Does more history knowledge make you more conservative? Options

[Hartmann]

It's a pretty straightforward question.

My opinion is that it does in some way, as the liberal ideal is utopianism and an understanding of history makes it all the more clear that man is an imperfect thing and not able to be made perfect

Thoughts?

[Mommy]

Very interesting question. Everyone I have met that are huge history buffs are conservative.

[Seeker]

I think being a student of History makes you Libertarian.

[Hartmann]

I think being a student of History makes you Libertarian.

Which is considered a conservative stance as personal freedom is not so much of a core of liberal thought anymore.

[Seeker]

Which is considered a conservative stance as personal freedom is not so much of a core of liberal thought anymore.

it's not a core of conservative thought either

[Mommy]

haha i just remembered that Zach has a history degree i think. he's liberal

[Hartmann]

it's not a core of conservative thought either

True, which is why I am not either of those things

[blaarg]

Which is considered a conservative stance as personal freedom is not so much of a core of liberal thought anymore.

huh?

yeah because I guess conservatives would agree with gay marriage and non-intrusive surveillance methods (*cough cough* wiretapping) because that is what the "stay out of people's business" part of libertarianism is.

No doubt there are uber traditional conservative principles in libertarianism (especially having small government), but the fact is present day conservatives have little to no resemblance to traditional conservatism.

oh yeah and to answer the topic question:

no.

[Melanie]

Yeah, I'm going to have to say No to this question as well.

Both Zach and I have History degrees, and I know we are not the exception to this. One could say that a student of political science is also a history student, then this original argument would fail. You can't generalize people by what they study. Like, "education majors are just looking for husbands"

This is about as odd of a question as, "Is your dog conservative (based on if the dog chases cars)?"

[Hartmann]

huh?

yeah because I guess conservatives would agree with gay marriage and non-intrusive surveillance methods (*cough cough* wiretapping) because that is what the "stay out of people's business" part of libertarianism is.

No doubt there are uber traditional conservative principles in libertarianism (especially having small government), but the fact is present day conservatives have little to no resemblance to traditional conservatism.

oh yeah and to answer the topic question:

no.

I think it's the far right who really want the intrusive searching. If you sit down and talk to your everyday conservative, they're not going to like the government going through their harddrive or viewing them on camera.

Libertarianism is conservative from the point of view of business and government regulation for sure, I just think the original idea of conservatism was not government control and surveillance but "do what you will" instead.

[Mommy]

I wouldn't call a poli sci student a history student at all....especially in respect to this question

One studies the government (presumably of the U.S.) and the other studies the history of the world.

[Hartmann]

This is about as odd of a question as, "Is your dog conservative (based on if the dog chases cars)?"

Odd? I think it's a very valid question as everything we do/learn has an impact on how we think.

Yeah, I'm going to have to say No to this question as well.

Both Zach and I have History degrees, and I know we are not the exception to this. One could say that a student of political science is also a history student, then this original argument would fail. You can't generalize people by what they study. Like, "education majors are just looking for husbands"

It's not about studying, it's about knowledge. Having a history degree is one thing (especially if it's taught with a liberal slant) but reading history books and taking interest in history is a totally different thing, though they can be related.

I am not generalizing the way you are suggesting, I am saying that general knowledge in history should make one aware of the non-utopia reality in the world, which is an idea that most liberals disavow (you can read threads from this board for proof). We can make the world better but we can never make it perfect is what history should make obvious.

[blaarg]

I think it's the far right who really want the intrusive searching. If you sit down and talk to your everyday conservative, they're not going to like the government going through their harddrive or viewing them on camera.

So it's just the "far right" that are getting bills like this to pass in Congress? I agree, if you sit down to talk to your average everyday conservative they would think that all this surveillance (i.e. "government going through their harddrive or viewing them on camera") is bullshit. That just shows how out of touch the conservative voters are with their representatives (and how the neo-conservatives have hijacked the party).

[blaarg]

I've always held the belief that there are two factions in America: conservatives and the educated.

[Hartmann]

So it's just the "far right" that are getting bills like this to pass in Congress? I agree, if you sit down to talk to your average everyday conservative they would think that all this surveillance (i.e. "government going through their harddrive or viewing them on camera") is bullshit. That just shows how out of touch the conservative voters are with their representatives (and how the neo-conservatives have hijacked the party).

There are no arguments from me. I think that in general (for both conservatives and liberals) the house and congress need to be cleaned out. There are folks in these positions that are simply going along to go along and don't take any interest in their party nor their constituents. This is definitely where I think we could improve as a nation, getting Congress back to where it was originally, representing the people.

[Hartmann]

I've always held the belief that there are two factions in America: conservatives and the educated.

Now that's generalization.

I think people can have conservative views and not be republicans or purely conservative. I don't think the "educated" topic really exists because there are numerous people who are educated and definitely not liberal thinkers and there uneducated people who are extremely liberal.

[impala454]

haha i just remembered that Zach has a history degree i think. he's liberal

Not intended as a knock on Zach at all, but a bachelor's history degree doesn't necessarily mean you're a history buff. I think the type he was talking about people who study it in their free time and it's like a hobby to them. Even that in mind though, I don't really think that particular type of person will think any certain way. If they're a conservative person they might use history to back them up, or if they're liberal they might think they can use it to avoid "repeating history".

And saying a conservative is different because of their views on gay marriage is getting old. One issue does not make an entire group of people's ideals up. Many conservatives' personal views are that gay marriage is wrong. It's hard to have two fundamental beliefs that are completely opposite.

Also IMHO Libertarians are the extreme in personal freedom. Nowadays it's almost bordering on anarchism.

Modern day conservatives in general may have a couple of issues, but still definitely hold true to personal freedom & small government.

[impala454]

I've always held the belief that there are two factions in America: conservatives and the educated smug assholes who think they can fix everything by throwing more taxpayer money at it.

fixed

[Seeker]

I've always held the belief that there are two factions in America: conservatives and the educated.

liberals aren't educated either

[Melanie]

Wouldn't you have to have a general liking for history in order to spend that much time studying? I'm not talking for Zach, but for myself. I read those history books and am an avid history lover.

And Poli Sci definitely must study history and the history of politics for our degrees. Well over half of my poli sci classes were history oriented. Hell, we study the history of the political scheme in certain districts, you must know the history of a district in order to figure how the votes will swing.l

[cmac]

i think smarter people are more liberal.
with the exception of texas.
yes, i know that's a very blanket statement.

[Seeker]

I've always held the belief that there are two factions in America: liberals smug assholes who think they can fix everything by throwing more taxpayer money at it and conservatives smug assholes who think they can fix everything by launching a missile at it.

fixed

fixed it for you impala

[impala454]

haha, hey man a missle can fix a lot

[Hartmann]

Wouldn't you have to have a general liking for history in order to spend that much time studying? I'm not talking for Zach, but for myself. I read those history books and am an avid history lover.

And Poli Sci definitely must study history and the history of politics for our degrees. Well over half of my poli sci classes were history oriented. Hell, we study the history of the political scheme in certain districts, you must know the history of a district in order to figure how the votes will swing.l

Political Science is the study of just that, political science and you study accordingly.

I am talking about history in general (world history, U.S. history, roman history, etc.).

I have a love of history and read every history book I can get my hands on (the people in half price books know me by name) but I have no interest in ever getting a degree in it. I enjoy reading the facts from books and opinions from generals and would probably do well in a history class in college, I just don't want it to be my career or my degree.

[impala454]

I think in general something that is a hobby will be studied far more than something that is a school requirement or job. I know I sure don't rush home from work and start coding up VoIP projects for fun.

[Mommy]

I still see very little relation between history and political science. IF ANYTHING, political science is a very small portion of history + a study of the philosophical theories. Political science can be very theoretical at times, whereas history is not.

[Psykopath]

haha i just remembered that Zach has a history degree i think. he's liberal

WTF?!
Don't label me. I'm not liberal. I'm not conservative. I'm not any motherfucking label.


That being said, the TTU History department had both admitted communists and admitted neo-(almost)fascists.


::EDIT::
Wow, those of you trying to think you understand both History degrees and Poli Sci degrees, without ever studying the fields, are way off the mark.
I'll add more when I get back.

This post has been edited by Psykopath: May 7 2008, 01:01 PM

[impala454]

I had a history teacher in high school who was dead serious in telling us his opinion that the US should take over canada & mexico and isolate ourselves from the rest of the world.

[Hartmann]

WTF?!
Don't label me. I'm not liberal. I'm not conservative. I'm not any motherfucking label.
That being said, the TTU History department had both admitted communists and admitted neo-(almost)fascists.
::EDIT::
Wow, those of you trying to think you understand both History degrees and Poli Sci degrees, without ever studying the fields, are way off the mark.
I'll add more when I get back.

You're right, I don't know what's involved in a history degree. I know there is a lot of paper writing and research, but that's about all I know. Oh, and I know that every single friend of mine who received a History degree went to law school.

[Psykopath]

History degree classes I took involved everything from the obvious (research, reading, writing papers) to the "WTF THIS IS HISTORY!?!?" (statistical analysis, geographical analysis, warfare/strategy, risk analysis).

But yes, it is a great "prep" degree for law school. 'Tis also my plan now.

[chook]

The more I know, the more I think politicians are full of shit. I wouldn't call myself liberal, and I lean slighty right of left.

The smug asshole comments pretty much summed it up.

[Hartmann]

History degree classes I took involved everything from the obvious (research, reading, writing papers) to the "WTF THIS IS HISTORY!?!?" (statistical analysis, geographical analysis, warfare/strategy, risk analysis).

But yes, it is a great "prep" degree for law school. 'Tis also my plan now.

Then I kind of knew that (as it makes sense, to me at least).

But, then again, I'm a nerd and love history.

[False Dude]

the nonutopian world of the past just makes it all that better to work towards for the future (and i believe there have been small bursts of it around before). is the goal to make the world a utopia? no cant really be done. but that is far from just giving up and ceasing to care. and i disagree with the question

- testm0

[Hartmann]

the nonutopian world of the past just makes it all that better to work towards for the future. and i disagree with the question

- testm0

Even though "utopia" is unattainable?

I am not suggesting that we should stop trying, I'm just stating that history should make one aware that it is not possible to reach utopia through government intervention (as it's been tried.... hundreds, even thousands of times)

[False Dude]

yeah doesnt mean to stop living for your ideals and what you believe in. thatd be silly and sad. and in the meantime you help as many people as you reach and yourself

[Hartmann]

yeah doesnt mean to stop living for your ideals and what you believe in. thatd be silly and sad. and in the meantime you help as many people as you reach and yourself

I'm in agreement with that sentiment, but I think it's the method in which one helps.

[impala454]

yeah doesnt mean to stop living for your ideals and what you believe in. thatd be silly and sad. and in the meantime you help as many people as you reach and yourself

nobody said they'd stop living for their ideals. you just seem to have this notion of what everyone's ideals should be.

[Testm0nkey]

yes because the world we live in would be a much better place if helping others was a common ideal!

[FORSAKENR320]

yes because the world we live in would be a much better place if helping others was a common ideal!

by using the Cathryn agenda.

thats what impala is implying





..... impala cat is implying...


i just woke up.

[chook]

yes because the world we live in would be a much better place if helping others was a common ideal!

It depends what you think would help others.