Haditha, Your thoughts Options

[Hartmann]

Just wondering what everyone thinks about this Haditha fiasco...

I agree those who are responsible should be punished but I also agree with a quote I heard today:

"Those trained to kill should not be entrusted to keep the peace"

[Psykopath]

IF THEY ARE FOUND GUILTY/LIABLE:


Punish any and ALL involved to the fullest extent of the law.

And to go along with that quote: Yeah, too bad they WERE entrusted to keep the peace. They should have done their jobs (which was security detail at the time, I assume?), not go apeshit psycho.

They are traitors to those that wore the uniform before them. They have tarnished the face of America with their pathetic rage.

This post has been edited by Psykopath: Jun 2 2006, 06:00 PM

[Hartmann]

I definitely agree they should be punished, and the people who helped cover it up should be punished just as much.

However, the Marine Corps was never meant to be a policing force, there are MPs for that. From what I have been reading and hearing, the military police force in Iraq is struggling to keep up with their job. There are reports of Air Force personnel being used to hold objectives and guard security checkpoints. These are not MPs, just regular old Air Force mechanics, etc.

[celebritygooner]

However, the Marine Corps was never meant to be a policing force, there are MPs for that. From what I have been reading and hearing, the military police force in Iraq is struggling to keep up with their job. There are reports of Air Force personnel being used to hold objectives and guard security checkpoints. These are not MPs, just regular old Air Force mechanics, etc.

This is a totally fucked up incident, but it's getting more play in Western media than Iraqi. There's a 'new video' circulating of the incident http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5039420.stm compliments of a Sunni insurgent group ... funny that they chose not to release it until the story broke anyway. I wonder if its authentic ...
There are tons of blue suiters filling traditionally green billets (I've volunteered for a doozy, I find out soon...) in Iraq and Afghanistan, but there are no office pogues taken straight off the flightline and put on regular patrols, not without some serious spinup beforehand. Doing that would be like conscripting an Army Ranger to fix a C-130 or hiring a sniper to drive a sub. Yeah, you could do it, but it would just get people killed.

[Hartmann]

This is a totally fucked up incident, but it's getting more play in Western media than Iraqi. There's a 'new video' circulating of the incident http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5039420.stm compliments of a Sunni insurgent group ... funny that they chose not to release it until the story broke anyway. I wonder if its authentic ...
There are tons of blue suiters filling traditionally green billets (I've volunteered for a doozy, I find out soon...) in Iraq and Afghanistan, but there are no office pogues taken straight off the flightline and put on regular patrols, not without some serious spinup beforehand. Doing that would be like conscripting an Army Ranger to fix a C-130 or hiring a sniper to drive a sub. Yeah, you could do it, but it would just get people killed.

I believe that is a video of a seperate incident taking place in a different city (Ishaqi).

[pebkac]

Dumb question time:

What's haditha?

[Testm0nkey]

marines killing civilians in iraq in what looks like a revenge type story

[woody]

i think it's fucked up

i also think the media is givin it too much air time & making it seem like it's the norm in iraq.

punish those involved and those who lied about it. if the officer wrote up a report and that officer lied about it, they he/she should be punished. if that officers CO didn't know about the incident (truley didn't know) and just trusted the report the officer wrote, that's about where it should stop.

[pebkac]

i think it's fucked up

i also think the media is givin it too much air time & making it seem like it's the norm in iraq.

Innocent civilians being murdered in Iraq? You're right. Definately not a big deal.

[Guest_CANNONBALL_*]

I knew you yahoos would be talking about this. I served in 3/1 and think of the battalion as my adoptive parents since it raised me from 18 to 22. Many of my buddies are still in the BLT...albeit in India co, not Kilo (the company under investigation).

things to keep in mind:

1. this is still an investigation...therefore the 'innocent until proven guilty' thing still applies. some of you (psyko) and the liberal media have already condemned them. if you care for liberties so much, at least grant them their day in court. otherwise, you're a fucking hypocrite.

2. if you're a pilot, this is collateral damage. if you're a grunt, it's considered murder.

3. there is absolutely no excuse for executing any noncombatant...especially women and children, if that's really what happened...there's no fucking excuse. taking the gloves off and stretching the boundaries of ROE is one thing; but killing children in cold blood will not "win" this war.

4. "innocent" is a relative term in iraq (or somalia, or vietnam, or...). if a civilian knows of a trap/IED/ambush, are they still innocent? most people in that town knew where the IEDs were...yet said nothing to the patrolling marines. you tend think about that when you're buddies' flesh is on your skin.

5. it's easy for me to say that I would never do something like this sitting here in the capacity that I am...but put me on the streets, patrolling for a few months, exhausted, hot, sad, scared, parched/hungry, homesick, angry....and I'd like to "think" I would take the non-reactionary, moral high ground...but I can't truly say. it's easy to pass judgement from here.

6. what bothers me about this...especially if they are found guilty in a mil court, is that every grunt is going to be hesitant about reacting to a threat. and we had a saying...the moment of hesitation is the moment of death.

7. this whole thing stinks...from the marines and their position that they were put in, to the families and victims of this deal. it's just sad.
____________________

BUT before you go condemning the battalion and its vets based on the actions of a few, know what you're dealing with...it's going to take a hell of a lot more than this to stain the lineage of 3/1.

here is what globalsecurity.org had:

The "Thundering Third" Third Battalion, First Marines, was activated on March 1, 1941 at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and subsequently assigned to the 1st Marine Division. The 3rd Battalion relocated during April, 1941 to Parris Island, SC. It deactivated 18 June 1941 and reactivated 16 February 1942 at New River, NC. The 3rd Battalion deployed during June - July 1942 to Wellington, New Zealand. Deployed to the Pacific Theater, it participated in the campaigns for Guadalcanal, New Britain, Eastern New Guinea, Peleliu, and Okinawa. After World War II, Marines of 3/1 participated in the occupation of Northern China. The Battalion was deactivated on April 15, 1946 at Tientsin, China.

With the outbreak of the Korean Conflict in June 1950, there was a need for the "Thundering Third" to reactivate. This was accomplished in August 1950 at Camp Pendleton, California. The Battalion deployed to Kobe, Japan during September 1950 and from there was sent to Korea where it participated in the amphibious landing at Inchon with further operations near Seoul, the Chosin Reservoir, and along the Western Front. After two years of negotiations, an armistice was signed and the fighting in Korea ended June 17, 1953. Although the Marines were relieved of further combat responsibilities, the Battalion remained in Korea with 1st Marine Division to participate in the defense of the Korean demilitarized zone.

In April 1955, the Battalion returned to Camp Pendleton. Marines of 3/1 were part of the contingency force called out during the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962. The Battalion returned home to Camp Pendleton in November 1962 and remained stateside until September 1965 when in deployed to to Camp Schwab, Okinawa.

Third Battalion, First Marines deployed during January 1966 to the Republic of Vietnam. The 3rd Battalion participated in the war in Vietnam, January, 1966 – May 1971, operating from: Chu Lai Da Nang; Hoa Vang; Ca Lu Combat Base; Cua Viet; Go Noi and the DMZ. It participated in action until May 1971 when it returned once again to Camp Pendleton.

The 3rd Battalion was designated as Battalion Landing Team 3/1, and deployed to Okinawa for training exercises at various periods during the early 1980’s. During the past several years, the Battalion has participated in numerous training exercises to include deployments to the mountains, deserts, and throughout the Pacific basin. Third Battalion, First Marines deployed to Southwest Asia in December 1990 as part of Regimental Landing Team 5. The Battalion took part in Operations Desert Shield and Desert Storm, going ashore by helicopter and landing craft at Ra Al Mishab, Kuwait in support of the 2nd Marine Division.

(I guess this website forgot about our deployment to LA for the riots)

The Battalion deployed as the ground combat element for the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations Capable) and went ashore in Mogadishu, Somalia to aid in the UNOSOM withdrawal from the country during Operation UNITED SHIELD.

Honors bestowed upon Third Battalion, First Marines include nine awards of the Presidential Unit Citation, two Navy Unit Commendations, two Meritorious Unit Citations, two awards of the American Defense Service Streamer, seven Asiatic/ Pacific Campaign streamers, the World War II Victory Streamer, eleven awards of the Korean Service Streamer, the Marine Corps Expeditionary Streamer, the Armed Forces Expeditionary Streamer, thirteen awards of the Vietnam Cross of Gallantry with Palm, and the Vietnam Meritorious Unit Citation Civil Action Streamer.

The battalion known as the Thundering Third came down hard on enemy safehavens around Fallujah in their to-date largest operation alongside Iraqi forces in late August 2004. 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, alongside Iraqi Specialized Special Forces, conducted Operation Clean Sweep Aug. 23-24 in areas east of Fallujah. The operation was designed to hinder enemy movement to and from the city and eliminate any possible safe havens in the vicinity. "We're basically sweeping rural open areas because we're suspecting terrorists are transporting and selling weapons, shooting mortars and attacking our firm bases," explained Sgt. Edgar O. Payan, a platoon guide with Company K. "Terrorists are moving through areas like crop fields as they come and go out of Fallujah, so we're hoping we nab some suspects and find their weapons," added Payan, a 25-year-old from Pomona, Calif. The 48-hour operation kicked off in the early hours of Aug. 23. By the end of the first day, Marines had arrested two suspects for stowing munitions in their homes. Clean Sweep not only called for Marines to search homes for weapons, but to walk the land around the target areas, looking for anything out of the ordinary. The Marines were especially on the lookout for materials used to create improvised explosive devices.

[pebkac]

1. this is still an investigation...therefore the 'innocent until proven guilty' thing still applies. some of you (psyko) and the liberal media have already condemned them. if you care for liberties so much, at least grant them their day in court. otherwise, you're a fucking hypocrite.

Ok, I'll grant you that. However this:

4. "innocent" is a relative term in iraq (or somalia, or vietnam, or...). if a civilian knows of a trap/IED/ambush, are they still innocent? most people in that town knew where the IEDs were...yet said nothing to the patrolling marines. you tend think about that when you're buddies' flesh is on your skin.

5. it's easy for me to say that I would never do something like this sitting here in the capacity that I am...but put me on the streets, patrolling for a few months, exhausted, hot, sad, scared, parched/hungry, homesick, angry....and I'd like to "think" I would take the non-reactionary, moral high ground...but I can't truly say. it's easy to pass judgement from here.

6. what bothers me about this...especially if they are found guilty in a mil court, is that every grunt is going to be hesitant about reacting to a threat. and we had a saying...the moment of hesitation is the moment of death.

is all contradicted by this:

3. there is absolutely no excuse for executing any noncombatant...especially women and children, if that's really what happened...there's no fucking excuse. taking the gloves off and stretching the boundaries of ROE is one thing; but killing children in cold blood will not "win" this war.

[Guest_CANNONBALL_*]

I don't see it that way my man...just pointing out things to consider when looking at this. #3 being what I feel as I sit here all fat and happy with an advantageous/safe position...and what I would preach to my guys.

4, 5, and 6 being the anxiety of previous experience and influence.

but it (war) is catch-22 and contradictory in nature...

[Hartmann]

5. it's easy for me to say that I would never do something like this sitting here in the capacity that I am...but put me on the streets, patrolling for a few months, exhausted, hot, sad, scared, parched/hungry, homesick, angry....and I'd like to "think" I would take the non-reactionary, moral high ground...but I can't truly say. it's easy to pass judgement from here.

6. what bothers me about this...especially if they are found guilty in a mil court, is that every grunt is going to be hesitant about reacting to a threat. and we had a saying...the moment of hesitation is the moment of death.

I think that's the point here... It's not "shoot first and ask questions later", it's "Shoot first or die" and by human nature no one wants to die.

The publicity that this is getting Iraq befuddles me. It's a huge deal for these people to be killed by Marines (not proven yet) but it's an everyday occurrence for Iraqis to be killed by roadside bombs and they don't blink an eye. They don't say anything condemning the killings (at least anything that makes it to the news). These people should be more than happy to give up these people who blow up cars in markets, but they aren't.

[Psykopath]

Should have put "if they are found guilty" in my above post.


Didn't mean to get under your skin there, Jon. OBVIOUSLY I fully believe in due process of law.

This post has been edited by Psykopath: Jun 2 2006, 06:00 PM

[chook]

I don't see it that way my man...just pointing out things to consider when looking at this. #3 being what I feel as I sit here all fat and happy with an advantageous/safe position...and what I would preach to my guys.

4, 5, and 6 being the anxiety of previous experience and influence.

but it (war) is catch-22 and contradictory in nature...

I'll give it to you. When my brother was in he shot women and children and he is messed up because of it. Its not fighting a regular army, but if they tell you the road is safe and they lead you into a trap, I could see revenge and anger getting in there really quickly.

EDIT: PS Welcome back!

[Jyan]

No one ever stays gone around here, dangit.

[FORSAKENR320]

my opinion.


if you are ballsy enough to take hostile actions towards military units, you are a combatant and can be shot.


doesn't matter if you're a 6 yr old with an AK47 or an old lady with a rock.... throw it or aim that gun... brain gib time

[Hartmann]

Reflections on Haditha

An interesting read.

[Guest_CANNONBALL_*]

good article. of course I am biased to 3/1...but it really is a top-notch unit.

[impala454]

The irony of this kinda crap is the american liberal people care more about Iraqi women & children than the Iraqis do. And hell if the insurgents are using them as human shields, it's the insurgents that are killing them not our troops.

[Billy]

The media will not tell you how the Marines of the 3/1 retook the Haditha Triad region during Operation Rivergate in the fall of 2005 with minimal civilian casualties. The operation was planned in such a meticulous manner and with the intention to safeguard the residents of the city of Haditha that no civilian, Marine or Iraqi casualties were taken. The media won't tell you how the Marines worked for days on end to ensure a safe environment for the Iraqi people to exercise their right to vote in the December 15 Parliamentary elections. You won't hear about how a young Marine, upon positively identifying a vehicle that was used to attack Marines and Iraqi civilians alike, chased the car, on foot, through the streets of Haqlaniyah, and held his fire while the car escaped as he feared injuring civilians. You won't hear about how,after Election Day, insurgents mortared the polling center in Barwana, and killed five children and wounded several others. The Marines of the 3/1 rushed the children to Al Asad Airbase for medical treatment, and saved the life of one Iraqi child.

I think those who are responsible for purposely misleading the American public about a very serious situation need to be arrested for treason.

[GOB]

I think those who are responsible for purposely misleading the American public about a very serious situation need to be arrested for treason.

i think that's a very serious judgement call on a situation that absofuckinglutely nobody, with the exception of those marines and iraqis, has any idea what really happened.

[pysex]

The irony of this kinda crap is the american liberal people care more about Iraqi women & children than the Iraqis do.

word

[Seussninja]

IF YOU ARE BROWN YOU ARE NOT INNOCENT TIA

[woody]

I think those who are responsible for purposely misleading the American public about a very serious situation need to be arrested for treason.

does that include the media?

[Billy]

does that include the media?

Precisely. If the objective of the "terrorists" (aka enemy) is to fool the American public and other nations into seeing the American military as the bad guy, the media is only aiding their cause. All those hard working military guys need are to have their hands tied even more by the politics.

I believe in freedom of the press. And I know what gets viewers. This kind of news. But I really think there should be limits to unobjectivity. Maybe not on everything, like tabloids. But when regular news likes to turn into the tabloids, but the topic is war, those who need everyone's support start to lose it, and only because their actions were twisted so some company could get a rise out of people. Do we want another vietnam welcome home?

[chook]

Precisely. If the objective of the "terrorists" (aka enemy) is to fool the American public and other nations into seeing the American military as the bad guy, the media is only aiding their cause. All those hard working military guys need are to have their hands tied even more by the politics.

I believe in freedom of the press. And I know what gets viewers. This kind of news. But I really think there should be limits to unobjectivity. Maybe not on everything, like tabloids. But when regular news likes to turn into the tabloids, but the topic is war, those who need everyone's support start to lose it, and only because their actions were twisted so some company could get a rise out of people. Do we want another vietnam welcome home?

I'd say more slander than treason

[Hartmann]

I'd say more slander than treason

If their slander leads to the execution of those Marines then treason comes in, till then, slander is probably fitting.

[chook]

If their slander leads to the execution of those Marines then treason comes in, till then, slander is probably fitting.

It depents who is reporting on this. If it is a US citizen, they treason my apply, but international news writers do not have loyalty ties to the US. On a personal note I think the whole ordeal stinks and believe the news is made by "open minded" people.

These are the same open minded people who goto protests but do not vote, stress the empty slogan "support our troops, bring them back home" while calling out the "autrocities" of our troops.

[impala454]

yeah the whole "I support the troops but not what they're doing" is the biggest crock o shit ever.

[chook]

yeah the whole "I support the troops but not what they're doing" is the biggest crock o shit ever.

I personally do not like the whole situation. I think that the president and those who send the troops should be investigated. The troops are stuck in the shit and they need our support.

[Hartmann]

On a personal note I think the whole ordeal stinks and believe the news is made by "open minded" people.

I disagree. I think that yes, some newspeople are open-minded but people like Matt Lauer make news reporters look like close-minded arrogant pricks.

[Guest_CANNONBALL_*]

These are the same open minded people who goto protests but do not vote, stress the empty slogan "support our troops, bring them back home" while calling out the "autrocities" of our troops.

yeah that is a major mind blower.

in the military if someone below you fucks up, you are held accountable. period. hell I've been because one of my guys got a DUI.

the level of how high "accountability" goes is directly proportional to the severity of the deed.

in the case of haditha...I'd say that is about as severe as it gets. but who is held accountable? the troops themselves and that is all.

so what if a couple officers were relieved? they sure as shit aren't in solitary and shackles.

it seems that this accountablity thing only goes so high...and that if it's REALLY serious, the leaders disappear.

nice.

[Guest_CANNONBALL_*]

I personally do not like the whole situation. I think that the president and those who send the troops should be investigated. The troops are stuck in the shit and they need our support.

agreed. hold them accountable for their shitty intel and motivations for this war. not the guys who get sent into a fucked up situation.

[chook]

I disagree. I think that yes, some newspeople are open-minded but people like Matt Lauer make news reporters look like close-minded arrogant pricks.

I do not know too much about him. I know he is on MSNBC, but noone watches that.

[schwab]

different one than haditha but still along the same lines

3 U.S. soldiers charged with killing of Iraqis

Monday, June 19, 2006 Posted: 2001 GMT (0401 HKT)

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BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Three members of the 101st Airborne Division have been charged in connection with the deaths of three detainees during an operation in Salaheddin province, Iraq, the U.S. military announced Monday.

A military news release said the charges in the case include murder, attempted murder, conspiracy, communicating a threat, and obstructing justice.

The release said the unit commander ordered an investigation on May 9, the day the alleged murders occurred in the south of Salaheddin province, and the Army's Criminal Investigative Division is continuing the probe.

The soldiers charged in the case are in pretrial confinement, the release said, while it is determined if enough evidence exists to proceed with courts-martial.

The U.S. military also is investigating whether up to eight Marines from Kilo company of the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, killed 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha and engaged in a cover-up after one of their own was killed in a roadside bombing. Three Marines have been relieved of their duties.

None of the Marines has been charged in that incident, alleged to have occurred on November 19.

In another investigation, the exhumed body of an Iraqi man allegedly murdered by U.S. Marines last April was being examined at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Washington, where investigators were looking for evidence about his shooting death in Hamdaniya on April 26.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06...rged/index.html

[Seeker]

i don't give a shit that iraqis in haditha got murdered
i don't give a shit that americans got murdered

if you don't wanna die don't be a war zone

[pysex]

you know what....fuck em all

when insurgents start disguising themselves as friendlies and lead our guys into traps that's when you start carpet bombing their homes....


i don't blame these soldiers for doing this. i'd do the same damn thing if i pulled my buddy out of a hole with his face cut off by a sand nigger's machete...

[Guest_CANNONBALL_*]

sand nigger?!?! awesome!

desert shield called...he wants his derogatory term back.

[Seeker]

what's the latest and greatest slur? towelhead?

i must know so i can spout stylish slurs

[Guest_CANNONBALL_*]

hadji has been the term for some time.

sand nigger didn't last long in the early 90's due to the large amount of BLACK NEGROS in the mil.

I just hadnt heard 'sand niggers' in years...god that is funny shit that brings a smile.