Proof that racism is alive and well Options

[THECHICKEN]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090722/ap_on_...cholar_analysis

It took less than a day for the arrest of Henry Louis Gates to become racial lore. When one of America's most prominent black intellectuals winds up in handcuffs, it's not just another episode of profiling — it's a signpost on the nation's bumpy road to equality.

The news was parsed and Tweeted, rued and debated. This was, after all Henry "Skip" Gates: Summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Yale. MacArthur "genius grant" recipient. Acclaimed historian, Harvard professor and PBS documentarian. One of Time magazine's "25 Most Influential Americans" in 1997. Holder of 50 honorary degrees.

If this man can be taken away by police officers from the porch of his own home, what does it say about the treatment that average blacks can expect in 2009?

Earl Graves Jr., CEO of the company that publishes Black Enterprise magazine, was once stopped by police during his train commute to work, dressed in a suit and tie.

"My case took place back in 1995, and here we are 14 years later dealing with the same madness," he said Tuesday. "Barack Obama being the president has meant absolutely nothing to white law enforcement officers. Zero. So I have zero confidence that (Gates' case) will lead to any change whatsoever."

The 58-year-old professor had returned from a trip to China last Thursday afternoon and found the front door of his Cambridge, Mass., home stuck shut. Gates entered the back door, forced open the front door with help from a car service driver, and was on the phone with the Harvard leasing company when a white police sergeant arrived.

Gates and the sergeant gave differing accounts of what happened next. But for many people, that doesn't matter.

They don't care that Gates was charged not with breaking and entering, but with disorderly conduct after repeatedly demanding the sergeant's name and badge number. It doesn't matter whether Gates was yelling, or accused Sgt. James Crowley of being racist, or that all charges were dropped Tuesday.

All they see is pure, naked racial profiling.

"Under any account ... all of it is totally uncalled for," said Graves.

"It never would have happened — imagine a white professor, a distinguished white professor at Harvard, walking around with a cane, going into his own house, being harassed or stopped by the police. It would never happen."

Racial profiling became a national issue in the 1990s, when highway police on major drug delivery routes were accused of stopping drivers simply for being black. Lawsuits were filed, studies were commissioned, data was analyzed. "It is wrong, and we will end it in America," President George W. Bush said in 2001.

Yet for every study that concluded police disproportionately stop, search and arrest minorities, another expert came to a different conclusion. "That's always going to be the case," Greg Ridgeway, who has a Ph.D in statistics and studies racial profiling for the RAND research group, said on Monday. "You're never going to be able to (statistically) prove racial profiling. ... There's always a plausible explanation."

Federal legislation to ban racial profiling has languished since being introduced in 2007 by a dozen Democratic senators, including then-Sen. Barack Obama.

U.S. Rep. Danny Davis, D-Ill., said that was partly because "when you look at statistics, and you're trying to prove the extent, the information comes back that there's not nearly as much (profiling) as we continue to experience."

But Davis has no doubt that profiling is real: He says he was stopped while driving in Chicago in 2007 for no reason other than the fact he is black. Police gave him a ticket for swerving over the center line; a judge said the ticket didn't make sense and dismissed it.

"Trying to reach this balance of equity, equal treatment, equal protection under the law, equal understanding, equal opportunity, is something that we will always be confronted with. We may as well be prepared for it," he said.

Amid the indignation over Gates' case, a few people pointed out that he may have violated the cardinal rule of avoiding arrest: Do not antagonize the cops.

The police report said that Gates yelled at the officer, refused to calm down and behaved in a "tumultuous" manner. Gates said he simply asked for the officer's identification, followed him into his porch when the information was not forthcoming, and was arrested for no reason. But something about being asked to prove that you live in your own home clearly struck a nerve — both for Gates and his defenders.

"You feel violated, embarrassed, not sure what is taking place, especially when you haven't done anything," said Graves of his own experience, when police made him face the wall and frisked him in Grand Central Station in New York City. "You feel shocked, then you realize what's happening, and then you feel it's a violation of everything you stand for."

And that this should happen to "Skip" Gates — the unblemished embodiment of President Obama's recent admonition to black America not to search for handouts or favors, but to "seize our own future, each and every day" — shook many people to the core.

Wrote Lawrence Bobo, Gates' Harvard colleague, who picked his friend up from jail: "Ain't nothing post-racial about the United States of America."

Obviously race related...

[FORSAKENR320]

i see no issue here in the arrest. the guy WAS instigating disorderly conduct. yelling at a police officer wether you're white or black accounts to the same thing, and thats the exact charge he was arrested for.

yell and scream at an officer who pulls you over for a broken tail light... you get that exact charge. (bonded that one out tonight, actually)


obviously the officer was called to the scene, a nieghbor alerted the police, etc. i see nothing wrong with asking for identification and proof of residency in a case involving a potential breaking and entering. so why would one be so upset about this? unless of course they thing that their prestige of accomplishments and their skin color should make them an acception to the laws that apply to everyone....

fucking race-cards

[chook]

IT could of been, but I was asked by an officer to show ID when I was in my own house once.

[impala454]

As soon as all criminal activity is split perfectly even between all races, I'll give "racial profiling" a second thought. Until then, this guy needs to STFU. That's not racism, it's statistics.

Not to mention I'd be elated that my neighbors called the police because they thought there was a break-in happening at my place. I'd be delighted to present my ID and show that it's my house and that everything is ok and thanks for coming out to make sure.

Lastly, I'm so sure the cops wouldn't have asked for ID if the guy was white...

[Spectatrix]

Without a third party to confirm what actually happened, its hard to discern whether this is a case of racial profiling or not. If the police report is accurate and the professor was acting irate, I certainly don't consider his arrest evidence of racism. If the professor is telling the truth that he happily produced identification and was arrested anyway, then something is indeed awry.

Racism is indeed alive and well in some corners of the world, but this case is too scant on reliable details to be used as evidence regarding race relations.

[The Fanatic]

I don't think it was racism. He was asked to cooperate and he refused. Those are the consequences. End of story.

This post has been edited by The Fanatic: Jul 22 2009, 10:24 AM

[Inferia]

I don't think it was racism. He was asked to cooperate and he refused. Those are the consequences. End of story.

Do you say that because you believe that a cop's story is more reliable than someone who is not a cop? Or do you say that because the person who is saying the other side of the story is a black man? Either way, I don't think it's end of the story, when the beginning of the story just started...


And impala, I don't know how you're familiar with the white privilege, or anyone on this board for that matter. Don't you think that being born black, and is an expert in African American studies would make one a little edgy when it comes to police officers identifying you as a criminal in your own home? I don't know, I would think so...

[impala454]

They weren't identifying him as a criminal. Just identifying. Are the officers supposed to not ask for his ID when the house was called in for a robbery?!?!

And where/when did I claim to be familiar with anyone on the board and why does that even matter?

This post has been edited by jonathan83: Jul 22 2009, 01:04 PM

Reason for edit: profanity/insults

[The Fanatic]

Do you say that because you believe that a cop's story is more reliable than someone who is not a cop? Or do you say that because the person who is saying the other side of the story is a black man? Either way, I don't think it's end of the story, when the beginning of the story just started...


And impala, I don't know how you're familiar with the white privilege, or anyone on this board for that matter. Don't you think that being born black, and is an expert in African American studies would make one a little edgy when it comes to police officers identifying you as a criminal in your own home? I don't know, I would think so...

You bring up a valid point, however if the man in question was White and arrested for similar reasons then my opinion would remain unchanged. So do you believe that a cop's story isn't reliable? I guess it depends on the cop or person in question to determine how reliable a story is or is not. I don't know these people personally and I do admit that sometimes cops can get unruly and power hungry. However, he should have just showed the officer his ID instead of jumping to conclusions. If anyone's racist it's probably the woman who called in the robbery.


This post has been edited by jonathan83: Jul 22 2009, 01:10 PM

Reason for edit: removed quoted insult from impala's post

[jonathan83]

this is NPR and everyone is supposed to be civil in here. no more insults impala.

[THECHICKEN]

If you look at the picture on the webpage, one of the arresting officers is black.

Even in the video the guys friend breaks it down like this: "he showed his identification and then asked for the cops name and badge number so he could file a complaint".

In my opinion this black scholar had a chip on his shoulder and had a belief that because a cop was following up on a reported breaking and entering he was obviously racist. Hell even if the cop was an asshole to him.... IT WAS A REPORTED FELONY, of course the cop would be edgy going to a call like that. Shit if i was the cops i would say "we don't apologize and hopefully he doesn't have a real need for police in the future. " Profiling would be stopping a guy for being in a white neighborhood. This guy was arrested for being an asshole to a cop who was there FOR A VALID REASON (call about break-in). How its racism in the least i don't see it.

[chook]

More like white privledged to pay for student loans.

[Inferia]

You bring up a valid point, however if the man in question was White and arrested for similar reasons then my opinion would remain unchanged. So do you believe that a cop's story isn't reliable? I guess it depends on the cop or person in question to determine how reliable a story is or is not. I don't know these people personally and I do admit that sometimes cops can get unruly and power hungry. However, he should have just showed the officer his ID instead of jumping to conclusions. If anyone's racist it's probably the woman who called in the robbery.

I mostly commented on that because I was reading another website earlier, and one of the commenters said that many people seemed to believe the cop's story over Gates' story. This is particularly interesting because I feel like cops do not have a great reputation, and in many situations people tend to believe "the people" over the cops. I don't know which one is more reliable, I think both parties were stressed out and were in a heightened emotional state, which probably screws with everyone's memories. Plus Gates probably just got off a 16 hr flight and with jetlag, not the greatest time for stuff to go down.

this story reminds me something a friend told that happened to him a few years back. He was in high school at the time, and the first time that he realized what race is. He was walking down the street in NYC with a friend, and the cops were looking for someone who's black and wearing a black coat. My friend was stopped, face pressed to the wall and hand cuffed. All because he was black and wearing a black coat, he said that his life flashed before his eyes and was worried that he will have to spend the rest of his life in jail for a crime that he didn't even know about.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0722/p02s01-usju.html
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion/4542..._racial_project

couple of other articles on the matter/person. Mind you, the nation is pretty left winged (though apparently slowly migrating east).

[FORSAKENR320]

jet lag or not, it's no excuse for not cooperating with the law.


thats like you saying that it's ok to beat your wife if you've had a bad day.




i think the only real racist in this situation is the black professor

[chook]

Damn, he compares himself to W.E.B. DuBois. This guy is a prick who uses race to keep us seperated instead of just Americans.

[jonathan83]

uses race to keep us separated instead of just Americans.

just like al sharpton and jesse jackson.

[Inferia]

I feel like people who say that people who say there's a problem with race is trying to segregate doesn't understand race or white privilege....

[blaarg]

The part of the story that I found to be the most upsetting is when the cop entered the home without Gates' permission -- following him when he went to get his ID. Isn't that illegal?

Also, Gates' holds no grudges for the person who originally called in the break-in. He was on CNN last night for the "Black in America" series, and said that he owes someone a fruit basket.

Finally, I think it was a good point discussing how people find the police officer's report believable as opposed to Gates' perspective. I mulled that over for a while.

[impala454]

I feel like people who say that people who say there's a problem with race is trying to segregate doesn't understand race or white privilege....

And this is the same BS answer everyone uses. "They just don't understand." That's not an answer. If we don't understand, then explain it.

I'm so sick and tired of the "woe is me" attitude that some minorities have and how they blame their skin color for the reason they're unsuccessful in life.

[Inferia]

The part of the story that I found to be the most upsetting is when the cop entered the home without Gates' permission -- following him when he went to get his ID. Isn't that illegal?

Also, Gates' holds no grudges for the person who originally called in the break-in. He was on CNN last night for the "Black in America" series, and said that he owes someone a fruit basket.

Finally, I think it was a good point discussing how people find the police officer's report believable as opposed to Gates' perspective. I mulled that over for a while.

I thought he said on CNN that he never left his house nor did the cops go in? Cuz he understands that the cops can't come in (well at least come in and arrest him without permission), and if leaves the house, he then can be arrested...

I find it interesting that people who are minorities find Gates' account more believable and white people find the cop's account more believable... I feel like if nothing, that says that there isn't just "one American".

Personally I don't think the cop is a racist, this doesn't mean I don't think race wasn't involved, I just think he doesn't understand the finer points of race and discrimination. That is all understandable, most people don't, even experts can't say they know everything since race is a ever-changing thing. That said, I don't think the cop should apologize, or feel pressured to apologize if he doesn't understand what he did wrong. Most I hope for is for him, maybe for both parties to understand what happened there, what implications were involved and what they did that escalated the situation.

[Hartmann]

The part of the story that I found to be the most upsetting is when the cop entered the home without Gates' permission -- following him when he went to get his ID. Isn't that illegal?

Since it was called-in as a burglary it is my understanding that the cop does not need permission because the call is probable cause.

Also, Gates' holds no grudges for the person who originally called in the break-in. He was on CNN last night for the "Black in America" series, and said that he owes someone a fruit basket.

Finally, I think it was a good point discussing how people find the police officer's report believable as opposed to Gates' perspective. I mulled that over for a while.

So wait, he holds no grudges against the person who called-in the break-in but thinks the cops profiled him? Isn't that a little oxy-moronic? "Hey, there's a black man going into that house, better call the police" = good. Cops showing up and arresting someone based on the call and sorting it out at the police station = not good.

What I find interesting is the President commenting on the case and saying "the cops acted stupidly" in arresting Gates. How about we wait until an investigation is done on the conduct of the officers before we start throwing fuel on a potential powder keg?

I honestly think the cop made a mistake in a tense situation, but I do not think he acted the way he did due to racism. Gates also handled this poorly and should have never brought race into the equation. Had he been a white guy and falsely arrested, this story wouldn't even be news.

[blaarg]

So wait, he holds no grudges against the person who called-in the break-in but thinks the cops profiled him? Isn't that a little oxy-moronic? "Hey, there's a black man going into that house, better call the police" = good. Cops showing up and arresting someone based on the call and sorting it out at the police station = not good.

More like "hey there's a man forcing his way into the house, better call the police" which seems reasonable, and Gates understands this. Gates said, while giving an interview, that if someone was breaking into his house at the time he was giving the interview, he would hope the same person would again call police.

[Inferia]

So wait, he holds no grudges against the person who called-in the break-in but thinks the cops profiled him? Isn't that a little oxy-moronic? "Hey, there's a black man going into that house, better call the police" = good. Cops showing up and arresting someone based on the call and sorting it out at the police station = not good.

What I find interesting is the President commenting on the case and saying "the cops acted stupidly" in arresting Gates. How about we wait until an investigation is done on the conduct of the officers before we start throwing fuel on a potential powder keg?

I honestly think the cop made a mistake in a tense situation, but I do not think he acted the way he did due to racism. Gates also handled this poorly and should have never brought race into the equation. Had he been a white guy and falsely arrested, this story wouldn't even be news.

I think the part he had the most problem with was the arrest part, not so much that the cops came over to check this out.

When do you think one should bring race into the equation? How do you know it's has nothing to do with race? Why are you (not just you, but lots of people) so content in shoveling that theory away? What if there is something to do with race? If we just shove it in the corner, it will come back to hunt us, and probably in a much more destructive manner... I feel like it's better to address issues as they are handed to us.

[impala454]

The part of the story that I found to be the most upsetting is when the cop entered the home without Gates' permission -- following him when he went to get his ID. Isn't that illegal?

Considering they were there investigating a robbery I don't see how. If I was a smart criminal I'd say "Oh yeah this is my house, wait here while I run out the back door *cough* I mean get my ID *cough*.

Finally, I think it was a good point discussing how people find the police officer's report believable as opposed to Gates' perspective. I mulled that over for a while.

I don't see that there was anything not to believe from either party. Both seemed to agree on all the points of what happened. The disagreement was in the intent of the officers. And in that case, which of these do you think is more likely?

1. Robbery call on a house. Police show up. A guy answers the door. Cops ask for his ID. Man gets irate and uncooperative, so cops arrest him.

2. Robbery call on a house. Police show up. See a black man answer the door. Cops decide "Oh it's a black guy, we hate black people, let's hassle him for his ID because we definitely wouldn't ask for a person's ID while we're here checking out a robbery call."

[Hartmann]

I think the part he had the most problem with was the arrest part, not so much that the cops came over to check this out.

When do you think one should bring race into the equation? How do you know it's has nothing to do with race? Why are you (not just you, but lots of people) so content in shoveling that theory away? What if there is something to do with race? If we just shove it in the corner, it will come back to hunt us, and probably in a much more destructive manner... I feel like it's better to address issues as they are handed to us.

I am not suggesting that we throw these things into the corner, I am suggesting that we not make public spectacles of them. We have a firestorm going on in Houston right now over racism within the fire department and while it should be investigated and those responsible held accountable, we do not need Quanell X going around sparking more divisiveness.

Gates absolutely has a right to bring up race when he feels it is a legitimate case, but that does not mean screaming to the media about injustice.

There is definitely some racism in the U.S. today and it's wrong, but it will not go away until all parties make a concerted effort to see it through.

[Hartmann]

More like "hey there's a man forcing his way into the house, better call the police" which seems reasonable, and Gates understands this. Gates said, while giving an interview, that if someone was breaking into his house at the time he was giving the interview, he would hope the same person would again call police.

So it's ok for someone to call the police but not ok for the police to question the validity of someone legally being allowed in the house after said phone call?

[Inferia]

So it's ok for someone to call the police but not ok for the police to question the validity of someone legally being allowed in the house after said phone call?

I think the problem here is how the situation was handled after the cops responded to the call. The stories are different between the two parties. Furthermore, the following problem is some people believe the cop's story over that of Gates', which may or may not suggest racial overtones. It is okay for someone to call the cops, it is okay for the cops to respond, but it is not okay for the cops to arrest a guy at his own home without a serious issue, and I think that's what the debate is about.

I'm not sure what the right course of action is for Gates, it seems like the Media likes to pick up on these type of news, especially when it involves someone as prominent as Gates. Though, Gates seem to have done his part to fan the flame, which may or may not be what he should be doing. I think in the end, it does one of many things, one get people to talk about race, this I think is not a bad thing. I understand the need for cohesiveness and an end to divisiveness, and I believe this can not be accomplished without discussing the issues. On the other hand, frequent discussions on differences, may result in a lot of tension, but I think in the long run this may be a more beneficial thing.

I don't know if this is a right analogy, but I always bring up issues we have in the relationship with my boyfriend. He doesn't, or didn't I should say, want to deal with for a long time. In the end, I think he felt too that it was important to deal with it earlier on than later when it might be too late or more difficult to deal with. Of course, our issues are private and personal, so it's not something that's worth going to the media about. But there are issues that are important, and prevalent in society. Maybe Gates is too quick in deducing this down to a race-based issue, but that means it's also too quick to deducing it down to not a race-based issue... I don't know when the "right" time it is to talk about this, but I guess it's happening now, so that's why people are talking about it.

[blaarg]

I think the problem here is how the situation was handled after the cops responded to the call. The stories are different between the two parties. Furthermore, the following problem is some people believe the cop's story over that of Gates', which may or may not suggest racial overtones. It is okay for someone to call the cops, it is okay for the cops to respond, but it is not okay for the cops to arrest a guy at his own home without a serious issue, and I think that's what the debate is about.

I'm not sure what the right course of action is for Gates, it seems like the Media likes to pick up on these type of news, especially when it involves someone as prominent as Gates. Though, Gates seem to have done his part to fan the flame, which may or may not be what he should be doing. I think in the end, it does one of many things, one get people to talk about race, this I think is not a bad thing. I understand the need for cohesiveness and an end to divisiveness, and I believe this can not be accomplished without discussing the issues. On the other hand, frequent discussions on differences, may result in a lot of tension, but I think in the long run this may be a more beneficial thing.

I don't know if this is a right analogy, but I always bring up issues we have in the relationship with my boyfriend. He doesn't, or didn't I should say, want to deal with for a long time. In the end, I think he felt too that it was important to deal with it earlier on than later when it might be too late or more difficult to deal with. Of course, our issues are private and personal, so it's not something that's worth going to the media about. But there are issues that are important, and prevalent in society. Maybe Gates is too quick in deducing this down to a race-based issue, but that means it's also too quick to deducing it down to not a race-based issue... I don't know when the "right" time it is to talk about this, but I guess it's happening now, so that's why people are talking about it.

Here here! Excellent post.

[Inferia]

Oh one other thing, I feel like the problem most people have with Gates is that it seems like he is sitting on some mighty steed handing down his judgment, not so much that there isn't race involved. Everyone then gets very defensive and the quickest response is what race problem? That in the end probably will create more problems as well.

[impala454]

but it is not okay for the cops to arrest a guy at his own home without a serious issue,

Getting irate with the cops and not cooperating is serious enough to arrest on. So your whole basis for your argument just went out the window. He didn't have to act that way with the cops. He could have simply filed a complaint after the cops left rather than blowing up in their face calling them out racial profiling. That would have been the proper way for him to handle it and wouldn't have resulted in his arrest.

You say the facts are in dispute. The only fact that is in dispute is Gates' behavior with the officers. The officers claim he got irate and wasn't cooperating. Gates' claims he was calmly asking for their badge numbers. Think about it for one second. If he's upset enough and appalled at these officers for what he thinks is racial profiling, asking for their badge numbers, etc, do you really think he was perfectly calm during the whole encounter as he claimed to be?? Or do you think it's more reasonable that he was screaming and yelling and making a scene?

[THECHICKEN]

Ok will someone tell me the DIFFERENCE in stories? Because as much as i have read, i have seemed to have missed the part that was the cop being racist. Even from the "harvard proffessor's" view i haven't seen where he is claiming racism. Because ID was asked to be presented? I have a cop friend (a minority omg) who says they always ask for ID in a situation because it is one thing they can do without having any probable cause. Also lets them feel out the person (nervousness etc.).

If the guy refused to show ID then I would expect the officers to become suspcious of the most upstanding WHITE harvard proffessor. I just don't get where in the story the cops became profiling racists... Cops acting like dicks isn't enough (they are trained to act certain ways to semi-intimidate for thier protection). So will someone tell me the "suspected" racial acts done by the cops...

[Inferia]

Ok will someone tell me the DIFFERENCE in stories? Because as much as i have read, i have seemed to have missed the part that was the cop being racist. Even from the "harvard proffessor's" view i haven't seen where he is claiming racism. Because ID was asked to be presented? I have a cop friend (a minority omg) who says they always ask for ID in a situation because it is one thing they can do without having any probable cause. Also lets them feel out the person (nervousness etc.).

If the guy refused to show ID then I would expect the officers to become suspcious of the most upstanding WHITE harvard proffessor. I just don't get where in the story the cops became profiling racists... Cops acting like dicks isn't enough (they are trained to act certain ways to semi-intimidate for thier protection). So will someone tell me the "suspected" racial acts done by the cops...

What happened was Gates came home to find his door jammed, so he and his taxi driver forced the door open. While doing this someone (I can't remember if it's a neighbor or a passer by) saw them do it and reported to the police that someone is trying to break into this house. The cop came by, presumably after the taxi driver had already left, to check out the situation.

In Gates' version, Gates says that he was on the phone with the I can't remember who, some housing place about the door situation. The police comes by, asks for him to step out and demands for an ID. He obliges with the id portion, but does not step outside of the house, and asks for the cop's name and badge in return. The cop refused such request and order and further demands Gates to step out. Presumably he was arrested shortly after that.

In the cop's version, Gates was belligerent at him, yelling at him, calling him a racist. He refused to comply with showing him an ID initially, but eventually do so. Gates had asked him for his name, or yelled at him for his name, several times, which he gave several times. Finally, it was causing a big scene, Gates was arrested at that point.

The issue with profiling comes in towards the end, Gates felt like if were a white harvard professor, the cop would shown him more respect and would not have arrested him.

[cmac]

This situation aside, do those that are arguing race is not a factor in this situation believe that racism no longer exists in this country?

[jonathan83]

i dont think anyone believes that racism no longer exists. racism exists in every country, by every kind of people, and will never go away completely, ever. sad but true.

it's funny how everyone talks about america being so full of racism, when most americans don't realize how racist other countries can be.

take japan and korea for example. i know for a fact there are certain shops, clubs, etc. that have "foreigners not allowed" in them purely because of race. some races OTHER THAN WHITES seriously do believe their race is superior. in china, there are tons of races mixed together, so racism exists there too. there were just reports this week about the uyghurs being killed in large numbers. the main race, the han, seems similar to the whites in america. they're the majority, don't get as much flak, etc. or so what i've read and observed. inferia, i'd like to know your take on that, since i have this hunch that you're of the han race (sorry if i'm completely off though).

[THECHICKEN]

This situation aside, do those that are arguing race is not a factor in this situation believe that racism no longer exists in this country?

Of course not, I just don't see the racism in this situation.

If its just a question of "well they wouldn't have arrested a white person" i fully disagree. I've seen PLENTY of white people arrested for suspected things like this (had a friend have about 5 cop cars surround him at his house guns out because of a mis-identification of his car). If gates did absolutely nothing wrong and did everything the officer asked and was still arrested no questions asked, then i think there would have been a better case. But in this one he was asking for cops badge number showing SOMETHING was going on (some kind of disagreemend or complaint), that very well could have been the cops fault. And if it was the cops fault the arrest would have been wrong too... but I still don't think race had anything to do with it other than a call coming in saying black man with back-pack breaking into a home. If he would have done something "racist" to make gates ask for the badge number i think i would have heard it by now.

[cmac]

it's funny how everyone talks about america being so full of racism, when most americans don't realize how racist other countries can be.

absolutely. i think racism is very alive and well in the u.s. but compared to other countries, we're extremely mild.
i'm still, however, not sure of my opinion of this particular case. i can see both sides.

i believe that racism is often a card that is pulled too quickly because it's an easy copout. "you're harassing me because i'm black"
that would never fly for a Caucasian to say because we're by far the majority. but in some instances I believed people are judged because they're black.
i'd be willing to bet that most people that have gotten on an airplane with a middle eastern man after 9/11 has had a few racist thoughts go through their head. often times stereotypes creep in and can be unavoided.

This post has been edited by cmac: Jul 23 2009, 01:33 PM

[THECHICKEN]

Cop who arrested black scholar is profiling expert

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090723/ap_on_...olar_disorderly

LOL

[chook]

I feel like people who say that people who say there's a problem with race is trying to segregate doesn't understand race or white privilege....

I grew up in south Texas. Most of the people i grew up with are Mexicans and got treaded as such. Can I complain and be considered an activist? No I'm a racist. There is only privlilege where you live. If a problem is an actual racial one then yeah, it is. Someone calling it a racial issue when race was not even an issue is an asshole and causing stratification.

Jasper, yes it was racially motivated although the guy was a drug dealer. Laramie because the guy was a homosexual was also a hate crime. In this case the same thing would happen to anyone, guy just wants to be in the spotlight even if it costs us more as a society.

[chook]

This situation aside, do those that are arguing race is not a factor in this situation believe that racism no longer exists in this country?

Yes it is. In this case all what I know points to it not being racially motivated. I have friends who think anytime I do something that may offend them, its racially motivated. Other friends couldn't care two shits about race. Problem is that we will always have something as an issue. Race is getting replaced with social-economical status. In the past there were more ties between race and social economical status.

What I hate is when people cry wolf, so that society as a whole is tired of these accusations when a real atrocity occurs.

[Hartmann]

I think the problem here is how the situation was handled after the cops responded to the call. The stories are different between the two parties. Furthermore, the following problem is some people believe the cop's story over that of Gates', which may or may not suggest racial overtones. It is okay for someone to call the cops, it is okay for the cops to respond, but it is not okay for the cops to arrest a guy at his own home without a serious issue, and I think that's what the debate is about.

I'm not sure what the right course of action is for Gates, it seems like the Media likes to pick up on these type of news, especially when it involves someone as prominent as Gates. Though, Gates seem to have done his part to fan the flame, which may or may not be what he should be doing. I think in the end, it does one of many things, one get people to talk about race, this I think is not a bad thing. I understand the need for cohesiveness and an end to divisiveness, and I believe this can not be accomplished without discussing the issues. On the other hand, frequent discussions on differences, may result in a lot of tension, but I think in the long run this may be a more beneficial thing.

I don't know if this is a right analogy, but I always bring up issues we have in the relationship with my boyfriend. He doesn't, or didn't I should say, want to deal with for a long time. In the end, I think he felt too that it was important to deal with it earlier on than later when it might be too late or more difficult to deal with. Of course, our issues are private and personal, so it's not something that's worth going to the media about. But there are issues that are important, and prevalent in society. Maybe Gates is too quick in deducing this down to a race-based issue, but that means it's also too quick to deducing it down to not a race-based issue... I don't know when the "right" time it is to talk about this, but I guess it's happening now, so that's why people are talking about it.

I agree with your post but do have an issue with considering what Gates is doing as "discussing the issue" as he is more of accusing rather than discussing. And for the President to insert his opinion before an investigation is done is completely inappropriate and does nothing to add to the "discussion".

Your analogy is a good one though and I agree that it is too soon to say it wasn't a race based issue, just like it's too early to say it is.

There is definitely racism in the U.S. but there is also self-segregation and reverse racism (New Hampshire firefighters). My wife sees the self-segregation everyday at work and in part blames the education system. We have made race so important when taking tests and applying for college because the data on the back end is so important (funding, accredidation, etc.) that race is still a focus. The recent stats that show more mixed racial children being born makes me wonder what the future holds. At what point do we stop caring about race on a form?

[impala454]

from fox news:

A police report of the incident written by Officer Carlos Figueroa, who responded to the call with Crowley, says Crowley was already in the house when he walked in. The report says Crowley had asked Gates for some identification and Gates shouted that he would not give any information and called the sergeant a racist.

According to the report, Gates then yelled, "This is what happens to black men in America." When Crowley tried to calm him down, Gates shouted, "You don't know who you're messing with."

So according to the police report, he even refused to give his ID.

[Hartmann]

Gates' comments on CNN were on the inappropriate side. To paraphrase "it's taught me that black people or poor people should be wary of the police". What?! So black people are like poor people? Give me a break...

[woody]

i hope a real thief breaks into gates' home while he's there

[impala454]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/6545595.html
The police dept's union involved is asking for an apology from the President. This is awesome. That douchebag shoves his foot in his mouth every time he speaks without a teleprompter.

[cmac]

Did you catch The Daily Show last night when Jon Stewart drilled him for his response.? Hilarious.

[impala454]

naw, what'd he say? there a youtube somewhere?

[Inferia]

take japan and korea for example. i know for a fact there are certain shops, clubs, etc. that have "foreigners not allowed" in them purely because of race. some races OTHER THAN WHITES seriously do believe their race is superior. in china, there are tons of races mixed together, so racism exists there too. there were just reports this week about the uyghurs being killed in large numbers. the main race, the han, seems similar to the whites in america. they're the majority, don't get as much flak, etc. or so what i've read and observed. inferia, i'd like to know your take on that, since i have this hunch that you're of the han race (sorry if i'm completely off though).

There is racism everywhere you go in this world, it is to some degree unavoidable. America, is near the forefront of the race discussion, though I'm don't believe I would be right in saying that it is in the forefront of handling the "race issue". The majority of Chinese people you will meet in your life will be of the Han ethnicity, there are a whole bunch of other minority groups in China, but they make up only about 10% of the country. How I view China's take on race is kind of two folds, one is how people view race and the other is how the government view race. There is a slight discrepancy as to how the government want to view race and difference in race in China, but people for most part don't understand that there is an race issue. Much of what I feel like the people's understanding (include many people in the government, I don't know where the "cut off" is) of race is comparable to what of the more what I consider ignorant people in this country when it comes to race. Whereas the big difference is that at least more people here not only acknowledge race, but many actually do understand the race problem. There the number of people who would acknowledge that there is a race problem (in that the majority has a problem) is very few and far in between. Which in it self is more of the problem. Their exists to some degree affirmative action for minority, I can't remember they have a quota system or a lower of test score system (your ability to get into college is essentially based on one test score). They can have more children than rest of the city Hans, there are a few more, but I can't think of it. In Han's eyes, these are privileges that exists in for the minority and here is when things get tricky.

We should talk briefly about the concept of White Privilege. There have been extensive talk on the white privilege in this country, which is what much of the affirmative action stuff is based on. It is assumed that as a white person, we're not talking about a rich white person or a poor white person here (of course there are privileges attributed to wealth), we're talking about the color of your skin, has an easier time finding a job, a nice area to live, your kind of food in the supermarket, the assumption that you don't speak for your race, these are privileges that are not afforded to minorities. So a similar kind of privilege program works in China, though probably in a much unfortunate sense. Someone from the Han group will have an easier time finding work because it is very easy for them to find someone who is of a han background, and chances are that person will get the job over a minority. Hans are generally wealthier, they can always find a living space where is people of their ethnicity, where people will accept them purely based on race. Many do not really see this as a privilege that is unearned based on their race. Whereas for the 56 other minority groups, it will be more difficult for them to find a job, more difficult to find a place so they can have their way of life, a school where their kids can learn in their native language. The text books will talk about all the great things that Hans have done to make the country great, the tests are written by hans. In the end, you're starting at a further back starting point at birth if you were born a minority. All these problems exist in this country, but the big difference is that many people recognizes these invisible privileges, if only some of them. Whereas there, the belief is much more homogeneous.

Though I must disagree with you that many Americans don't realize that other countries or people in other countries can be racist. I think many believe that other people are too racist and try to use that as a justification for racism in this country. I've heard comments such as don't you think Mexicans are racist? Ultimately that's not the point, I personally don't think people should (or at least aim to try) justify their actions and attitudes based on the ignorance of another group of people.

[impala454]

We should talk briefly about the concept of White Privilege. There have been extensive talk on the white privilege in this country, which is what much of the affirmative action stuff is based on. It is assumed that as a white person, we're not talking about a rich white person or a poor white person here (of course there are privileges attributed to wealth), we're talking about the color of your skin, has an easier time finding a job, a nice area to live, your kind of food in the supermarket, the assumption that you don't speak for your race, these are privileges that are not afforded to minorities.

This is absolutely preposterous. These are perceptions, not privileges. There's a massive difference between the two. You seem to think that having a coined term makes it valid.

"Your kind of food in the supermarket"??!?! Are you kidding me? What "kind of food" is "white" food??!? What "kind of food" is "black" food? People like you, who continue to segregate people through your completely wacky perceptions, are the ones prolonging racial tension in this country. As soon as people like you stop seeing different "types of food" at the supermarket or assuming that a hiring or anything else that happens in a person's life is due to race, we will begin to see racial harmony here.

People who have mediocre lives and no ambition tend to try to find excuses for their mediocrity. Whether it's blaming their race, their parents, their luck, it's always anything but themselves. Your concept of "white privelege" does nothing but help mediocre people find excuses to remain mediocre. How many people who lead successful lives, regardless of their skin color, do you think were sitting around crying about "white privelege" their whole lives?

Oh and one more thing on food. Food IS segregated. There are different types of food. It's stupid to try to think that food somehow should be harmonious in a grocery store. Food is based on culture. Sure, some ingredients may blend between various cultures, but it still makes sense to separate Mexican food from Chinese food from Italian food. It has absolutely nothing to do with the customers, although quantities of food do depend on the customer base. you do generally see if an area has more hispanics, there's more of that type of food. It makes sense! DUH. It's not because the manager is shunning other types of customers it's because they sell more of it to those types! But your perception (not privelege) is the other way around (and wrong). It is so incredibly laughable to me that you should even point something like this out in a racial discussion, and shows the lack of thinking in your ideas.

[THECHICKEN]

Damn, impala beat me to it... lol

Food ...

[Inferia]

Okay, fine. Lets take black and white out of it. Lets just create a situation of an unknown race. Many of us believe that we should raise our kids a certain way so the kids can grow up to be a certain way. We don't let them eat candy before dinner because it creates a poor habit. We tell them to say thank you and please. We tell them to work hard to achieve a better life. Perhaps much of this is based on experience of the parents. That when we don't eat candy before dinner, we can grow to be a healthier adults, we worry about obesity less. We say thank and please, we work hard to achieve a better life because from experience of the parents and the people like the parents that working hard will give them a better life, that being polite will get you things life. And also for parents to neglect their kids, who abuse their kids, there will be consequences. Their kid will grow up not doing will in school, that their kid will have time surviving in this society, maybe the kid will be lazy since they didn't grow up with the mind set that when one works hard that they will get something. Maybe they will know that when they do something wrong, they will get severely punished, maybe they don't want to get beat up so they lie. Maybe if a whole generation of people grew up believing that no matter what they do, there's no way out. No matter how hard they work, they will always be looked at as criminals. What do you tell your kids in this situation? Son, work hard in school, because once you get out in the real world, people will treat you fairly? Because son, it hasn't, it hasn't treated your father fairly. Your father worked hard, but was the first to be laid off. Your father was polite, but people were still rude to me. Your father believe that no matter the color of your skin, people won't judge you because they think the less of you. No. That did not happen to your father. Your father was dragged down, kicked, and made believe that he was and never will be as good as the others. How would this effect a child? How would the thought of this at a very young age make one feel? Sometimes I can only imagine, but most of the time, I know...

You may believe that white privilege is fictional. You may believe that it is an excuse for the weak. I don't care to change your mind, I don't care what you believe in. But when you have kids, you can look into their eyes, and think about the words you say to them. And think about all those other kids in the world who are not hearing what they're hearing. And think about what would it be like if you were to believe no matter how hard you work, you will still get the short end of the stick, and think what they would grow up to be like.

[THECHICKEN]

There is a vast majority of minorities in prison over whites. It is a little easier for whites to succeed in life (in certain areas of the country), and the country was founded by white men. You want to talk about that i guess. What others are trying to say is that we aren't in the 60's anymore. Dogs and water cannons aren't used on minorities anymore. The zuit suit riots are long gone, and we don't need national gaurd to allow kids into schools. Hell the first latino is going to the supreme court, a black man has made president and being called a racist can END your public career nowadays.

How long does it take before the white man can stop saying sorry to other races for things he didn't do wrong?

[cmac]

naw, what'd he say? there a youtube somewhere?

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-july...hite-house-m-d-

[impala454]

Inferia, what you don't understand is that white people DO overachieve their parents, just like black people do and any other race does. There's no segregation along those lines. I am not even 30 yet and I already make more money than either of my parents ever have. I did not have my money handed to me on a silver platter. I had to go knee deep in loans to get my education, and work hard to gain the experience that earned me my money. Anyone who wants to can go to college, if they're willing to risk their success on taking loans. In fact, the poorer you are the easier it is to get loans or even grants for college. My father did not go to college. None of his six siblings went to college. They grew up poor and eating beans and such. But they overachieved their parents as well. I'm certain that if/when I have kids they'll overachieve me as well. It's the nature of human beings to do so. Not just white people like you seem to think.

You make an extremely valid point about parenting. But the question I ask you is, what in the bleepity bleepin bleep does that have to do with race? Does a minority parent have less "privilege" as you so call it to be a good parent and teach their kids right from wrong, or instill ambition into them rather than mediocrity?!? Trust me, being a bad parent is not limited to any race, skin color, nationality, income level, any line you want to draw.

Also, if you don't care what I think or believe, why are we still having this conversation?

[woody]

Your father worked hard, but was the first to be laid off. Your father was polite, but people were still rude to me. Your father believe that no matter the color of your skin, people won't judge you because they think the less of you. No. That did not happen to your father. Your father was dragged down, kicked, and made believe that he was and never will be as good as the others. How would this effect a child? How would the thought of this at a very young age make one feel? Sometimes I can only imagine, but most of the time, I know...

You may believe that white privilege is fictional. You may believe that it is an excuse for the weak. I don't care to change your mind, I don't care what you believe in. But when you have kids, you can look into their eyes, and think about the words you say to them. And think about all those other kids in the world who are not hearing what they're hearing. And think about what would it be like if you were to believe no matter how hard you work, you will still get the short end of the stick, and think what they would grow up to be like.

have you overachieved your parents?

[Inferia]

Last year, in front of my office on campus there was some multicultural program. They asked people to take a step forward or backward based on what it was like for them when growing up. They asked questions like if their parents had to work multiple jobs to support the family. One of the questions that was asked was whether if their parents told them that if they worked hard, they can be anything they want to be. Some people took a step forward, and many took a step back. I was watching by the side since I just got back from the library. I felt like I wanted to take a step back. I remember since I came to this country, my dad telling me that I will never be like one of them, that I will never fit in, that there are things I just can't be. That left a very heavy impact on my heart. Growing up, I never fit like I could be friends with Americans, namely white people. Around them, I felt smaller, I felt like the stuff I did and the things I knew was weird and not interesting. To some degree it was ironic that my only friends in hs were asian since for a longtime before that I was very wary about being asian people. That somehow being around asian people, people will see me as asian. That people will think less of me. I guess I found comfort amongst Asian people, I knew that at least around them, I didn't have to worry about being judged, I didn't have to feel smaller than them. I did okay in school, but these days I understand the bias there exists in schooling. I wasn't the most stellar student in hs or in college, but I believe I wasn't too bad. In part I know that is because my parents are both educated, and the deep rooted feeling of over a millennium for Chinese people that if they do well in school, they can achieve greatness, even the communist couldn't get rid of this one, not that they tried. And that is what I was told to do, and I guess when you're young, you do what you are told. Especially the one that is raised in the chinese mindset. Anyway, it wasn't until college, where I started feeling like I could be friends with white people, that they won't judge me. That people are very different, my difference is just one of them. I don't think I had good white friends until grad school. At times, I still feel like when I don't know something, or make some food that's a little bit different, they are going to look at me, and I'll feel like I'm less of a person.

I know these issues are not isolated to me. Lots of people of every race deal with self-esteem issues for being a little big, for being a little short, being a little less than not good enough, and it is hard. However, if you place the history of how your parents were raised growing up, their experiences, especially if they were educated, they were told they can't succeed, that if even if they try, they will never make it in this white world, things add up. You create layers upon layers of issues, and it is hard. In the end, I think it's these hardships that makes it less-likely for people to succeed. In the end there are lots of things in this life that is unfair. There have been study done on how tall people are more likely to succeed than people who are short, they make more money and I guess according to these studies that they are happier. That's one of these things that is unfair across the world - being born tall is an inherent advantage over people who are short. It's not to say that short people never succeed, or get the girl, but when it comes down to it, many short men feel like they are not as good. If you add on bald, you are even a little worse off. Is it fair that the short, bald men keep getting the short end of the stick about something they have no control over? Are they less of a human being? Can't they learn and become very valuable members of society? I think most people would agree that they can. But when short, bald men are systematically being looked over for promotions, for marriage, for that leading-man role, then there's something wrong. It's not to say there's something evil about tall men with a full head of hair, but they have to realize that there's something unfair. That just because they're going home with that girl over their shorter, balder friend, it doesn't make them a superior human being. It's just a privilege society has given them, a privilege they have in this world that they did not earn.

Today we had to move some furniture around in one of my other offices. The building manager came in to asked us if we had helped them move the stuff around. Namely, he talked to the white guy in the room. I was sitting right beside him and I've been in this building for almost 9 years now. Even though most of me feel like it is because we haven't interacted that much, he may not know my name, I couldn't help feeling if that guy was looking right past me because I'm Asian. I've worked in groups with people, where the company or manager person automatically started talking to the white male in the group, then the white female, then the none white male, then lastly, the none white female, even in the case where I've done a vast majority of the work. You look at the person in charge, many times it's a white male, you just feel a little smaller, a little less confident in what you have to say. But in the end, it those who do the talking get the credit. Perhaps you can say that it is my fault for not speaking up, but knowing all the tough times and insecurities when it comes to having been brought up/grown up a certain way, I really have trouble believing in that.

I think saying that I can care if you understood or not, or if you agreed or not, maybe the wrong statement. I guess I should've said that I know I can't make you understand or agree. It's something you have to come to agreement your self.

[THECHICKEN]

Sounds pretty Self-fulfilling to me. You believe that the world is a certain way, then look at situations to find it. Don't want to sound mean, but thats just the way it seems to me.

You yourself say that you naturally migrated to other asians because it makes you more comfortable. Its human nature to migrate to others that are similar. Yet you also make yourself feel bad or lessor because of this when it is done by another (maybe the white guy talking to the white guy was doing the human nature thing of going with what he knows because he was uncomfortable talking infront of a number of people). Theres no bias or ill will in it as im sure you don't feel more comfortable around asians as a way to say you hate whites. If it is something you yourself do and understand (you obviously try to be educated on the subject) then why is the "privilege" a "white privilege"? If i went to asia (or hell even asia-town) as a white male would i not feel the same as a you around whites? Should we expand the conversation to "asian privilege"?

[Mommy]

I just can't believe anyone had the attention span to read her dissertations. Oh well. I don't really care about this topic anyway.

[FORSAKENR320]

inferia... try finding me a Poor White Male scholarship, or a White Entertainment Television Channel, or a White History Month. then start talking about "white privelege"

[impala454]

It's so easy to see where your coming from now inferia. You had a "tough" childhood just like everyone else in existence. In that same room full of people, ask everyone to raise their hand who had a rough childhood. My guess is that 95% of the people raise their hand. The only difference with you and others who think like you is that you blame it on your race/skin color/whatever, vs some blamed it on them being fat, some blamed it on them being poor, some blamed it on being ugly, some blamed it on them not being smart, or funny, or social, or whatever. The sad part is, you still do not realize, it was all YOU. Only you could have changed your situation. It sounds like you did do that, but just didn't do it until college. Guess what, kids grow up, they mature. Read our own post for God's sake. The whole time what are you talking about? Your feelings about how other people were, not the other people's feelings. So you see, this whole concept of "white privilege" is not in fact privilege, it's just your own lousy perceptions and copouts. It's like those people who cry about being single, but also never ask anyone out, and then look for excuses for reasons they're single. I think you need to take a large look inward before you start placing blame outward.

[Mommy]

You know, people think that white people aren't victims of racism, and we are. When I was 14 years old, I lived in El Paso, TX, a community nearing 1 million people and is 87% Hispanic. I worked for the Red Cross at a military hospital. I had some Mexican girls tell my supervisor that I smelled horrible and they refused to work in the same room with me ever again. I had only worked in their department for less than a day, I had showered that morning, and my clothes were clean. Not a single one of them even looked at me or spoke to me when I was first introduced to them when I moved into their department. My supervisor pulled me aside to tell me that she felt she could resolve the situation if I went home and showered. I told her to smell me. She said that she already had and that I smelled pretty good actually. She called the department and told them that I was going to go home and shower and that I would be back. They told me supervisor that they didn't want me back in there even if I showered. I KNOW it was the color of my skin. I was there as a VOLUNTEER and the other girls my age were there as part of some government program that would give them money because they were low income.

Everyone has their stories, Inferia. It's America. You just have to get some tough skin and deal with it.

[Dogmeat]

Last year, in front of my office on campus there was some multicultural program. They asked people to take a step forward or backward based on what it was like for them when growing up. They asked questions like if their parents had to work multiple jobs to support the family. One of the questions that was asked was whether if their parents told them that if they worked hard, they can be anything they want to be. Some people took a step forward, and many took a step back. I was watching by the side since I just got back from the library. I felt like I wanted to take a step back. I remember since I came to this country, my dad telling me that I will never be like one of them, that I will never fit in, that there are things I just can't be. That left a very heavy impact on my heart. Growing up, I never fit like I could be friends with Americans, namely white people.

So in other words, your father brainwashed you into thinking that the deck was stacked against you from birth, and you've hence lived your live under that false premise. The fact that your family chose to come to the US from China implies that they were seeking equal opportunity, yet somehow everything you're saying here eludes to the fact that they never believed that, and the deck was stacked against them from day one. It's sort of preposterous if you ask me. Why would you leave your homeland and come to a place that you claim isn't giving you equal opportunity?

Around them, I felt smaller, I felt like the stuff I did and the things I knew was weird and not interesting.

There are 10 million white, black mexican, whatever kids in highschool who feel that way. This is not in any way shape or form mutually exclusive to being a "minority" in the US public school system.

To some degree it was ironic that my only friends in hs were asian since for a longtime before that I was very wary about being asian people. That somehow being around asian people, people will see me as asian. That people will think less of me. I guess I found comfort amongst Asian people, I knew that at least around them, I didn't have to worry about being judged, I didn't have to feel smaller than them.

To assume asian people do not judge asian people is highly improbable as well as a very egotistical statement. Asians are no better or no worse than any other race on this planet when it comes to "Judging people". This is a purley human trait, and is not in any way shape or form mutually exclusive to any one race. You perceived that you were not "judged" by asians. It was your perception. Your perceptions were obviously heavily influenced by your family's views and opinions. This is an unavoidable fact of life that you are your parents children. With that said, your father was heavily biased in this respect.

I did okay in school, but these days I understand the bias there exists in schooling. I wasn't the most stellar student in hs or in college, but I believe I wasn't too bad. In part I know that is because my parents are both educated, and the deep rooted feeling of over a millennium for Chinese people that if they do well in school, they can achieve greatness, even the communist couldn't get rid of this one, not that they tried. And that is what I was told to do, and I guess when you're young, you do what you are told. Especially the one that is raised in the chinese mindset. Anyway, it wasn't until college, where I started feeling like I could be friends with white people, that they won't judge me. That people are very different, my difference is just one of them. I don't think I had good white friends until grad school. At times, I still feel like when I don't know something, or make some food that's a little bit different, they are going to look at me, and I'll feel like I'm less of a person.

Again, your synopsis for your feelings of being uncomfortable come from your perceptions it's because of your race. Again, I make the conjecture that there are MILLIONS of other people out there of all races that feel the same way, for whatever reason. It is again, not a racial issue, and you are trying to force it to be one. Everything you've described here is at least as best as I can tell, pretty typical of being in school, public or acadamia, in the us.

I know these issues are not isolated to me. Lots of people of every race deal with self-esteem issues for being a little big, for being a little short, being a little less than not good enough, and it is hard. However, if you place the history of how your parents were raised growing up, their experiences, especially if they were educated, they were told they can't succeed, that if even if they try, they will never make it in this white world, things add up. You create layers upon layers of issues, and it is hard. In the end, I think it's these hardships that makes it less-likely for people to succeed. In the end there are lots of things in this life that is unfair. There have been study done on how tall people are more likely to succeed than people who are short, they make more money and I guess according to these studies that they are happier.

....?

So now because you aren't 6'5" you can't succeed....? I don't buy into that for a fucking second. I know thousands of people, literally, who are at least 6" shorter than I am and are far more successful than I am.

That's one of these things that is unfair across the world - being born tall is an inherent advantage over people who are short. It's not to say that short people never succeed, or get the girl, but when it comes down to it, many short men feel like they are not as good. If you add on bald, you are even a little worse off. Is it fair that the short, bald men keep getting the short end of the stick about something they have no control over? Are they less of a human being? Can't they learn and become very valuable members of society? I think most people would agree that they can. But when short, bald men are systematically being looked over for promotions, for marriage, for that leading-man role, then there's something wrong. It's not to say there's something evil about tall men with a full head of hair, but they have to realize that there's something unfair. That just because they're going home with that girl over their shorter, balder friend, it doesn't make them a superior human being. It's just a privilege society has given them, a privilege they have in this world that they did not earn.

Nobody handed me my degree. Nobody handed me my job. I had to do the same thing everyone else who is in the position I am in did. I worked for it. You are a fool to think that I got to where I am in life because I'm taller than average. It helps changing lightbulbs out or if you're REALLY tall playing basketball, other than that, it's sort of a pain in the ass honestly.

Today we had to move some furniture around in one of my other offices. The building manager came in to asked us if we had helped them move the stuff around. Namely, he talked to the white guy in the room. I was sitting right beside him and I've been in this building for almost 9 years now. Even though most of me feel like it is because we haven't interacted that much, he may not know my name, I couldn't help feeling if that guy was looking right past me because I'm Asian.

This is YOU using your race as a crutch. You're pre-disposed to it. Your first instinct whenever something happens or does not happen is that it is based on your race. Take race out of the equation, and ask yourself the same questions. Could it be a lot of what is happening or has happened is based on YOUR ATTITUDE, and _NOT_ the color of your skin? Tough question I dbout most people ever are willing to answer. It's much easier to use race as an excuse.

And for crying out loud, you're griping because you DIDNT have to help move furniture? Huh?

I've worked in groups with people, where the company or manager person automatically started talking to the white male in the group, then the white female, then the none white male, then lastly, the none white female, even in the case where I've done a vast majority of the work. You look at the person in charge, many times it's a white male, you just feel a little smaller, a little less confident in what you have to say. But in the end, it those who do the talking get the credit. Perhaps you can say that it is my fault for not speaking up, but knowing all the tough times and insecurities when it comes to having been brought up/grown up a certain way, I really have trouble believing in that.

Those who assume leadership roles are points of contact. It's based much more on a person's attutitude they project than the color of their skin. Black, white, it doesn't matter. In fact I'm right in the middle of leadership training and they address these same questions. You are pre-disposed to assuming EVERYONE has racial prejudices against asians. You were raised that way. That is the problem here, not other people. The general trend is how you perceive things based on the way you were raised, and it is up to YOU to change it, because YOU are the one who needs to change, not everyone else. The rest of the world does not owe you or anyone else a thing because of the color of yoru skin.

I think saying that I can care if you understood or not, or if you agreed or not, maybe the wrong statement. I guess I should've said that I know I can't make you understand or agree. It's something you have to come to agreement your self.

I am not trying to be inflamatory here, but everything I have ever read that you've stated about this leads me to believe that you are the one who is pre-disposed to being the victim here. Some guy doesn't ask you to help move furniture, and you automatically assume it's because he's biased against asians? Let's think about that, you've got the tall strong 6'5" asian olypmic weightlifter, or a skinny white nerd. Who are you gonna ask to help move furniture? Wow, the answer to that question wasn't based on race at all, was it?

The bottom line is, everyone on this planet needs to stop seeing race PERIOD. Just stop. End it. There is no more color, there is no more race. Stop seeing things in terms of color, and start seeing things in terms of practicality, reality, and accomplishment. Start seeing actions, not superficial attributes.

Again, the only thing I can say is you are the one who needs to start looking past race, not everyone else.

[cmac]

I'm not sure that any of us could completely give a full assessment of experiencing racism without living a day in someone of an alternate race's shoes.

[Mommy]

I'm not sure that any of us could completely give a full assessment of experiencing racism without living a day in someone of an alternate race's shoes.

Why is that? Every race experiences it.

[impala454]

I'm not sure that any of us could completely give a full assessment of experiencing racism without living a day in someone of an alternate race's shoes.

Who tried to give a "full assessment of experiencing racism"??

[Mommy]

I think cmac's statement would have been more accurate if he would have changed "someone of an alternate race's shoes" to "without living the shoes of every other race that exists."

And yeah, I don't think anyone here was trying to give a full assessment.

[cmac]

I think cmac's statement would have been more accurate if he would have changed "someone of an alternate race's shoes" to "without living the shoes of every other race that exists."

yeah, that's more what i meant.

And yeah, I don't think anyone here was trying to give a full assessment.

right, i wasn't saying anyone was.
i'm just saying it's difficult to describe someone's hardships without having really been in their shoes. i think that's common sense.
one of the reasons I haven't really chimed in on this thread. i'm not sure if i'm allowed to really have an opinion on racism being a white male, pretty much the most dominant race and sex. things have been relatively easy for us.

[Spectatrix]

If I've experienced any discrimination as a result of being a women, I haven't noticed it. Too busy kicking butt and taking names!

[impala454]

i'm just saying it's difficult to describe someone's hardships without having really been in their shoes.

There are very few people in this world that grew up and went through life without being shunned in some way or another by some other people or a group of other people. I'd venture to declare that not a single person who went through a typical jr high in this country got through the whole time without getting made fun of in some way. No matter how attractive, popular, rich, etc they were. Some kids get past it, some don't, but it's the ones who look back on those times as a development of character, rather than wallow in them and in their own self pity, that are successful later in life.

[Mommy]

There are very few people in this world that grew up and went through life without being shunned in some way or another by some other people or a group of other people. I'd venture to declare that not a single person who went through a typical jr high in this country got through the whole time without getting made fun of in some way. No matter how attractive, popular, rich, etc they were. Some kids get past it, some don't, but it's the ones who look back on those times as a development of character, rather than wallow in them and in their own self pity, that are successful later in life.

I'll be honest with y'all... Out of EVERYONE I know, my brother has gotten the most shit during his life. If you can think of something embarrassing, it's most likely happened to my brother. He's 16 and has 2 years of high school left. If he has as bad of a year as he did last year, though, my mom is going to pull him out and home school him the rest of the way. He gets up every day, and carries on with life. Yeah, there are days that he actually cries about having to go to school, but he picks himself back up and goes. That's what everyone needs to do... just pick yourself up and carry on.

[cmac]

There are very few people in this world that grew up and went through life without being shunned in some way or another by some other people or a group of other people. I'd venture to declare that not a single person who went through a typical jr high in this country got through the whole time without getting made fun of in some way. No matter how attractive, popular, rich, etc they were. Some kids get past it, some don't, but it's the ones who look back on those times as a development of character, rather than wallow in them and in their own self pity, that are successful later in life.

i was always the popular kid in jh, hs, and college. the jock. straight As. etc. never teased or ridiculed. usually the one doing most of that.
i sometimes think i missed out. i think teasing and bullying can really do good things to shape an individual's character.
edit: not trying to be holier than thou. just really was the way i grew up...

This post has been edited by cmac: Jul 27 2009, 03:48 PM

[Dogmeat]

I'm not sure that any of us could completely give a full assessment of experiencing racism without living a day in someone of an alternate race's shoes.

The fuck we can't. Everyone on this fucking planet can.

[Spectatrix]

There are very few people in this world that grew up and went through life without being shunned in some way or another by some other people or a group of other people. I'd venture to declare that not a single person who went through a typical jr high in this country got through the whole time without getting made fun of in some way. No matter how attractive, popular, rich, etc they were. Some kids get past it, some don't, but it's the ones who look back on those times as a development of character, rather than wallow in them and in their own self pity, that are successful later in life.

Yep. I was shunned for several years simply because I wasn't interested in all the stupid shit that most teenage girls are (dances, going to the mall, makeup, going gaga over boys, etc.) I was more interested in swimming, reading, and playing video games.

[cmac]

So the arresting officer did violate the law after all. It is illegal in Massachusetts to arrest someone for yelling at or berating an officer.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-winkler...244888.html?1=1

[impala454]

i was always the popular kid in jh, hs, and college. the jock. straight As. etc. never teased or ridiculed. usually the one doing most of that.
i sometimes think i missed out. i think teasing and bullying can really do good things to shape an individual's character.
edit: not trying to be holier than thou. just really was the way i grew up...

You mean to tell me your entire life nobody ever made fun of you at all? I call major bullshit. Hell you have been made fun of by people on here before.

[chook]

So the arresting officer did violate the law after all. It is illegal in Massachusetts to arrest someone for yelling at or berating an officer.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-winkler...244888.html?1=1

From reading that writeup, it looks like the laws for disorderly conduct are still law and some courts have intereperted it to mean that berating a cop is covered under free speach. Without looking into it, it looks like the cop's arrest was ok and the DA would choose how to deal with the charge.

Sorry Cmac, its seemed like a strong arguement, but after reading the paper it seems the nut graff is quite misleading.

[cmac]

You mean to tell me your entire life nobody ever made fun of you at all? I call major bullshit. Hell you have been made fun of by people on here before.

yeah, that's what i'm telling ya. not that i can recall off hand anyway.
i'm not quite sure a difference in opinion is considered 'made fun of?'

[impala454]

You're wacky man I dunno what to say. How are you comparing "difference in opinion" to being "made fun of"?? Those two concepts do not have anything to do with each other.

Made fun of = "hey you're a doo doo head"

Difference of opinion = "I think blue is a great color." "well, I do not"

If you think nobody made fun of you growing up ever, you're even more stuck up than I thought. Seems more to me like you're just posting business as usual claiming some dumbass personal anecdote to try to counter whatever point it is someone is trying to make.

[cmac]

no.
i think it's possible that people were never made fun of growing up. speaking from personal experience.
i grew up in a ridiculously small town and my grad class had 21 people in it.
we were all close from k-12. i participated in every sport and was valedictorian. played sports in college. i have 0 recollection of being made fun of, teased, etc.
talked about behind my back, probably, but that's not being made fun of.
i don't recall being called a doo doo head on this site.
i'm just saying, it does happen.
tease me if you wish. then we can defunct my "myth."

[Dogmeat]

yeah, that's what i'm telling ya. not that i can recall off hand anyway.
i'm not quite sure a difference in opinion is considered 'made fun of?'

christ I would have beat the shit out of you daily until you killed yourself had you gone to my highschool. your whole highschool must have been just chock full of queers

[cmac]

[impala454]

Lol bragging about valedictorian and playing all sports with his graduation class of 21.

And yes, being made fun of behind your back is still being made fun of.

Bottom line, is you know I'm right, and as usual you think you're some damn special case when you're really not.


p.s. I bet you never cried as a kid either right? Probably never got a bruise before? I bet you haven't ever even taken a shit! Your food is probably transformed into a sweet smelling perfume rather than shit.

[woody]

Lol bragging about valedictorian and playing all sports with his graduation class of 21.

And yes, being made fun of behind your back is still being made fun of.

Bottom line, is you know I'm right, and as usual you think you're some damn special case when you're really not.


p.s. I bet you never cried as a kid either right? Probably never got a bruise before? I bet you haven't ever even taken a shit! Your food is probably transformed into a sweet smelling perfume rather than shit.

I bet you've never lost an argument. I bet you've never said you were wrong

[chook]

I bet you've never lost an argument. I bet you've never said you were wrong

I bet that you were never white!

[cmac]

p.s. I bet you never cried as a kid either right? Probably never got a bruise before? I bet you haven't ever even taken a shit! Your food is probably transformed into a sweet smelling perfume rather than shit.

yeah pretty much. see, i have this halo thing above my head, and i can't quite figure out how it got there. odd really.

[Inferia]

White privilege is just a kind of privilege, and not the only kind of privilege. Since we're talking about race, then I didn't venture into the privilege that comes with wealth, or having good health. Yes, if you move to another country, then it may not benefit you to be white, but we're not talking about another country, we're talking about the US.

http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/denia...-bias-cambridge

[Black Bear]

...your kind of food in the supermarket...

I'm being discriminated against here in Lubbock County. I have to drive at least 40 minutes to find the nearest store that sells my comestibles on both my German and Irish sides.

I've heard comments such as don't you think Mexicans are racist? Ultimately that's not the point, I personally don't think people should (or at least aim to try) justify their actions and attitudes based on the ignorance of another group of people.

I understand your point here, but you also make another point. Growing up I always heard racism talked about like it was a disease only white people could get. Then I grew up and went to college. Fuck that. If you want to generalize--a scary proposition, I know--I find whites to be the least racist. I think it is mainly because the media and affirmative action and all the other crap has been trying for years to guilt us into feeling bad. Fuck that. I personally grew up in BFE, but a co-worker of mine was a white boy growing up in a black neighborhood. Yeah, like the song. A nine year old trying to protect a 7 and a 5 year old brother from teenagers. To this day his only comment is "Fuck those black mother fuckers." From what he went through I cannot blame him.

As far as profiling goes, I know about that, too. If you sat me on a harley I would fit right in with most biker gangs. I simply like my beard, and I like it to be the opposite of my head, which looks like a cue-ball. When people first see me they are pretty damned reserved to say the least. Now you are probably thinking that my situation is different from skin color, and I'll agree with you: I choose to look the way I do. But I've been profiled before. Is it fun? No, it isn't. Personally I hate cops, but you don't yell and scream at them, no mater how big the fucking chip on their shoulder is.

As far as white privilege, I never really felt very privileged because I was white. I worked to get where I am today. Did I do it all myself? Hell no, but I didn't lay around and expect it to be handed to me either. I busted my ass in school to get good grades to earn my scholarships. My family did without so we could participate in 4-H. I didn't have a game console till I went to college and I bought a sega genesis. My vehicles were used oil-field trucks. I was able to get them not cause I'm white, but because my old man worked his ass off doing four fucking jobs, and one of those jobs was in the oil-field. (Yeah, I freely admit I'll never be the man my dad is, but then neither will anyone else. They just don't make 'em like my old man anymore. He's the greatest god-damn man I've ever met. That's not bragging, just the facts.)

Now I know someone will probably try to misquote me, and that's fine. But the only racism I see in THIS case is coming from the black community.

[impala454]

I bet you've never lost an argument. I bet you've never said you were wrong

You would be wrong about that.

[impala454]

yeah pretty much. see, i have this halo thing above my head, and i can't quite figure out how it got there. odd really.

only shows up in the mirror though doesn't it