HPD kills a federal agent after high speed chase? Options

[impala454]

Ok Lance, here ya go man, a big fat juicy one. Surprised you haven't posted it yet
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5741363.html

Mystery continues to envelop a man shot and killed by Houston police Tuesday morning after a high-speed chase that ended near the Galleria.

The victim was identified by friends as Roland Vincent Carnaby, 52, of Houston. But who he really was — or more precisely, what he was — is something police are still trying to piece together.

...

Whatever his real story, Carnaby's life came to an end about 11 a.m. after police forced his vehicle to a stop. He didn't acknowledge the officers who encircled him with guns drawn. And he "refused to put his hands where the officers could see him," said Houston Police Sgt. John Chomiak.

"The driver refused to comply, talk or roll down the window," Chomiak said.

He opened the driver's side door only after one of the officers smashed the passenger-side window, police said.

"He stepped out of his vehicle, turned around and reached under the seat," Chomiak said.

When he did, two officers each fired one time, authorities said. The officers were identified by police officials as HPD Sgt. A.J. Washington and Officer C.A. Foster. Carnaby was later pronounced dead at Ben Taub Hospital.

The incident lasted most of an hour. It began with a routine traffic stop when Carnaby was pulled over for speeding along Texas 288 near Orem. Carnaby raced away after the officers learned he had a license to carry a concealed weapon, police said.

...

Although an initial examination revealed no weapons inside the man's car, that changed once it was taken into custody for a more detailed search.

"We have located three weapons inside the vehicle — two pistols and a shotgun," said HPD spokesman John Cannon. "At least one of them was within reach of the suspect."

There is definitely something fishy here. If nothing else, as to why the guy ran in the first place. I don't really question the police much in what they did, as the video on the news clearly showed him get out, then reach under the seat for something. I'm really curious if it was really a gun or something else. Not sure what the outcome will be, but when a 52 year old white man gets shot by da popos, it's bound to get a second look...

[Oasis]

I don't get it. Dumbass runs from the cops, refuses to cooperate, then gets shot when he reaches under his seat because the police were following protocol

Are you implying guns were planted? I have a concealed handgun license and carry a S&W .357 mag in my truck. A routine police search wouldn't turn it up. Only a comprehensive one that included removing seat covers, gutting subwoofers, etc would it be found

[Testm0nkey]

he sounds just like a nutjob who just wanted to pretend he was a spy. and if he was a retired agent he went suicide by cop, as you would imagine anyone would know not to do what he did when police have their guns drawn on you

[Hartmann]

That's the question his friends want answered. They say Carnaby had no reason to run or disobey police. Platt said he had dined with Carnaby both Saturday and Sunday and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Carnaby was engaged to be married, he said, and led a happy life.

"I can't fathom any reason why he would be running from the police because he is the police," Platt said. "This doesn't make any sense. I can't understand him running or why they opened up on him. This doesn't smell right."

Except that he did run. And any cop worth his salt is going to be edgy on the trigger when you reach under a seat.

[impala454]

I don't get it. Dumbass runs from the cops, refuses to cooperate, then gets shot when he reaches under his seat because the police were following protocol

Are you implying guns were planted? I have a concealed handgun license and carry a S&W .357 mag in my truck. A routine police search wouldn't turn it up. Only a comprehensive one that included removing seat covers, gutting subwoofers, etc would it be found

Oh I'm not saying the police wrongfully shot him. The video we saw on the news clearly showed the guy reaching for something "shiny" under the seat after getting out of the car. I do find it interesting that they searched the vehicle at the scene and didn't find anything, yet later find three guns in the truck. If they shot him because they saw him reach for something "shiny" under the seat but then they couldn't find anything under the seat at the scene, there's definitely something fishy.

And I don't really see what you having a CHL & carrying a revolver has to do with this...

[Hartmann]

The gun could have been in a hidden pouch or something under the seat.

Whether he had a gun under the seat or not, I think that the police did the right thing.

[cmac]

killing someone is never the 'right' thing.
does seem a little strange though.
is there a link to the video somewhere?

[impala454]

killing someone is never the 'right' thing.

oh geezus... semantics dude come on. "correct" thing, "right" thing, "appropriate" thing, whatever the hell you want to say.

[impala454]

video on this link:
http://www.khou.com/topstories/stories/kho...e.afd97c63.html
(dont have time to watch the whole thing right this second)

[cmac]

yeah, none of those either.
so this guy did or didn't work for the cia?
this whole thing is kinda strange. curious to see how it progresses.

[impala454]

yeah, none of those either.

So what should the cops do when someone who's not complying reaches for something unseen?

[cmac]

i don't know.
smoke bomb, tranquilizer dart, slingshot, nerf gun.
we've argued this in the gun thread. killing them isn't exactly the first thing that comes to my mind.
the dude coulda had a cell phone. they're shiny.

This post has been edited by cmac: Apr 30 2008, 11:34 AM

[impala454]

i don't know.
smoke bomb, tranquilizer dart, slingshot, nerf gun.
we've argued this in the gun thread. killing them isn't exactly the first thing that comes to my mind.
the dude coulda had a cell phone. they're shiny.

Yeah I know we talked about it in another thread and your argument sounds just as dumb in this one.

[cmac]

yeah, it really sucks valuing life and all...

[impala454]

The officers are valuing life. their own

[Hartmann]

yeah, it really sucks valuing life and all...

So would you rather it be one person dead or two people (a cop and this guy) dead?

[cmac]

0

[impala454]

Sounds like a typical democrat type answer. All complaints and no solutions.

[cmac]

tranquilizer dart.

a bullet doesn't have to come out of a pistol.

[impala454]

that is not a solution.

[cmac]

and there's the republican type answer.
guess we just meet the stereotypes.

[impala454]

well if you give a dumbass solution that obviously wouldn't work, i'll tell you like it is. if that's a sterotype i welcome it.

[Hartmann]

But that means that a potential criminal should not be allowed to kill someone. How do you propose solving that issue?

You are trying to remove the reality from the situation by suggesting this world is one where people act in a loving manner towards each other. I, on the other hand live in reality, understanding that there are bad people in the world and blowing bubbles in their direction does not make them drop their weapon.

Now, do I think force is always necessary? Absolutely not. But, if someone is putting another person's life in harm's way and force is the only possible action to remove that threat, then so be it. You cannot tell me in all honesty that you believe force is never necessary. That's utopia and we don't live there.

How do you expect crime to be dealt with in high risk areas? Gang territory? I'd love there to be success stories in those places of good people stepping up and doing the right thing, but you know what, that is the exception rather than the rule.

[Psykopath]

Sounds like a typical democrat type answer. All complaints and no solutions.

This is just as stupid of a response as cmac's.



--------

At any rate, cops sometimes must utilize lethal force in order to protect themselves and others.
That's just part of the society we live in.

[cmac]

But that means that a potential criminal should not be allowed to kill someone. How do you propose solving that issue?

of course potential criminals aren't "allowed to kill someone." so what makes it right for civilians to kill potential criminals? maybe the criminals think that civilians are trying to kill them, and he's "protecting himself."
you're right, there will always be criminals that want to kill people. that is reality. but it's also reality that there is absolutely nothing that anyone can ever come up with to solve this problem. killing THEM obviously doesn't work. they still exist. so maybe we should think of something else. find another solution.
i would have liked to have heard this guy's story. why he was running. the cia side of it. his history. his story. that won't happen now.
maybe the tranquilizer thing is a little far fetched, but it's practical.
swat, wearing bullet-proof vest, hiding behind police car door, fires life-ending bullet at criminal VS. swat, wearing bullet-proof vest, hiding behind police car door, fires tranquilizer dart at criminal knocking him on his ass. move in. arrest. the beanbag guns exist. pretty much the same thing.
this guy could be sitting in a jail cell now and cops would have a few more answers than what they're searching for now. it's hard to question dead people.
i can, in all honesty, say i believe that force is never necessary. there are much more practical ways around any situation.
How do I expect crime to be dealt with in high risk areas and gang territory? It's not up to me, but i know that the world is full of people with very creative minds, and there is more than one solution to every problem.

[Testm0nkey]

I'm totally against gun ownership and am all for the US government stripping the right to bear arms away from everyone UNLESS they are active military (only if they're MP's or in a battlefield), police officers, special security, CPS workers - people that potentially need a lethal weapon as part of their occupation.

in a country with a serious crime problem you can't have a police force that dont have the ability to use a gun type lethal force.

just imagine it - if cops in America didn't carry guns there'd be a dozen cop killings a day. these are the people that protect us and put their lives on the line (even if some dont deserve the recognition)


edit: but in my future world where the average person doesnt have easy access to a gun, i would be for English style police forces - average cops dont have guns

[FORSAKENR320]

I'm totally against gun ownership and am all for the US government stripping the right to bear arms away from everyone UNLESS they are active military (only if they're MP's or in a battlefield), police officers, special security, CPS workers - people that potentially need a lethal weapon as part of their occupation.

in a country with a serious crime problem you can't have a police force that dont have the ability to use a gun type lethal force.

just imagine it - if cops in America didn't carry guns there'd be a dozen cop killings a day. these are the people that protect us and put their lives on the line (even if some dont deserve the recognition)

well... then it's a good thing you're a woman and no one takes your opinion seriously......

[Testm0nkey]

youre a low paid shift labor worker from a backwoods town without a college level education - the world doesnt care about your opinion either

[James]

youre a low paid shift labor worker from a backwoods town without a college level education - the world doesnt care about your opinion either

OUCH!

That was nice

[impala454]

of course potential criminals aren't "allowed to kill someone." so what makes it right for civilians to kill potential criminals? maybe the criminals think that civilians are trying to kill them, and he's "protecting himself."
you're right, there will always be criminals that want to kill people. that is reality. but it's also reality that there is absolutely nothing that anyone can ever come up with to solve this problem. killing THEM obviously doesn't work. they still exist. so maybe we should think of something else. find another solution.
i would have liked to have heard this guy's story. why he was running. the cia side of it. his history. his story. that won't happen now.
maybe the tranquilizer thing is a little far fetched, but it's practical.
swat, wearing bullet-proof vest, hiding behind police car door, fires life-ending bullet at criminal VS. swat, wearing bullet-proof vest, hiding behind police car door, fires tranquilizer dart at criminal knocking him on his ass. move in. arrest. the beanbag guns exist. pretty much the same thing.
this guy could be sitting in a jail cell now and cops would have a few more answers than what they're searching for now. it's hard to question dead people.
i can, in all honesty, say i believe that force is never necessary. there are much more practical ways around any situation.
How do I expect crime to be dealt with in high risk areas and gang territory? It's not up to me, but i know that the world is full of people with very creative minds, and there is more than one solution to every problem.

you're absolutely delusional. come back to the real world bud. your armchair QBing of this situation is pathetic. you'd be shot dead while fumbling with your nerf gun. I love how sad it is when people decide something should be done a certain way, but then also release the responsibility of it by saying "well it's not up to me, but I think it should be done this way". How about you become a cop, and go pull over some drug dealers and we'll see just how great your bean bags & tranqs match up agains what the criminals are carrying.

[impala454]

I'm totally against gun ownership and am all for the US government stripping the right to bear arms away from everyone UNLESS they are active military (only if they're MP's or in a battlefield), police officers, special security, CPS workers - people that potentially need a lethal weapon as part of their occupation.

in a country with a serious crime problem you can't have a police force that dont have the ability to use a gun type lethal force.

just imagine it - if cops in America didn't carry guns there'd be a dozen cop killings a day. these are the people that protect us and put their lives on the line (even if some dont deserve the recognition)
edit: but in my future world where the average person doesnt have easy access to a gun, i would be for English style police forces - average cops dont have guns

Of course! If you just make it against the law it won't exist!

[Testm0nkey]

oh itll still exist, i never said it wouldnt. but there would be a big decrease in ownership. add onto that severe punishments for having weapons, 1st time offenses, make it hard if not impossible to buy guns and import them - then the typical gang banger wont have a glock and an AK

im not a police officer or a politician but its worked for virtually the rest of the industrialized world.

[cmac]

you're absolutely delusional. come back to the real world bud. your armchair QBing of this situation is pathetic. you'd be shot dead while fumbling with your nerf gun. I love how sad it is when people decide something should be done a certain way, but then also release the responsibility of it by saying "well it's not up to me, but I think it should be done this way". How about you become a cop, and go pull over some drug dealers and we'll see just how great your bean bags & tranqs match up agains what the criminals are carrying.

yeah, pretty sure that's what we accomplished in the other thread.

and if i'm going to be shot dead fumbling for my beanbag gun, why couldn't i just as easily be shot dead while fumbling for my real gun....

[Seeker]

http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?to...cseen#msg165106

[Billy]

im not a police officer or a politician but its worked for virtually the rest of the industrialized world.

Been to the UK? It is not working there. Gangs of teens beating people to death who are completely defenseless. Everyone, and I mean everyone I talked to really hated the anti gun laws, because they said all that did was allow criminals an easier time of robbing people. Everyone, and again, without exaggeration, everyone I spoke to, wished the British government were sensible like the US. Then I had to explain to them that gun ownership wasn't legal in all states.

If you do not like the gun laws, you are welcome to go live in California or Massachusetts. There is no need to try to change Texas for the worse. Because evidence, real world trial of the nonsense you preach (universal healthcare, gun ban, general socialism), is not working in Europe. So why would we want that here? Answer: we don't.

But like I said, you are not without options, and I welcome you to taking advantage of all the US has to offer. You have the freedom to live in a place that believes the same as you ( or closer at least), so perhaps you would be happier there.

[Testm0nkey]

yes i have been to england. i did not get beaten up by a gang of wayward teens nor do i know anyone who had. their homicide rate is waaaaaay lower than the US even after taking into consideration population differences. guess those beating to death cases arent all that prevalent. but my beliefs in stricter gun laws and taking away citizens guns all together arent just about murder rates. probably the smallest reason for my beliefs as people can interpret the statistics differently

the health system is great in europe as i have a significant number of family members who live there full time who have experiences with it as well as my parents

visiting the Uk and europe for a month or two and all the sudden youre an expert?! hope to god you didnt pick up a fake accent as well

[Hartmann]

yeah, pretty sure that's what we accomplished in the other thread.

and if i'm going to be shot dead fumbling for my beanbag gun, why couldn't i just as easily be shot dead while fumbling for my real gun....

I could care less about fumbling.

You're post earlier said that since "killing the criminals doesn't work" we should stop doing it. I never suggested that we kill all criminals or any at all. I was talking about what happens in real situations in real life. A criminal, with a gun (or knife), decides he is going to rob someone (which is against the law, so apparently those aren't working either). What is a law enforcement officer supposed to do?

Yeah, bean bags and mace are great ideas for certain cases, but in others you need knock-down, take-out, force. If the criminal that I pointed out above was threatening another person's life (holding a woman as a hostage) would you want to continuously try to talk the person out or attempt to talk the person out and then start making a move to save the woman's life?

There are plenty of cases of hostage takers who were given multiple opportunities to surrender, they refuse, and the police force thinks they still can get them out, then those hostage takers kill someone. SWAT has a pretty good ability to use non-lethal force but they also get the benefit of usually being able to plan their moves well in advance, whereas a police officer does not have time to sit around make life-ending/saving decisions, they just have to make them. And you know what, I'd much rather have an officer making that decision for me rather than a criminal.

There are also plenty of documented cases of murder and assault in foreign countries that could have been stopped had the hands of police and citizens not been tied. The one that stands out is the video of the woman being stabbed repeatedly by her husband and people try to do all they can before enough of them gang up and are able to get the guy off of her, by then it was too late.

What about heavily armed bank robbers? Remember the video of the Los Angeles robbers walking down the street with AK-47s (which are not legal to have) shooting up a storm. What would you do in that situation. Those tards were wearing bullet-proof vests, I'm not sure your bean bags would have an affect.

You state that we should not do things that are wrong, but what are the criminals doing? THE WRONG THING. Why not stop taking up for them as though they deserve better than the people they hurt. Since when did being a victim of crime start being the passe thing?

[Hartmann]

the health system is great in europe as i have a significant number of family members who live there full time who have experiences with it as well as my parents

Different thread, different time.

The health system works but I wouldn't call it great. Even in Norway, where the health system is subsidized by oil revenues, are people starting to get a little worried since the energy issues and the reports that show Norwegian wells are emptying faster than originally thought. I wonder what they'll do when they don't have the money to run a national system... Start charging people?

And as an example of crime in Britain, both my dad and I witnessed violence when we were there (on separate occasions). My dad saw a bunch of teenagers rob a small store, beat the manager to a pulp and run off. The police seemed to have them cornered but they got away.

I saw two mid-20s aged punk kids jump a guy in Hackney. They kept screaming at him to give them his phone and were kicking him to comply. He ended up giving his phone and these two ran off in broad daylight with tons of people around. Britain and more specifically London have a large "gang" following, they seem to really like the idea of American gangs but can't seem to pull it off the same. Then again, you'd never see a broad daylight beating of someone in most areas of Houston.

[Testm0nkey]

maybe you saw that because you were in Hackney

[Mommy]

Guess what... anywhere with a population over 10,000 is going to have crime and the such. Europe isn't any better than the U.S.

[chook]

the dart would react too slow, mabye a tazer or rubber bullet? One of my bosses used to be a Sherrif in LA and quit becuase of a shootout. Some cops suck, some are cool. If some person broke into my house, i would shoot his ass without asking a question. I would try to save his life and call 911, but his life is second to my family.

[FORSAKENR320]

youre a low paid shift labor worker from a backwoods town without a college level education - the world doesnt care about your opinion either

all of those things are fixable.... but you'll always be a woman....



maybe

[Hartmann]

maybe you saw that because you were in Hackney

Maybe but you're implying that crime is ok when it's in a crime ridden area.

My dad was on Piccadilly just west of Piccadilly Circus where he saw that, and that isn't the most crime ridden area.

[cmac]

all i'm saying is it seems a little childish.
you're gonna kill me? not if i kill you first.
if i can't play in the sandbox, then no one can.

[Hartmann]

all i'm saying is it seems a little childish.
you're gonna kill me? not if i kill you first.
if i can't play in the sandbox, then no one can.

So you have thoughts on self-preservation. If you had a gun and your life was threatened, would you attempt to save yourself?

What are your thoughts on abortion? Since life is sacred, I would assume you are pro-life?

[cmac]

So you have thoughts on self-preservation. If you had a gun and your life was threatened, would you attempt to save yourself?
What are your thoughts on abortion? Since life is sacred, I would assume you are pro-life?

i wouldn't have a gun. period. if by some reason one was within my reach, i can throw things pretty hard. otherwise, fight to survive by other means. if i die, which would probably happen, then i die. i'm cool with that. i'm not afraid of death. that's no way to live. not sure how i would handle the afterthought of knowing i took another human's life though.

like i said in the other thread, you guys act like your life takes place in a Steven Seagal movie or something. need to be armed and ready for chaos at all times. alpha male. git r dun.

ha, why do conservatives always try to relate abortion with gun control?
i'm pro-choice. life isn't life until it's out of the womb. imo.
an abortion at 8 months, to me, is like removing a kidney.

[impala454]

Alpha male LOL. You call someone an alpha male because they wouldn't curl up into a little ball like a pussy and just die.

And pretty sad that you'll value the life of some fucking crackhead over the life of a child.

[cmac]

like i said, "life isn't life until it's out of the womb. imo."
it's not a "child" until it can be held.
crazy liberal, whatever. just my views.

[impala454]

So, just curious, what is the exact point where it is no longer a lifeless chunk of flesh and becomes a child? Once labor begins? Once the head pokes out? The second the last toe comes out?

[cmac]

it's not a "child" until it can be held.

[impala454]

So it'd be ok with you if the doctor stabbed the child in the head to death before the feet came out?

[Testm0nkey]

no that would be illegal amongst so many other grounds

i always liked "its not a child until it stops going squish if you stomp on it"

"just crawl up on the floor like a pussy and die" you just supported cmac's alpha male "git r dun" statement with that

gun owners are paranoid people. and i think owning a weapon just makes them even more paranoid. and whats one of the most dangerous situations - a scared paranoid gun owner

[Oasis]

I just wanna fucking use this on someone before I sell it

Anyone know of any child molesters or gang bangers that don't deserve to live?

[cmac]

So it'd be ok with you if the doctor stabbed the child in the head to death before the feet came out?

sure, why not

[Hartmann]

like i said, "life isn't life until it's out of the womb. imo."
it's not a "child" until it can be held.
crazy liberal, whatever. just my views.

That's fine, you can have that view.

Your premise is simple, you believe that if you can save one life at the cost of two, it was worth it.

[impala454]

gun owners are paranoid people. and i think owning a weapon just makes them even more paranoid. and whats one of the most dangerous situations - a scared paranoid gun owner

I'd rather be scared, paranoid, and alive than scared, stupid, and dead.

[Psykopath]

no that would be illegal amongst so many other grounds

i always liked "its not a child until it stops going squish if you stomp on it"

"just crawl up on the floor like a pussy and die" you just supported cmac's alpha male "git r dun" statement with that

gun owners are paranoid people. and i think owning a weapon just makes them even more paranoid. and whats one of the most dangerous situations - a scared paranoid gun owner

yet another over generalization. I bought a gun before any crime thing ever happened to me. They're fun to shoot at ranges/open land/old cars on said land. =P

[Testm0nkey]

from the majority of sentiments i get on this forum and in general of gun owners yes paranoia seems high. impala isnt doing anything to dissuade that sentiment either.

laughable


but id probably want to kill someone or myself if i viewed the world you all seem to perceive

[Psykopath]

from the majority of sentiments i get on this forum and in general of gun owners yes paranoia seems high. impala isnt doing anything to dissuade that sentiment either.

laughable
but id probably want to kill someone or myself if i viewed the world you all seem to perceive

A very defeatist statement, indeed.

We all look through lenses to see the world, each so very different. Enjoy the rosy tint you have there.

This post has been edited by Psykopath: May 1 2008, 12:51 PM

[Hartmann]

from the majority of sentiments i get on this forum and in general of gun owners yes paranoia seems high. impala isnt doing anything to dissuade that sentiment either.

laughable
but id probably want to kill someone or myself if i viewed the world you all seem to perceive

This may be the weirdest thing I've ever seen you write.

You say that we perceive the world in a way that makes you want to kill yourself. How do you perceive the world? Obviously it isn't perfect or you would not be going into social work.

I view the world as imperfect and understand that there are bad people in the world who are going to do bad things no matter what the law is. So, if you have a "no guns" law, it isn't going to stop people (criminals) from getting their hands on guns and doing harm. That is a realistic view, not some sick perception.

[cmac]

So, if you have a "no guns" law, it isn't going to stop people (criminals) from getting their hands on guns and doing harm. That is a realistic view, not some sick perception.

i agree with this. with the exception that people aren't just robots. they have histories, pasts and numerous things and problems, most of which i would bet people haven't tried to understand. ciminals deserve second chances. and often third chances. not to be killed when things aren't exactly as they seem. that's, more often than not, the "realism."

[Hartmann]

i agree with this. with the exception that people aren't just robots. they have histories, pasts and numerous things and problems, most of which i would bet people haven't tried to understand. ciminals deserve second chances. and often third chances. not to be killed when things aren't exactly as they seem. that's, more often than not, the "realism."

Yes, but giving them a chance does not mean giving them free reign to hurt or kill someone. If they try to do that, they should be taken into custody and sometimes that requires harm to be done (not always fatal).

[impala454]

from the majority of sentiments i get on this forum and in general of gun owners yes paranoia seems high. impala isnt doing anything to dissuade that sentiment either.

Why in the hell do you think that my owning a gun makes me paranoid? What connects those dots in your brain?

[cmac]

Yes, but giving them a chance does not mean giving them free reign to hurt or kill someone. If they try to do that, they should be taken into custody and sometimes that requires harm to be done (not always fatal).

yeah. i never said we should just let them go free.

[Testm0nkey]

Why in the hell do you think that my owning a gun makes me paranoid? What connects those dots in your brain?

your statement "id rather be alive {and whatever else you said} then a dead stupid pussy {whatever you said}". no one is trying to kill you. and you having a gun is far from the only thing keeping you from getting murdered.

[impala454]

So are people who buy smoke detectors for their home paranoid?

[Testm0nkey]

has a smoke detector ever killed anyone?

[impala454]

You didn't answer the question

[Testm0nkey]

no they arent paranoid. its protection -- THAT HAS NEVER BLOWN A CHILD'S HEAD OFF

[impala454]

It's irrelevant. You've still been caught in an extremely hypocritical statement. Both items must be properly maintained and used in order to provide the protection for which they are intended.

[FORSAKENR320]

i wouldn't have a gun. period. if by some reason one was within my reach, i can throw things pretty hard. otherwise, fight to survive by other means. if i die, which would probably happen, then i die. i'm cool with that. i'm not afraid of death. that's no way to live. not sure how i would handle the afterthought of knowing i took another human's life though.

like i said in the other thread, you guys act like your life takes place in a Steven Seagal movie or something. need to be armed and ready for chaos at all times. alpha male. git r dun.

ha, why do conservatives always try to relate abortion with gun control?
i'm pro-choice. life isn't life until it's out of the womb. imo.
an abortion at 8 months, to me, is like removing a kidney.

if it makes me feel better and you don't mind... fine, let the other guy live. i find your lack of self preservation disturbing

[Seeker]

all you anti-gun limp-wristed defenseless lamoids can come and try to take my gun away from me... i'd like to see you do it hahahaha

when the nwo takes over, food shortages happen, and everyone is rioting and stealing food to feed their family you'll all be begging to use my extra guns

[cmac]

i watch survivorman
i know how to kill deer with my mind.

[impala454]

Bambi would probably kick your ass

[cmac]

lol

[Billy]

yes i have been to england. i did not get beaten up by a gang of wayward teens nor do i know anyone who had. their homicide rate is waaaaaay lower than the US even after taking into consideration population differences. guess those beating to death cases arent all that prevalent. but my beliefs in stricter gun laws and taking away citizens guns all together arent just about murder rates. probably the smallest reason for my beliefs as people can interpret the statistics differently

the health system is great in europe as i have a significant number of family members who live there full time who have experiences with it as well as my parents

visiting the Uk and europe for a month or two and all the sudden youre an expert?! hope to god you didnt pick up a fake accent as well

I was there for three months, and by the things you say, it is clear to me I have more updated information about the population and some of their opinions than you. You hail their programs sitting in the United States while most of the people I interacted with (actually, all of them) in the actual country would disagree with your opinion. Europe attempted to pioneer the programs you support, but these programs have failed the people by making them generally less happy to be there, thus I ask again, why would we want such failed programs used here?

But like I said, you are more than welcome to move to a different state. That is the beauty of living in the US is that you have the freedom to choose. Stop trying to take that freedom away by saying "this is how it should be everywhere (ban guns)", because a lot of people don't want to live that lifestyle.

[THECHICKEN]

So cathryn would rather hope statistics work in her favor and FUCK anyone over who doesn't happen to fit in her perfect world (aka the people who actually do have home invasions, robberies, etc.).

Cmac on the other hand would rather just give a crack addict her child to be murdered (lets add raped) if the situation occurred, because she values the life of the crack addict over that of herself and family.

Wow


Guns kill... thats a good thing. Like a smoke detector (check-mate by impala heh) I would rather have one and be (wrongly) called paranoid, than need one and die. I just don't think hand to hand combat should be a required skill in order to live in cases of attack.

People wanna claim non-violent measures work, but a football player was recently tazer TO NO EFFECT because he had a bullet proof vest on. Bullets are much more effective, and ill hope the ambulance makes it in time to save the guy.... then i'll go through restorative justice and hope the guy recovers from being fucked up.

[BlueBarry]

Guns dont kill people, people kill people. Just remember that phase.

[cmac]

Cmac on the other hand would rather just give a crack addict her child to be murdered (lets add raped) if the situation occurred, because she values the life of the crack addict over that of herself and family.

he...
and no. i value life. period.

[Testm0nkey]

what would you guys say to parents grieving over the loss of their child because he/she was "playing" with a weapon in the home?

and hey just imagine for a second a country in which the average criminal DID NOT have a gun. that is a good thing right? i dont think anyone would disagree with that. so why not work towards something that would be good?

[FORSAKENR320]

what would you guys say to parents grieving over the loss of their child because he/she was "playing" with a weapon in the home?

and hey just imagine for a second a country in which the average criminal DID NOT have a gun. that is a good thing right? i dont think anyone would disagree with that. so why not work towards something that would be good?

imagine a country where people DID NOT smoke. thats a good thing right? and you're just not getting it. or trying not to. instead of worrying about the tools a criminal uses, why don't you focus on getting rid of the criminal?

[Testm0nkey]

like poverty there will always be criminals. shooting them all is not a solution. but yes i do focus on the social issues that decrease crime and criminal behavior i thought you guys were the ones that didnt believe in that

[Oasis]

what would you guys say to parents grieving over the loss of their child because he/she was "playing" with a weapon in the home?

and hey just imagine for a second a country in which the average criminal DID NOT have a gun. that is a good thing right? i dont think anyone would disagree with that. so why not work towards something that would be good?

There are people in this world who get it and people in this world who don't get it.

You don't get it.

[Testm0nkey]

there are people in the world that dont believe in guns and there are those that do. i just happen to be one of those people that dont

[FORSAKENR320]

there are people in the world that dont believe in guns and there are those that do. i just happen to be one of those people that dont

do you believe in equality?

i sure as hell do. as you're said, with or without guns criminals will always exist. so in cathryns world, she's walking down the street. a large, beefy guy grabs her and pulls her into a secluded alley where no one can see her or hear her. she's got 2 choices, fight with her fists, or give up and let him enjoy his rape time.

since the first option is obviously gonna fail, and giving up really isn't an option, she's fucked. literally

then, when the man is done, he can decide at his liesure wether to kill her or not. cathryn is helpless against this man. there is no law or common decency to protect her. you can't trust anyone to defend your life except yourself.

firearms level the playing field and give cathryn a fair chance at her own life. she could own one and take the responsibility that comes with owning one, or she can enjoy being a statistic.

[Testm0nkey]

you are the one that brought up statistics. you are aware the chance of me being randomly raped in a dark alley is practically 0 right?

and simply putting up a fight and screaming for help actually IS what is recommended. i dont need a gun to do that

again only in a paranoid gun owners world are they living their life scared of being a statistic. i dont choose to live my life like that. too much great stuff to experience

[cmac]

seems like gun owners always seem to be extremely angry at something. even more frightening.

[impala454]

like poverty there will always be criminals. shooting them all is not a solution.

You act like the cops do nothing but go around shooting people. The ones that get shot are the ones that do not comply once the cops pull their weapons and repeatedly give them instructions they do not comply with, and then make a move which threatens the officer. There are a lot of steps from commiting the crime -> getting shot by the cops.

[impala454]

seems like gun owners always seem to be extremely angry at something. even more frightening.

Seems like you keep making idiotic statements. Apparently now owning a gun = angry person to you. Thanks for the stereotype bambi.

Then again, doesn't seem like there's much other there that doesn't frighten you.

[Psykopath]

Chill out with the insults in this thread, everyone. Brandon took it over the top, but even the little shit is getting old. Debate like adults, not 10 year olds.

[impala454]

insults tend to follow smugness...

insult the comments though, not the person

[Testm0nkey]

what exactly frightens me? impala made the comment there doesnt seem to be much out there that doesnt frighten me. am wondering where that came from as well as the cops comments. 99% of the time i will side with the police officer in a shooting. if you read this thread youd see i supported the HPD in this. what i dont believe in is personal gun ownership

edit: ah impala was referring to cmac in that one comment

[cmac]

word. i'm frightened of cobras and airplanes. pretty sure that's it.
so i just thought of this. i'm clearly anti-gun. however, i enjoy gun video games, such as first person shooters, etc. does that make me a hypocrite in your opinion?

[Testm0nkey]

are you asking me?

id say no because clearly its not in reality and you are using the game as entertainment. and i am willing to bet you have all your mental facilities therefore realize shooting games is for entertainment purposes and its not negatively influencing your behaviors. ie. going out to purchase a gun for whatever reason is far different than playing a video game that has weapons in it. simply having a gun around you no matter how careful you are has the potential to be lethal. a videogame doesnt

[cmac]

i'm asking anyone

[impala454]

word. i'm frightened of cobras and airplanes. pretty sure that's it.

sure

so i just thought of this. i'm clearly anti-gun. however, i enjoy gun video games, such as first person shooters, etc. does that make me a hypocrite in your opinion?

No.

[FORSAKENR320]

are you asking me?

id say no because clearly its not in reality and you are using the game as entertainment. and i am willing to bet you have all your mental facilities therefore realize shooting games is for entertainment purposes and its not negatively influencing your behaviors. ie. going out to purchase a gun for whatever reason is far different than playing a video game that has weapons in it. simply having a gun around you no matter how careful you are has the potential to be lethal. a videogame doesnt

simply having a knife around me has the potential to be lethal

i could kill someone with a fork to the eyeball.

it doesn't fucking matter what tool you use, if you have the intention to use it on someone, it's just as bad. so, you get rid of guns. what now? people are gonna carry knives.. get rid of knives, people are going to carry cords to strangle each other with. (see the thugala gangs of india, where the term "thug" comes from)

someone is always going to have a weapon. if you decide to stop with them just getting rid of guns, and let the rest of the crime and murders happen with knives and other weapons, you're just a hypocrit that doesn't carry about people being hurt, you're just using it as an excuse because you hate guns

[Mommy]

i wouldn't have a gun. period. if by some reason one was within my reach, i can throw things pretty hard. otherwise, fight to survive by other means. if i die, which would probably happen, then i die. i'm cool with that. i'm not afraid of death. that's no way to live. not sure how i would handle the afterthought of knowing i took another human's life though.

like i said in the other thread, you guys act like your life takes place in a Steven Seagal movie or something. need to be armed and ready for chaos at all times. alpha male. git r dun.

ha, why do conservatives always try to relate abortion with gun control?
i'm pro-choice. life isn't life until it's out of the womb. imo.
an abortion at 8 months, to me, is like removing a kidney.

You, sir, are a moron. I have been biting my tongue a lot lately when it comes to insulting people on here, but god dammit. I can't hold it in here. A baby 8 months along in pregnancy can be held. In fact, most babies that are born a month early are healthy enough to go home within a week or two. They might be somewhat jaundice and a little underweight. Aborting a "fetus" that is 8 months old is murder. That baby can survive outside of the womb. I'm against abortion all together, but I won't say anything about women that chose to get it done early on in pregnancy. It's their wrong doing, and I know they will have to answer to God for that choice. I feel it is my place, though, to say something about abortions after the 5th month. Babies born in the 6th month of pregnancy, while very unhealthy, are living human beings that can survive outside a mother's womb

You are chosing the life of a criminal over that of an innocent baby when you say you would rather die at the hands of a criminal than kill him, but full-term abortions are ok. God, I swear. I will never understand that liberal viewpoint. Capital punishment is wrong, but abortion is ok? STUPID. I'm against both, but at least the conservative viewpoint makes more sense: taking the life of a murderer but preserving the life of the innocent.


I would be willing to bet everything I own in this world that if you were within arm's reach of a gun, and you were about to be attacked by a serial killer, you would take his life. No doubt in my mind. You make yourself out to be a strong human being, but no one knows how they will react under such circumstances (even if they have faced similar circumstances before and reacted differently)

[Testm0nkey]

exactly not everyone knows how they will react in that situation so you cant say all would shoot someone to death. im willing to bet, as ive heard of it before, that people/cops freeze up when they have to shoot. i know i would have an incredibly hard time shooting a gun, killing a person and i do not know how id face myself after taking someones life

[impala454]

simply having a knife around me has the potential to be lethal

i could kill someone with a fork to the eyeball.

it doesn't fucking matter what tool you use, if you have the intention to use it on someone, it's just as bad. so, you get rid of guns. what now? people are gonna carry knives.. get rid of knives, people are going to carry cords to strangle each other with. (see the thugala gangs of india, where the term "thug" comes from)

someone is always going to have a weapon. if you decide to stop with them just getting rid of guns, and let the rest of the crime and murders happen with knives and other weapons, you're just a hypocrit that doesn't carry about people being hurt, you're just using it as an excuse because you hate guns

Even more, we already have a perfect example of a world where only the police have guns... PRISON.

Yeah, there's no violent crimes there....