New York goes insane, Felony to sell M-rated games to minors Options

[Spectatrix]

http://gamepolitics.com/2007/05/30/another...rs-into-felons/
http://inventorspot.com/felonytosellgames
http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A08696&sh=t

Long story short: On May 30th, New York politicians proposed a bill that would make it a felony for retailers to sell games including "depraved violence and indecent images" (i.e. most M-rated games, possibly some T-rated ones too?) to folks under age 17. It would be a class E felony, which means 1-4 years in prison.

On May 31st, it passed in the New York Assembly 130 to 10. I'm not sure by what margin the corresponding legislation in the state senate passed by earlier in the month. The bill has passed and all that remains is for it to be signed into law by New York's governor.

Is it just me or is this MAJOR overkill? I'll admit that I disagree with putting legal age restrictions on the sale of games and movies in general, but I can see why people would support such legislation. However, anything more than a misdemeanor for such a "crime" is asinine.

[zetec]

what a bunch of fucking retards. Ohio and a few other states have all had similar if not exactly the same (albeit with only misdemeanor punishments) bills that actually got passed into laws just so they could be ruled unconstitutional.

New york needs to get over their fucking selves. People like them even less than Texas.

And I lump Jersey in there too.

[jwttu]

wow these are video games not alcohol

[chook]

lets take some minors to strip clubs in jersey!

[schwab]

overkill, but probably the only way that people will actually check ids on selling games

if you are going to pass this law, then you might as well do the same for movies

[impala454]

yeah i'd be interested to know what these dipshits have in place for people selling a kid a rated R movie ticket.

[Mommy]

I always thought felonies were at the federal level so it had to be federally passed.... yay for never paying attention in government. haha

anyways, I think its a good idea because kids dont need to be playing shit like that.

[schwab]

I always thought felonies were at the federal level so it had to be federally passed.... yay for never paying attention in government. haha

anyways, I think its a good idea because kids dont need to be playing shit like that.

laws wont really stop them, theyll get them if they want them

[Mommy]

oh I know, but at least it encourages retailers to abide by the law. I think the issue is parents not monitoring their kids, and this will make that even more apparent. I dont see why everyone is bitching so much about it

[JRockTTU]

oh I know, but at least it encourages retailers to abide by the law. I think the issue is parents not monitoring their kids, and this will make that even more apparent. I dont see why everyone is bitching so much about it

Uh, you cashiered at Best Buy for a while. What if some 16 year old that looked old as shit bought a game from you that was rated M (before they had the little pop up thing reminding you to check age). That would mean instead of getting a fine, you would be subject to spending 1-4 years in prison. That's excessive if I've ever heard it. And yes, the issue is the parents not monitoring the kids, which is why I think it's ludicrous that the salesperson goes to jail but the kid and parents aren't affected at all.

[cupcake]

bravo, new york...bravo...

like NYC doesn't have bigger fuckin fish to fry...

no need worrying about all the international criminal trade and shit that affects the global market...there are kids buying RE4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

in related news, why isn't there a full on porn video game? like one where you could control all the fuckin going on instead of just speed and off screen shots like on god of war?

if graphic enough, that shit would make millions.

[schwab]

bravo, new york...bravo...

like NYC doesn't have bigger fuckin fish to fry...

no need worrying about all the international criminal trade and shit that affects the global market...there are kids buying RE4!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

in related news, why isn't there a full on porn video game? like one where you could control all the fuckin going on instead of just speed and off screen shots like on god of war?

if graphic enough, that shit would make millions.

too many people who have no relation to the game or will ever see it would bitch and cry until its edited down to a tellytuby game

[THECHICKEN]

Well im glad we are taking the responsibility off the parents and putting it on 16 year old clerks at walmart. That should solve the problem. Felony is way too much... should be a fine at best (against the store).

[cupcake]

too many people who have no relation to the game or will ever see it would bitch and cry until its edited down to a tellytuby game

but how come you can have websites that anyone can view (i.e., no ID needed) that show that shit for real?

the game would at least be available only to those who have ID.

[FORSAKENR320]

Uh, you cashiered at Best Buy for a while. What if some 16 year old that looked old as shit bought a game from you that was rated M (before they had the little pop up thing reminding you to check age). That would mean instead of getting a fine, you would be subject to spending 1-4 years in prison. That's excessive if I've ever heard it. And yes, the issue is the parents not monitoring the kids, which is why I think it's ludicrous that the salesperson goes to jail but the kid and parents aren't affected at all.

fits under TABC rules to me. you need an i.d. for a purchase, do your job right and get the damn id. stop being a lazy fuck. in a bar, someone presents you with an id that looks legit, then later turns out to be fake, the bartender is not at fault. same conept. cashier, just do the fucking job right and you won't get in trouble

[FORSAKENR320]

but how come you can have websites that anyone can view (i.e., no ID needed) that show that shit for real?

the game would at least be available only to those who have ID.

old people don't know how to use the internet. as soon as they do, all your porn is going to be editted down to a telly tubby game.

[cupcake]

fits under TABC rules to me. you need an i.d. for a purchase, do your job right and get the damn id. stop being a lazy fuck. in a bar, someone presents you with an id that looks legit, then later turns out to be fake, the bartender is not at fault. same conept. cashier, just do the fucking job right and you won't get in trouble

huh? when I bartended, it didn't matter if the doorman checked the ID or not, it was invariably the bartender's responsibility.

did something change recently?

old people don't know how to use the internet. as soon as they do, all your porn is going to be editted down to a telly tubby game.

old people...

[FORSAKENR320]

huh? when I bartended, it didn't matter if the doorman checked the ID or not, it was invariably the bartender's responsibility.

did something change recently?
old people...

oops, forgot to clarify::

i also worked as a bartender. it was my responsibility to check id's. but if one turned out fake and i couldn't tell, i was not at fault.

[cupcake]

I see...yeah I was confused by that post.

I still say if there is live porn, why can't there be a porn game? there's porn in print, in e-internets, on video, via phone...all the game is is another medium?

the logic baffles me. it's like they think of movies for everyone regardless of age, but interactive consoles are just for kids...which is retarded.

[Spectatrix]

anyways, I think its a good idea because kids dont need to be playing shit like that.

You should not be the one making that judgement call. Parents should be.

oh I know, but at least it encourages retailers to abide by the law. I think the issue is parents not monitoring their kids, and this will make that even more apparent. I dont see why everyone is bitching so much about it

The issue is indeed that parents don't monitor their kids, so fine, whatever, we have to make up a bunch of BS laws. But here, I'm bitching because they're making this a FELONY. A NY class E felony, which makes it equivalent (by NY law) to:

• Attempted Vehicular Manslaughter in the 2nd Degree
• Attempted Assault in the 2nd Degree
• Aggravated Assault Upon a Person Less Than Eleven Years Old
• Attempted Vehicular Assault in the 1st Degree
• Vehicular Assault in the 2nd Degree
• Attempted Stalking in the 1st Degree
• Stalking in the 2nd Degree
• Menacing in the 1st Degree
• Rape in the 3rd Degree

etc. etc... http://www.emsc.nysed.gov/deputy/Documents...ffenselist.html

Do you REALLY think that selling a violent video game to a minor is equivalent to crimes such as these and should be punishable by a MINIMUM of 1 year of jail time?

[James]

I see the trend they're aiming for now that you list all those Class E's.

IF you assume that all these school shootings are the result of violent video games, then I could justify selling the games as sort of making you an accomplice to the crime.

Is it a stretch? Yes.

As for your porn video game, I think some exist. I remember I had a game called something like Sex Island or some such on my distro server back in the day. I never actually burned it though. Too many other things to burn and they didn't have me keep it in cycle long enough to get to it.

[Mommy]

Uh, you cashiered at Best Buy for a while. What if some 16 year old that looked old as shit bought a game from you that was rated M (before they had the little pop up thing reminding you to check age). That would mean instead of getting a fine, you would be subject to spending 1-4 years in prison. That's excessive if I've ever heard it. And yes, the issue is the parents not monitoring the kids, which is why I think it's ludicrous that the salesperson goes to jail but the kid and parents aren't affected at all.

Yeah, and I also worked at CompUSA which sells games and another store in El Paso that rents and sells video games, movies, porn, and sports memorbilia. I always checked id. No 16 year old is going to look older than 26...card everyone that looks lower 20's and younger. I still get carded at the movie theatre and Im 22. It doesnt bother me.

[Jim]

I think it's total bullshit. Grasping at straws to try and stop video games from harming America's youth. Because we all know that playing doom taught us how to be serial killers.

[Spectatrix]

I still say if there is live porn, why can't there be a porn game? there's porn in print, in e-internets, on video, via phone...all the game is is another medium?

the logic baffles me. it's like they think of movies for everyone regardless of age, but interactive consoles are just for kids...which is retarded.

There are hundreds of porn games out there, it's just that the vast majority of them are Japanese (hentai games). Oddly, my favorite of those I've played is this silly little top-down shooter called Sentimental Shooting, where items of clothing are the "ground targets".

*waits for Brandon to call her a kinky harlot again...*

[Mommy]

I think it's total bullshit. Grasping at straws to try and stop video games from harming America's youth. Because we all know that playing doom taught us how to be serial killers.

according to a lot of well-documented child psychology theories, some children are more easily influenced than others....especially kids with high functioning autism. Ever talk to a kid with high functioning autism who has just watched a movie or tv show? They will be mimicing everything they just heard and saw. This is just an example, but still I think its a great idea.

[impala454]

did anyone bother to check the existing laws?

this would seem to be pretty consistent with laws already in place:
http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN0235.21_235.21.html
New York Penal Law Section 234.21:

§ 235.21 Disseminating indecent material to minors in the second degree.
A person is guilty of disseminating indecent material to minors in the
second degree when:
1. With knowledge of its character and content, he sells or loans to
a minor for monetary consideration:
(a) Any picture, photograph, drawing, sculpture, motion picture film,
or similar visual representation or image of a person or portion of the
human body which depicts nudity, sexual conduct or sado-masochistic
abuse and which is harmful to minors; or
(b) Any book, pamphlet, magazine, printed matter however reproduced,
or sound recording which contains any matter enumerated in paragraph (a)
hereof, or explicit and detailed verbal descriptions or narrative
accounts of sexual excitement, sexual conduct or sado-masochistic abuse
and which, taken as a whole, is harmful to minors; or
2. Knowing the character and content of a motion picture, show or
other presentation which, in whole or in part, depicts nudity, sexual
conduct or sado-masochistic abuse, and which is harmful to minors, he:
(a) Exhibits such motion picture, show or other presentation to a
minor for a monetary consideration; or
(b) Sells to a minor an admission ticket or pass to premises whereon
there is exhibited or to be exhibited such motion picture, show or other
presentation; or
© Admits a minor for a monetary consideration to premises whereon
there is exhibited or to be exhibited such motion picture show or other
presentation; or
3. Knowing the character and content of the communication which, in
whole or in part, depicts actual or simulated nudity, sexual conduct or
sado-masochistic abuse, and which is harmful to minors, he intentionally
uses any computer communication system allowing the input, output,
examination or transfer, of computer data or computer programs from one
computer to another, to initiate or engage in such communication with a
person who is a minor.
Disseminating indecent material to minors in the second degree is a
class E felony.

all they're doing is extending this law to video games, which makes sense. I was unable to find anything that would confirm what people are saying about 1-4 year sentencing though. section 235.24 actually releases the employer from responsibility should their employee commit the crime without their knowledge.

[Mommy]

ZING!

[impala454]

here's the actual sentencing from New York Penal Law Section 70.00
http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN070.00_70.00.html

(e) For a class E felony, the term shall be fixed by the court, and
shall not exceed four years.

...

Alternative definite sentence for class D and E felonies. When a
person, other than a second or persistent felony offender, is sentenced
for a class D or class E felony, and the court, having regard to the
nature and circumstances of the crime and to the history and character
of the defendant, is of the opinion that a sentence of imprisonment is
necessary but that it would be unduly harsh to impose an indeterminate
or determinate sentence, the court may impose a definite sentence of
imprisonment and fix a term of one year or less.

so, I'd doubt that some lil cashier at best buy selling an M rated game would receive much prison time. at least, not as much as the owner of some pr0n shop selling debbie does dallas to a five year old for the 3rd time.

[cupcake]

There are hundreds of porn games out there, it's just that the vast majority of them are Japanese (hentai games). Oddly, my favorite of those I've played is this silly little top-down shooter called Sentimental Shooting, where items of clothing are the "ground targets".

*waits for Brandon to call her a kinky harlot again...*

really? I didn't know that. then again I don't do much porn...

unlike you perverts!

[Jim]

according to a lot of well-documented child psychology theories, some children are more easily influenced than others....especially kids with high functioning autism. Ever talk to a kid with high functioning autism who has just watched a movie or tv show? They will be mimicing everything they just heard and saw. This is just an example, but still I think its a great idea.

And it's the GOVERNMENT'S job to make sure that the PARENT'S autistic child is kept away from anything that may influence them? Right.

[James]

I found these games for you in a quick search:
http://www.sexstation7.com/ - FPS
http://www.zoomtang.com/ - uhh...not quite sure
http://sociolotron.amerabyte.com/website2/index.htm - RPG

[Mommy]

And it's the GOVERNMENT'S job to make sure that the PARENT'S autistic child is kept away from anything that may influence them? Right.

no. I was just commenting on what you said about influence... children can be influenced by what they see and hear on video games, movies, music, television. Sadly, New York has a high population of low-income residents.... with low-income comes weaker family values. Things like this have to be made law to keep kids away from this stuff. Kids dont need to see that stuff. period. So I dont see what the big deal is....still

[impala454]

heh i remember that anime looking flash game someone on here posted a long time ago. where you had to go to work, make money, so you could buy gifts, go to the gym, buy an impressive car/house, etc to get the girl.

[FORSAKENR320]

*waits for Brandon to call her a kinky harlot again...*

too busy fapping to the mental image you created of yourself

[JRockTTU]

I see...yeah I was confused by that post.

I still say if there is live porn, why can't there be a porn game? there's porn in print, in e-internets, on video, via phone...all the game is is another medium?

the logic baffles me. it's like they think of movies for everyone regardless of age, but interactive consoles are just for kids...which is retarded.

I think it's mostly because of production costs. Video games cost A LOT of money to produce on the newer systems (if you're talking about anything up to and newer than PS2/XBOX) and then if you want to make it good or "realistic" you're going to have to pay for some top notch production value. Then, since it will get a M or (more likely) an Adults Only rating it wouldn't be carried by any top retailers (wal mart, best buy, circuit city). I just don't think it would be a profitable venture for these companies that are making a ton off of their current media.

Plus, you have to hold the controller with TWO hands.

[Spectatrix]

did anyone bother to check the existing laws?

this would seem to be pretty consistent with laws already in place:
http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN0235.21_235.21.html
New York Penal Law Section 234.21:

all they're doing is extending this law to video games, which makes sense. I was unable to find anything that would confirm what people are saying about 1-4 year sentencing though. section 235.24 actually releases the employer from responsibility should their employee commit the crime without their knowledge.

here's the actual sentencing from New York Penal Law Section 70.00
http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN070.00_70.00.html

so, I'd doubt that some lil cashier at best buy selling an M rated game would receive much prison time. at least, not as much as the owner of some pr0n shop selling debbie does dallas to a five year old for the 3rd time.

I got the 1-4 years thing from this site: http://www.joystiq.com/2007/05/30/new-york...me-legislation/. I hadn't looked at the penal code in enough detail to find the alternate sentencing.

The difference between this and current legislation regarding the dissemination of indecent materials is that it is illegal for minors to view pornographic material. It is NOT illegal for a minor to play a violent or sexually explicit (non-pornographic) video game or watch an R-rated movie. Thus, distributing porn or other "indecent material" to a minor is facilitating a crime, whereas selling a M-rated game or R-rated movie ticket to a minor is not.

[Spectatrix]

Oh and most (all?) laws of this type in other states have been overturned as unconstitutional:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6140739.html
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6147061.html
http://gamepolitics.com/2006/11/29/breakin...-federal-judge/

I could find more, but you get the picture. I read somewhere that laws like this (criminalizing, in some form or fashion, sale of video games to minors) in something like 11 states had been overturned.

[impala454]

I got the 1-4 years thing from this site: http://www.joystiq.com/2007/05/30/new-york...me-legislation/. I hadn't looked at the penal code in enough detail to find the alternate sentencing.

The difference between this and current legislation regarding the dissemination of indecent materials is that it is illegal for minors to view pornographic material. It is NOT illegal for a minor to play a violent or sexually explicit (non-pornographic) video game or watch an R-rated movie. Thus, distributing porn or other "indecent material" to a minor is facilitating a crime, whereas selling a M-rated game or R-rated movie ticket to a minor is not.

you're mixing up your arguments here. this law doesn't say it's illegal for a minor to play a rated M video game, it says it's illegal to sell it to minors. if you'll look at the post I made with the similiar law which is already in place (in post #26), it clearly states in part 2( that selling a minor a ticket to a film which contains the described material is in fact a class E felony.

[Spectatrix]

you're mixing up your arguments here. this law doesn't say it's illegal for a minor to play a rated M video game, it says it's illegal to sell it to minors. if you'll look at the post I made with the similiar law which is already in place (in post #26), it clearly states in part 2( that selling a minor a ticket to a film which contains the described material is in fact a class E felony.

No, I'm not mixing up my arguments, though perhaps I wasn't clear enough. The law you quoted is with regards to the distribution of pornographic materials, specifically "nudity, sexual conduct or sado-masochistic abuse and which is harmful to minors". Here's what I'm saying:

#1 It's illegal for minors to view porn -> Felony to distribute porn (magazines, films, tickets to NC-17 films, etc)
#2 It's NOT illegal for minors to view rated R movies -> It's NOT a felony to sell tickets for rated-R movies
#3 It's NOT illegal for minors to play rated M and AO games -> It shouldn't be a felony to sell such games to minors

I'm saying that #3 has more in common with #2 than it does with #1. This law isn't with regards to pornographic content (at least not exclusively). It's regarding violent content, specifically "rape, dismemberment, physical torture, mutilation or evisceration of a human being".

If they were talking specifically about pornographic games, then I'd say that making it a felony to sell such games to minors is consistent with their current legislation. I still wouldn't support it, but at least it's consistent.

[impala454]

it doesn't say pornographic movies, it says movies with any nudity whatsoever. however, the video game industry does not specifically categorize games with nudity (or sexual content for that matter), they rate them M. so this is the only way for a law to address those specific games. it's honestly the game industry's own fault for not developing a good enough rating system. they obviously don't want a rating system that tells parents there's nudity in their games, because then wouldn't sells as many!

do I agree with the law? no not really, but it is most definitely consistent with the existing law, in the best way it can be.

either way, I highly doubt the best buy cashier selling Gears of War to a 15 year old kid is going to get four years in prison.

[Spectatrix]

it doesn't say pornographic movies, it says movies with any nudity whatsoever.

Read again. It says "nudity, sexual conduct or sado-masochistic abuse and which is harmful to minors." I'm no lawyer, but I believe that second part is to distinguish between seeing someone's naked butt and full frontal nudity or explicit sex.

But again, we're not lawyers, so us arguing about the finer points of New York's penal code is probably an exercise in futility.

Ignoring precedent for the moment, since it's unclear, I think this (and similar crimes) should be a misdemeanor. However, I agree that it's unlikely that a clerk charged with this crime would be sentenced to much (if any) jail time. Even so, it looks really bad for someone to have a felony on their criminal record.

[impala454]

I love how you slyly throw in your agument and then say it's futile to argue

instead of assuming what the terms mean, all we have to do is go back to the code:
http://law.onecle.com/new-york/penal/PEN0235.20_235.20.html

§ 235.20 Disseminating indecent material to minors; definitions of
terms.
The following definitions are applicable to sections 235.21, 235.22,
235.23 and 235.24 of this article:
1. "Minor" means any person less than seventeen years old.
2. "Nudity" means the showing of the human male or female genitals,
pubic area or buttocks with less than a full opaque covering, or the
showing of the female breast with less than a fully opaque covering of
any portion thereof below the top of the nipple, or the depiction of
covered male genitals in a discernably turgid state.
3. "Sexual conduct" means acts of masturbation, homosexuality, sexual
intercourse, or physical contact with a person's clothed or unclothed
genitals, pubic area, buttocks or, if such person be a female, breast.
4. "Sexual excitement" means the condition of human male or female
genitals when in a state of sexual stimulation or arousal.
5. "Sado-masochistic abuse" means flagellation or torture by or upon
a person clad in undergarments, a mask or bizarre costume, or the
condition of being fettered, bound or otherwise physically restrained on
the part of one so clothed.
6. "Harmful to minors" means that quality of any description or
representation, in whatever form, of nudity, sexual conduct, sexual
excitement, or sado-masochistic abuse, when it:
(a) Considered as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest in sex of
minors; and
(b.) Is patently offensive to prevailing standards in the adult
community as a whole with respect to what is suitable material for
minors; and
(c.) Considered as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic,
political and scientific value for minors.
7. The term "access software" means software (including client or
server software) or enabling tools that do not create or provide the
content of the communication but that allow a user to do any one or more
of the following:
(a) filter, screen, allow or disallow content;
(b.) pick, choose, analyze or digest content; or
(c.) transmit, receive, display, forward, cache, search, subset,
organize, reorganize or translate content.

so... what shouldn't be much surprise, we see that the law ends up being.... drumroll.... vague and open to interpretation! (although "nudity" is described very explicitly... (LOL "penis in a 'turgid' state")). also, if you look at #6, all of those terms are anded together. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find many video games (especially at stores where minors are allowed to shop) which will fit this bill.

now go to the new part of the bill:

1. A PERSON IS GUILTY OF DISSEMINATING VIOLENT AND INDECENT VIDEO
GAMES TO MINORS WHEN, WITH KNOWLEDGE OF ITS CHARACTER AND CONTENT, HE OR
SHE SELLS OR LOANS TO A MINOR FOR MONETARY CONSIDERATION ANY VIDEO GAME
WHICH INCLUDES DEPRAVED VIOLENCE AND INDECENT IMAGES THAT ARE ACCESSIBLE
TO A USER.

note the anded part, then the defintion of those two terms. for a person to be guilty of breaking this law, the game must have both of B and C here:

(B.) "DEPRAVED VIOLENCE" MEANS ANY PHOTOGRAPHIC, PHOTO-REALISTIC OR
SIMILAR VISUAL REPRESENTATION OR IMAGE DEPICTING THE RAPE, DISMEMBER-
MENT, PHYSICAL TORTURE, MUTILATION OR EVISCERATION OF A HUMAN BEING.
(C.) "INDECENT IMAGE" MEANS ANY PHOTOGRAPHIC, PHOTO-REALISTIC OR SIMI-
LAR VISUAL REPRESENTATION OR IMAGE OF A PERSON OR PORTION OF THE HUMAN
BODY WHICH DEPICTS NUDITY, SEXUAL CONDUCT OR SADO-MASOCHISTIC ABUSE AND
WHICH IS HARMFUL TO MINORS.

and even if all of these things get a checkmark, we still have the sentencing we talked about earlier, where on a first offense, the judge may opt to give a less than one year sentence (which we decided saves our best buy employee).

again I'm not defending the law. it's just that when people get all melodramatic about some new law, I think it's important to learn about it myself rather than take what the criers say as the honest to God truth. some of the blogs and sites i've seen talking about this act like they could never sell rated M games again.

[James]

So wearing a thong is considered nudity? Weird.

[impala454]

only if it shows genitals or buttocks

[Spectatrix]

So... depiction of someone wearing low-riding jeans and a thong would be nudity?

Man, I'm glad I never had any aspirations to be a lawyer.

[James]

Man, I did. Just too lazy to do it

[Billy]

In the event this hasn't already been said:

Religion has trained more killers than any video game will. It should also be a felony for a minor to enter a religous institution.

[impala454]

lol.. yeah that's what I learned in sunday school.

[Spectatrix]

In the event this hasn't already been said:

Religion has trained more killers than any video game will. It should also be a felony for a minor to enter a religous institution.

...

I'm an atheist, but goddamn Billy, you're fucking nuts sometimes.

[JRockTTU]

In the event this hasn't already been said:

Religion has trained more killers than any video game will. It should also be a felony for a minor to enter a religous institution.

Did Jesus sodomize you or something? Your opinion on everything nowadays seems to go back to "Christianity is bad."

[Mommy]

In the event this hasn't already been said:

Religion has trained more killers than any video game will. It should also be a felony for a minor to enter a religous institution.

most ignorant statement I have ever read on this site.... good job

[FORSAKENR320]

most ignorant statement I have ever read on this site.... good job

no, i agree with him on this... more people have been killed in the name of god than in most wars


man, i'd love to be able to find statistics on that.

[Mommy]

I disagree. People fight wars for greedy reasons...land, adultry (troy), etc. Just because the soldiers pray to god to give them a victory doesnt mean that it was fought for that reason. Religion has been the EXCUSE for several wars, but it is hardly the main reason

[JRockTTU]

LETZ BAN MINERZ FRUM USING OILE BECOUSE GORGE BOOSH WENT TO IRAK FOR OILZ, LOLOLOL!

[Billy]

...

I'm an atheist, but goddamn Billy, you're fucking nuts sometimes.

So muslims aren't training suicide bombers?

most ignorant statement I have ever read on this site.... good job

most ignorant statement I have ever read on this site.... good job


Just a general statement: Sometimes you people are major idiots.

[Psykopath]

maybe...maaaaaaaaaaaaybe.....

[Testm0nkey]

wars stemming out of religious differences definitely ranks up there as one of the highest. i can understand maybe the highest because people have been struggling with religious beliefs longer than we've been using oil or had nuclear weapons. so death toll due to religion pretty high.
but always you have people that want more land, resources, power. thatd be the first or second reason for wars id think. even during the crusades having all that slave labor etc would have been pretty nice.

but yeah religion in and of itself hasnt killed a shit ton of people.

[Spectatrix]

So muslims aren't training suicide bombers?

Middle Easterners are training suicide bombers. They may claim to be Muslim, but the work they do in the name of Allah is a gross bastardization of Islam.

Those people cannot legitimately call themselves Muslim any more than people who bomb abortion clinics can call themselves Christian.

[Psykopath]

Middle Easterners are training suicide bombers. They may claim to be Muslim, but the work they do in the name of Allah is a gross bastardization of Islam.

Those people cannot legitimately call themselves Muslim any more than people who bomb abortion clinics can call themselves Christian.

...or, well...I WISH this was obvious information to others in the world. =/






HI

[Spectatrix]

HI

FOR NOW

[Psykopath]

HI

FOR NOW

DUN DUN DUUUUUNNNNN


c/o Alex

[Billy]

Middle Easterners are training suicide bombers. They may claim to be Muslim, but the work they do in the name of Allah is a gross bastardization of Islam.

Those people cannot legitimately call themselves Muslim any more than people who bomb abortion clinics can call themselves Christian.

These are all products of religion. Burning people in the Salem witch trials is a product of religion. Arresting and torturing scientists because they discovered the world revolves around the sun is a product of religion. Legally murdering children because they had premarital sex is a product of religion.

Religion teaches ignorance. In this country, at this point in time, we are realitively religous opression free. But if we do not end these silly and harmful beliefs, in the event we ever fall to fear and ignorance again, the world will repeat these mistakes.

It is possible to be religious and not harmful, as an individual. It is not, as a group.

[Psykopath]

These are all products of religion. Burning people in the Salem witch trials is a product of religion. Arresting and torturing scientists because they discovered the world revolves around the sun is a product of religion. Legally murdering children because they had premarital sex is a product of religion.

Religion teaches ignorance. In this country, at this point in time, we are realitively religous opression free. But if we do not end these silly and harmful beliefs, in the event we ever fall to fear and ignorance again, the world will repeat these mistakes.

It is possible to be religious and not harmful, as an individual. It is not, as a group.

SCIENCE, BE DAMNED!!!

[pebkac]

These are all products of religion. Burning people in the Salem witch trials is a product of religion. Arresting and torturing scientists because they discovered the world revolves around the sun is a product of religion. Legally murdering children because they had premarital sex is a product of religion.

Religion teaches ignorance. In this country, at this point in time, we are realitively religous opression free. But if we do not end these silly and harmful beliefs, in the event we ever fall to fear and ignorance again, the world will repeat these mistakes.

It is possible to be religious and not harmful, as an individual. It is not, as a group.

Religion is just like any other ideology. It's not harmful in and of itself, but people can apply it in a manner that can make it a very dangerous thing.

[THECHICKEN]

Stalin killed millions, hitler killed millions, mongolians/chinese/japanese all killed TONS of people without any religion at all. Considering the centuries of war between china and japan would help account for many deaths NOT based on religion. Millions have also been killed for ethnic cleansing (which i would argue might be MORE than religion).

Hell just look at every american war (or wars by ANY country that happened AFTER this continent was found even).

Napolean, Korean wars, WWI, WWII

Hell even in afganistan, where russians were defeated, it can't be considered "in the name of religion" since it was just a battle for land and muslims were pushing them out.


So im sorry but fighting for POWER is the main killer in my opinion and NOT religion. (even though YES religion has been claimed for some wars in our history).

[JRockTTU]

SCIENCE, BE DAMNED!!!

I thought these two episodes were fucking brilliant.

"But their answer to the great question is different than ours!"

[Billy]

Stalin killed millions, hitler killed millions, mongolians/chinese/japanese all killed TONS of people without any religion at all. Considering the centuries of war between china and japan would help account for many deaths NOT based on religion. Millions have also been killed for ethnic cleansing (which i would argue might be MORE than religion).

Hell just look at every american war (or wars by ANY country that happened AFTER this continent was found even).

Napolean, Korean wars, WWI, WWII

Hell even in afganistan, where russians were defeated, it can't be considered "in the name of religion" since it was just a battle for land and muslims were pushing them out.
So im sorry but fighting for POWER is the main killer in my opinion and NOT religion. (even though YES religion has been claimed for some wars in our history).

I will agree. Wars fought over politics has killed more than religion. But murders due from religion have killed more than video games. If we are going to ban video games for minors on the basis that it trains killers, then we need to also ban religion.

[Testm0nkey]

so the holocaust had nothing to do with jews? yes ethnic cleansing is sometimes more than religious but what designated them as jews? being yewish

[JRockTTU]

I will agree. Wars fought over politics has killed more than religion. But murders due from religion have killed more than video games. If we are going to ban video games for minors on the basis that it trains killers, then we need to also ban religion.

Religion has been around since the beginning of man. Video games have been round for 50 years. Maybe this is why your statement seems totally ignorant?

[THECHICKEN]

I will agree. Wars fought over politics has killed more than religion. But murders due from religion have killed more than video games. If we are going to ban video games for minors on the basis that it trains killers, then we need to also ban religion.

Oh ok, yeah... lol i can agree with that

[Billy]

Religion has been around since the beginning of man. Video games have been round for 50 years. Maybe this is why your statement seems totally ignorant?

I am having a hard time understanding why this is even relevant? Unless your point is that I have a much bigger history to attack religion on.

Then fine. Let's look at the past 50 years then. Murders of homosexuals. Mass murders of Kurds. Turkish murders of christians. Why even go on? If you truley believe more people have been murdered over video games in the past 50 years than over differences of religions, please go kill yourself. You don't deserve your humanity.

And actually, don't come back to this thread until your IQ is over 40. Spare yourself the embarrassment. And I've decided to rename you Jessica.

*BUT* if that's not what you're saying, then I rescind this statement.

[THECHICKEN]

so the holocaust had nothing to do with jews? yes ethnic cleansing is sometimes more than religious but what designated them as jews? being yewish

Jewish isn't just a religion. People were killled for being ETHNICALLY jewish, not religiously. And since it was them being killed by people with NO religious meaning behind the killing i wouldn't call it killing BECAUSE of religion.... more the hatred of it.

[Testm0nkey]

so hatred of a religion and killing because of that isnt killing because of religion?

why are jewish people ethnically jewish? because they are jews

[JRockTTU]

I am having a hard time understanding why this is even relevant? Unless your point is that I have a much bigger history to attack religion on.

Then fine. Let's look at the past 50 years then. Murders of homosexuals. Mass murders of Kurds. Turkish murders of christians. Why even go on? If you truley believe more people have been murdered over video games in the past 50 years than over differences of religions, please go kill yourself. You don't deserve your humanity.

And actually, don't come back to this thread until your IQ is over 40. Spare yourself the embarrassment. And I've decided to rename you Jessica.

*BUT* if that's not what you're saying, then I rescind this statement.

I don't even think that video games are a contribution to murders more than anything else people experience every day. Do you read my posts or just see what you want to see? I think you have an irrational hatred for religion and you bring it up every opportunity. People do kill for religion, but many also kill for land, power, and wealth. By your logic we should also ban minors from wearing Air Jordans because people kill for them too.

[Junsui]

If you truley believe more people have been murdered over video games in the past 50 years than over differences of religions, please go kill yourself. You don't deserve your humanity.

And actually, don't come back to this thread until your IQ is over 40. Spare yourself the embarrassment. And I've decided to rename you Jessica.

I don't remember you being this mean before, but maybe marriage changes people. Which reminds me, didn't you get married in a church? I do see a cross in some of those pictures. If you hate religion so much, why dare step foot in church? In fact, why even get married?

[Billy]

I don't even think that video games are a contribution to murders more than anything else people experience every day. Do you read my posts or just see what you want to see? I think you have an irrational hatred for religion and you bring it up every opportunity. People do kill for religion, but many also kill for land, power, and wealth. By your logic we should also ban minors from wearing Air Jordans because people kill for them too.

Yeah except Air Jordan doesn't instill a violent groupthink hatred towards nonconformists and others who prefer to discover the truth about life on their own.

[THECHICKEN]

so hatred of a religion and killing because of that isnt killing because of religion?

why are jewish people ethnically jewish? because they are jews

You realize its an ethnicity right? And killing someone because you think that RACE (disregarding religion) is evil, doesn't have anything to do with religion.

They aren't being killed over their religion, they are being killed because their race is seen as evil by hitler.

[Billy]

I don't remember you being this mean before, but maybe marriage changes people. Which reminds me, didn't you get married in a church? I do see a cross in some of those pictures. If you hate religion so much, why dare step foot in church? In fact, why even get married?

And yet I had to pretend to believe in their stupidity just so I could live a normal life. Not so irrational after all.

[Junsui]

And yet I had to pretend to believe in their stupidity just so I could live a normal life. Not so irrational after all.

That doesn't make any sense. You don't HAVE to get married in a church. Lot's of people aren't married in churches or by priests. They live normal lives.

[Billy]

That doesn't make any sense. You don't HAVE to get married in a church. Lot's of people aren't married in churches or by priests. They live normal lives.

It does make sense but I'm not going to explain because it doesn't matter.

[Junsui]

It does make sense but I'm not going to explain. You will never understand, and for now, that's ok.

[GOB]

That doesn't make any sense. You don't HAVE to get married in a church. Lot's of people aren't married in churches or by priests. They live normal lives.

yeah, this is the funniest part of his constant anti-religion comments. great way to start off a marriage, lying to the family and doing something (something gigantically important and incredibly memorable in beginning the rest of your life with somebody) just because you "had to". can't wait to see your story on dateline in about 15 years.

[Testm0nkey]

saying the holocaust had nothing to do with religion is ridiculous to me. why do you think they desecrated temples, torahs? one of the first steps they took was to prevent jews from their religion

i know its considered an ethnicity AS WELL my fathers side is jewish. but again its also tied to religion.

[chook]

This thread is rated M by the Dogmeat Masturbatory Picture association.


Needs more skeet skeet to keep it up

[Billy]

yeah, this is the funniest part of his constant anti-religion comments. great way to start off a marriage, lying to the family and doing something (something gigantically important and incredibly memorable in beginning the rest of your life with somebody) just because you "had to". can't wait to see your story on dateline in about 15 years.

Don't hold your breath.

And btw, ...charlie, your inferiority bores me. Get a life and stop trying to make forum allies to make yourself feel powerful. Very pathetic.

[GOB]

i don't even know what that means.

you shit on religion every chance you get on here, and then i see the pictures on facebook of a religious wedding ceremony. i wish i could say that your hypocrisy bores me, but it's actually pretty intriguing.

[chook]

These are all products of religion. Burning people in the Salem witch trials is a product of religion. Arresting and torturing scientists because they discovered the world revolves around the sun is a product of religion. Legally murdering children because they had premarital sex is a product of religion.

Religion teaches ignorance. In this country, at this point in time, we are realitively religous opression free. But if we do not end these silly and harmful beliefs, in the event we ever fall to fear and ignorance again, the world will repeat these mistakes.

It is possible to be religious and not harmful, as an individual. It is not, as a group.

Its all about controling power. Religion was the easiest medium for those then.