussing various cultures, arabic, chinese, mexican, french, german, etc. There'd be food from different cultures, pictures of people's homes, talks of their way of life, etc. But I don't in any of those times recall someone stepping forward to teach the lesson that "Allah is God of all people". That's not a multicultural lesson, that's a religious lesson.

nicely put

[Aaron]

Was bored at work today. Don't really give a shit.

[The Fanatic]

I am agnostic and I'm against this presentation because there needs to be uniformity in the way separation of church and state is interpreted. Don't allow members of a group that has an obvious slant and agenda to lecture on a religious subject whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. I have no problem with religion being taught in social studies or other courses as long as it is relevant to the subject. Then again I was not at the lecture personally so i don't know to what extent they may have overstepped their "bounds".

[Aaron]

Psh, agnostic. Shit or get off the pot, man!

[Spectatrix]

I am agnostic and I'm against this presentation because there needs to be uniformity in the way separation of church and state is interpreted. Don't allow members of a group that has an obvious slant and agenda to lecture on a religious subject whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc. I have no problem with religion being taught in social studies or other courses as long as it is relevant to the subject. Then again I was not at the lecture personally so i don't know to what extent they may have overstepped their "bounds".

I agree. And I think this is where Impala is coming from. The double standard is BS.

[FORSAKENR320]

teachers have to be certified to teach certain classes, right? teach religion, but have it done by a certified teacher. fuck the nosy parent and zealot approach

[impala454]

one of the philosophy classes i took as an elective was world religion, great class, forget the prof's name. that's how i could see it being taught in schools (if it's taught at all).

[Hartmann]

Um, yeah. I was being sarcastic.

Awesome.

Hard to tell on the interweb.

[The Fanatic]

Psh, agnostic. Shit or get off the pot, man!

Hahaha

Actually though I grow tired of fanatics on both sides of the issue. A higher power, force, god, etc is plausible but maybe the universe is a cruel accidental joke. I believe that if there is a higher power it is impossible to define with religion.

[Spectatrix]

teachers have to be certified to teach certain classes, right? teach religion, but have it done by a certified teacher. fuck the nosy parent and zealot approach

Eh, sort of. I think the requirements differ by school district.

one of the philosophy classes i took as an elective was world religion, great class, forget the prof's name. that's how i could see it being taught in schools (if it's taught at all).

That would be cool and totally acceptable. An acceptable (imo) alternate setup might be to have an extracurricular seminar series with lecturers from different religious/cultural groups.

[Inferia]

Eh, sort of. I think the requirements differ by school district.
That would be cool and totally acceptable. An acceptable (imo) alternate setup might be to have an extracurricular seminar series with lecturers from different religious/cultural groups.

We're still talking about K - 12 here right? What is the protocol about taking an elective based on religion in a K - 12 here? Are there restrictions on that too or can you get away with more stuff since you've elected for this stuff?

[Spectatrix]

We're still talking about K - 12 here right? What is the protocol about taking an elective based on religion in a K - 12 here? Are there restrictions on that too or can you get away with more stuff since you've elected for this stuff?

Yeah, K-12.

Depends on the state/school district, I think. But, for instance, there are some schools in Texas (Midland or Odessa, I think) that have something like Bible history electives. I think as long as they don't cross the line between teaching and preaching, it's all good. This *should* be quite easy given the preponderance of religion-oriented philosophy courses at colleges, but people (parents and teachers both) are dumb sometimes.

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: Jun 10 2008, 12:18 PM

[James]

Newsflash: English classes still teach from the Bible; prayers are still said at school functions - a very fine one was said at the graduation I attended, much better than the one I gave at my own graduation. Whiners can go cry elsewhere, but we won't be hearing any of that down here. Thank you very much.