The ethics/legality of leeching WiFi Options

[Hartmann]

I was at IAH yesterday and had a meeting at the President's Club, Continental's club for people who pay for it, and noticed a man outside on the floor, using the club's "free" WiFi connection.

The wireless connection inside of the club is fairly good but to access it outside of the club you have to be sitting right by the door.

What are your thoughts on doing this? I think it's somewhat sleazy as I pay a decent amount of money to access the club and use its services, including the WiFi, why should someone be allowed to essentially leech the signal?

I've made my case to Continental to add password protection to the network but they still have not. I know that most people say "well the network is open so it's fair game" but I see that as a cop out, as you wouldn't take something from a neighbor's yard because it was "out in the open".

Thoughts?

[theIncredibleEdi...]

Personally, I think if it's open, it's fair game.

If an individual or a business doesn't want it that way, and aren't willing to take the few minutes to set up an encryption, then that's their own stupidity.

[cmac]

yea. open = fair game.
i keep my network open at home, just so people can use it.
share the love.

[impala454]

I know that most people say "well the network is open so it's fair game" but I see that as a cop out, as you wouldn't take something from a neighbor's yard because it was "out in the open".

Thoughts?

I agree in general, although I don't feel much pain for the airlines "losing" any money with its $9 internet access.

As far as home networks, IMHO it is stealing to get on your neighbor's wifi. Whether you're just surfing the web or constantly pegging the connection w/downloads, you are using up a portion of their bandwidth. And yeah, having something unlocked does not mean it's fair game.

[pebkac]

Agreed.

In a semi-unrelated note, did anyone see this?

Interesting concept.

[Spectatrix]

I don't think it's ethical to be stealing WiFi, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for either individuals or businesses that leave their networks open and end up having their bandwidth hogged.

[Hartmann]

I agree in general, although I don't feel much pain for the airlines "losing" any money with its $9 internet access.

As far as home networks, IMHO it is stealing to get on your neighbor's wifi. Whether you're just surfing the web or constantly pegging the connection w/downloads, you are using up a portion of their bandwidth. And yeah, having something unlocked does not mean it's fair game.

Exactly. I have no problem with airlines losing money but I pay to access the club and use one of its features, WiFi. If people don't want to pay for the club they can use a EVDO card or something of the sort and get internet access.

I do feel that airports should have free WiFi throughout but that's more the airport than the airlines. Charlotte has decent wireless access and Denver has multiple hotspots but I still choose my President's Club signal when I'm in the club.

The airports see the T-Mobile access as a money maker yet I see very few people using it.

[Hartmann]

I don't think it's ethical to be stealing WiFi, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for either individuals or businesses that leave their networks open and end up having their bandwidth hogged.

Continental's response to me as to why they leave their network open is that they want to make it convenient for their members to access the internet (turn on your computer and go).

[cmac]

i wish you could use the iPhone bluetooth to connect to the edge network.

[Mommy]

I see both sides. When I lived in Austin, I didn't have the money to pay for internet and cable because my rent was expensive. I leached internet from one of my neighbors. It was mighty nice because I love my internet, but at the same time, I don't think people should go out looking for it. If they have it in home, then ok....thats one thing. The reason I say this is because if the neighbor gets mad, they can simply knock on a few doors to find out who is using it and ask them to stop.

[theIncredibleEdi...]

I am sorry, but if you leave your network open, whether you're a business or an individual you're just looking to be leeched off of.


If you owned a store, would you just leave it unattended and expect to MAKE MONEY? No, you would be robbed.
It's just responsibility...you can't control other peoples' actions, so you control what factors YOU CAN.


I don't want my neighbors using my connection that I pay for, therefore I lock my shit down.

As for Continental's response...it's not that much more work to just type in a password.


EDIT: on a somewhat similar note, I hear that Starbucks is ditching T-mobile's WiFi services and going with AT&T. I really like this, because I have AT&T DSL Pro, which means I get to use AT&T Wifi (in places like McDonalds and Barnes & Noble) for free, so this will expand where I can use free WiFi at. Cus we know how damn ubiquitous Starbucks is.

[Spectatrix]

If you owned a store, would you just leave it unattended and expect to MAKE MONEY? No, you would be robbed.
It's just responsibility...you can't control other peoples' actions, so you control what factors YOU CAN.
I don't want my neighbors using my connection that I pay for, therefore I lock my shit down.

True, but by the same token the door being unlocked doesn't mean it's right or acceptable to rob the place.

About half of the wireless networks I can see at home leave them unlocked. I think it's retardedly funny. I also don't want my neighbors using my connection, so it's locked down and the SSID isn't broadcast. My boyfriend goes a step further with his network, adding MAC addy filtering.

EDIT: on a somewhat similar note, I hear that Starbucks is ditching T-mobile's WiFi services and going with AT&T. I really like this, because I have AT&T DSL Pro, which means I get to use AT&T Wifi (in places like McDonalds and Barnes & Noble) for free, so this will expand where I can use free WiFi at. Cus we know how damn ubiquitous Starbucks is.

I'd rather go to my usual locally-owned coffee shop with better atmosphere, better drinks, and completely free WiFi.

[Epic]

i'd just ask someone working in the "captain's club" to make the guy move, as he is ruining the view of all the peons

[theIncredibleEdi...]

True, but by the same token the door being unlocked doesn't mean it's right or acceptable to rob the place.

Well, I didn't necessarily say leave the door unlocked...because Texas law says you have to leave doors unlocked during business hours.....I was saying you wouldn't open up the store and just leave and let people come in and take things and have an honor system (pay for what you take, because its the moral thing to do). The same thing with your WiFi....it's not smart to bring it up, and leave it open for anyone to do with as they please. It's just not smart....as you never know who is on the other end doing God knows what.
Does that make a bit more sense?


And yeah, I normally do try to go to the mom & pop coffee shops, but they're not always available in every area, and not all of them offer WiFi. So, this way im almost guaranteed to have a place.

[Hartmann]

i'd just ask someone working in the "captain's club" to make the guy move, as he is ruining the view of all the peons

Well he doesn't ruin my view as there is a window on the third floor that allows me to look down and feel like God.

He has every right to sit there as it's inside of the airport and he could just say he was waiting for a flight.

[theIncredibleEdi...]

Well he doesn't ruin my view as there is a window on the third floor that allows me to look down and feel like God.

He has every right to sit there as it's inside of the airport and he could just say he was waiting for a flight.

Although if hes sitting right by the door, it's a potential safety risk. Ya know....I watch cartoons...end up smashed against the wall by the door.

[impala454]

Well, I didn't necessarily say leave the door unlocked...because Texas law says you have to leave doors unlocked during business hours.....I was saying you wouldn't open up the store and just leave and let people come in and take things and have an honor system (pay for what you take, because its the moral thing to do). The same thing with your WiFi....it's not smart to bring it up, and leave it open for anyone to do with as they please. It's just not smart....as you never know who is on the other end doing God knows what.
Does that make a bit more sense?

But we're not talking about what's smart for the owner of the wifi router. We're talking about the ethics/legality of the person stealing the wifi. I think we can all agree it's stupid to leave your network open.

[theIncredibleEdi...]

Well, with free Wifi becoming more ubiquitous....the ethics of it begins to blur.

But in this situation, no, it's probably not very ethical of this guy to use the WiFi of the Captains Club or whatever its called.

But I dont think most people think about the ethics of their actions on a regular basis. Especially when it comes to 'free.'

[Spectatrix]

Well, I didn't necessarily say leave the door unlocked...

You know what I meant. Same thing you did... store unattended, no security, blah blah blah...

But I dont think most people think about the ethics of their actions on a regular basis. Especially when it comes to 'free.'

This I would definitely agree with.

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: Feb 12 2008, 11:08 AM

[blaarg]

EDIT: on a somewhat similar note, I hear that Starbucks is ditching T-mobile's WiFi services and going with AT&T. I really like this, because I have AT&T DSL Pro, which means I get to use AT&T Wifi (in places like McDonalds and Barnes & Noble) for free, so this will expand where I can use free WiFi at. Cus we know how damn ubiquitous Starbucks is.

To use the AT&T wireless you have to have a Starbucks credit/debit card, and you get the first two hours free.

I don't know if it is two hours a day or two hours per sitting (because what would keep you from getting up going across the street and coming back).

Here is an article I read:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/starbucks_announces_free_wifi

[Spectatrix]

To use the AT&T wireless you have to have a Starbucks credit/debit card, and you get the first two hours free.

I don't know if it is two hours a day or two hours per sitting (because what would keep you from getting up going across the street and coming back).

Here is an article I read:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/starbucks_announces_free_wifi

If you read further in that article, you'll see that it's free to AT&T internet customers.

[blaarg]

If you read further in that article, you'll see that it's free to AT&T internet customers.

they added that since I read it last...

[theIncredibleEdi...]

If you read further in that article, you'll see that it's free to AT&T internet customers.

At least the upper tier DSL users....you have to pay extra for AT&T WiFi usage with the DSL Basic

[Spectatrix]

Well I refuse to get DSL from AT&T after the horrible experiences I had with SBC, so it's kind of a moot point for me.

[theIncredibleEdi...]

I havent had a bad experience with them....I just REFUSE to pay Comcast's outrageous prices. 60 bucks a month almost for basic digital cable? FUCK YOU.

[Spectatrix]

My main bad experience with SBC was from when we moved. Cut off our phone at the old apartment a week early, then were 3+ weeks without internet at the new place. They charged us for that time too, until I called and complained. Got a credit back for the time without service, plus additional credit for the whole hassle. They still had the whole one-year contract thing then too. Once our contract was up, we switched immediately to Comcast.

Now in Austin, I use Grande Communications. It's $55/month for 8Mbps internet and basic cable (truly basic, not the extended basic). The same internet plus 300-channel digital cable would be nearly $100.

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: Feb 12 2008, 12:19 PM

[theIncredibleEdi...]

I just like paying 24.99 a month for internet....no contract.

I would like to add some kinda expanded TV services...but I dunno if I am really home enough to justify the price.

But anyway....

leeching WiFi is bad!! bad bad bad! Unethical! Booo! (Dont wanna get bitched at for going off-topic)

[cmac]

how much does leaching really slow bandwidth?

[Hartmann]

how much does leaching really slow bandwidth?

I personally don't care about how much bandwidth it uses as that does not affect the ethics behind it. Then again, even if the bandwidth usage of a single person is small what if 10-20 people are using it? At what point then does it become "wrong"?

The real issue in my mind is not the network but the data being passed through it.

The network is named "Continental President's Club" so the people accessing it know what it's for.

[theIncredibleEdi...]

I personally don't care about how much bandwidth it uses as that does not affect the ethics behind it. Then again, even if the bandwidth usage of a single person is small what if 10-20 people are using it? At what point then does it become "wrong"?

The real issue in my mind is not the network but the data being passed through it.

The network is named "Continental President's Club" so the people accessing it know what it's for.

yeah, but even people who are allowed and supposed to be using it can be using it for suspect purposes.

You dont have to be a leacher to do wrong.

[Testm0nkey]

Like everyones said if you dont set up a password then you cant really complain. I had an open network where I used to live and figured others were using it but their "stealing" was never in my face. until someone moved into the rear apartment and had to gall to thank me for having internet so they didnt have to pay for it...

i quickly set up a password. in situations where its just in your face it makes a nonissue a big one

[pebkac]

If Continental isn't doing anything about the wifi theft, it obviously isn't that big a problem to them. Sure it's probably unethical, but I would argue that if Continental doesn't care or have a problem with it, neither should you.

[FORSAKENR320]

If Continental isn't doing anything about the wifi theft, it obviously isn't that big a problem to them. Sure it's probably unethical, but I would argue that if Continental doesn't care or have a problem with it, neither should you.

"if your wife doesn't have a problem with you cheating on her, then niether should you"

[pebkac]

"if your wife doesn't have a problem with you cheating on her, then niether should you"

Hey!

I'd agree with that one too...

[Mommy]

only cuz youll never have a wife, homo

[schwab]

im leeching internet right now, mainly because im inbetween internet service providers (ditched one, trying to find a decent other one). i have a problem doing this, but I need internet right now. Its their fault for leaving it open, if they didnt, I probably would put more effort into getting my internet back up.

As far as in the airport, I have no problem. I feel it should be a free service, ethically, it is wrong, but it isnt something airports should charge for since in our ticket prices we already pay a airport usage tax. That should include internet, along with electricity and bathrooms.

[impala454]

im leeching internet right now, mainly because im inbetween internet service providers (ditched one, trying to find a decent other one). i have a problem doing this, but I need internet right now. Its their fault for leaving it open, if they didnt, I probably would put more effort into getting my internet back up.

This is a really interesting view... you have a problem with it, but then blame the person for leaving it open (even though 9 times out of 10 it's due to ignorance, not negligence).

And to everyone:
How about this... what if someone has a password on their network, but you know easily how to get in anyways? Does that change anything? I don't see that it does. It is not many people's intention to pay for a service, and then let someone they don't know use that service for free. If you think the person you're leeching internet service from doesn't have a problem with it, then why not attach a splitter to their cable TV and run it over to your house? I'm sure they wouldn't mind right?

[James]

Solution:

Line the interior walls of the club with that.

[schwab]

This is a really interesting view... you have a problem with it, but then blame the person for leaving it open (even though 9 times out of 10 it's due to ignorance, not negligence).

And to everyone:
How about this... what if someone has a password on their network, but you know easily how to get in anyways? Does that change anything? I don't see that it does. It is not many people's intention to pay for a service, and then let someone they don't know use that service for free. If you think the person you're leeching internet service from doesn't have a problem with it, then why not attach a splitter to their cable TV and run it over to your house? I'm sure they wouldn't mind right?

The few people I do know that leave their network open, do not mind if people use it. They leave it open just so if someone needs it they can have it. I have never tried to get into someones when it has password, nor would I try. If they have a password, it obviously means that they do not want you to use it. I lock mine, because I dont want other people to take it, that is why it comes with the security. If someone doesnt lock it, it is their own damn fault for not locking it, it does not take much to do, and it is not hard at all. I do not plan on leeching for extended periods of time, it is a temporary thing until I get my internet back and running. The cable point is ridiculous, and you know it. First you would be trespassing as you would have to go on their property to get the cable, and honestly, their "internet" is free flowing over my property area, and if its in my area, I have the right to access it, even if I do not feel that its right or not.

[Spectatrix]

You are making use of their property (router, modem, etc.) without their permission. That's not equivalent to trespassing? If you think they're intentionally leaving it open, why not go around to your neighbors and ask "hey, is xyz network yours? I'm temporarily without internet; do you mind if I use your access in the interim?" If they react hostilely, you could gently suggest they lock down their network to prevent unauthorized access. Like Impala said, it might be open out of ignorance, not negligence.

[impala454]

The cable point is ridiculous, and you know it. First you would be trespassing as you would have to go on their property to get the cable, and honestly, their "internet" is free flowing over my property area, and if its in my area, I have the right to access it, even if I do not feel that its right or not.

Not any more ridiculous than your explanations why its ok to steal wifi. If the people you know are so open about someone using their wifi, why would they care if someone stole their cable TV? The internet is most definitely not "free flowing". Someone is paying for it, and that someone isn't you. If people don't mind you taking their wifi, then why not knock on a few doors and find out whose it is and asking them. I'm sure they'll warm up to you quickly and say "sure! you can use my wifi for free!".

bah, didn't read Christine's post so it sounds a little redundant

[Spectatrix]

Haha, beat ya to it!