Kerry endorses Obama Options

[Spectatrix]

For better or worse... hopefully this'll give Obama a boost over Clinton.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22590831/

[woody]

fuckin kerry is just gonna fuck up obama with that

[theIncredibleEdi...]

Boo! I dont like Obama....the Republicans are hoping he will win it, because they will steamroll his ass.

[Spectatrix]

Actually, I think Obama has been doing quite well in the head-to-head matchup polls...

[Melanie]

Republicans hope for Hillary where Democrats hope for Thompson... because he's somewhat of a deadfish. We'll see though.

I'm excited for March 4th

[Hartmann]

Republicans hope for Hillary where Democrats hope for Thompson... because he's somewhat of a deadfish. We'll see though.

I'm excited for March 4th

No. Smart Republicans hope for Obama because if he does win there won't be such a large agenda. Hillary's agenda along with a Democratic Congress could end in very bad things.

Universal (Socialistic) Healthcare, here we come.

[Spectatrix]

If Hillary wins the nom, my vote for the Republican candidate is almost 100% assured. Unless it's Huckabee. Then our country is screwed.

[Hartmann]

My only problem with Obama is his call for us to be "non-divisive". To be non-divisive, one of the divisive parties has to give up his/her values so that they conform to the other party's. I doubt Obama is going to give up his values.

[Mommy]

No. Smart Republicans hope for Obama because if he does win there won't be such a large agenda. Hillary's agenda along with a Democratic Congress could end in very bad things.

Universal (Socialistic) Healthcare, here we come.

I dont see anything wrong with Universal Healthcare... her plan seems to cover a lot of bases.

[Psykopath]

There is NOTHING wrong with socialized healthcare.

The only thing "wrong" with it is the incorrect spin placed on it and scare tactics utilized by opponents (tactics started by pharm companies, medical corporations, and doctors who enjoy ripping out a patient's asshole with bills).

YES, doctors make less under such a system. The make a mid-range six-figure salary. Ohhhhhhhh, the horror, they'll STARVE!!!

lolz

[Mommy]

All I know is that our healthcare is ridiculously overpriced. I dont know if Ive said this before but I went to the hospital in August because I had 6 kidney stones. I was in the ER for at most 3 hours... left with a bill that was over $7k. FUCKING STUPID. something has to be done.

[Psykopath]

...I foresee spinning off another healthcare thread...

[woody]

don't pay the bill a la el paso style

[Spectatrix]

There is NOTHING wrong with socialized healthcare.

Yeah there is. Our government can't even manage school systems properly. Why should I trust them to manage my healthcare? They'll just layer it with even more bureaucracy, making it more expensive than it already is. Fuck that!

That having been said, the HMO system is largely FUCKED UP and bloated and much more expensive than it needs to be.

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: Jan 10 2008, 03:09 PM

[woody]

i agree with spec on this one

people bitch how the gov't runs things and they want it to run a health care system?

[Hartmann]

There is NOTHING wrong with socialized healthcare.

The only thing "wrong" with it is the incorrect spin placed on it and scare tactics utilized by opponents (tactics started by pharm companies, medical corporations, and doctors who enjoy ripping out a patient's asshole with bills).

YES, doctors make less under such a system. The make a mid-range six-figure salary. Ohhhhhhhh, the horror, they'll STARVE!!!

lolz

There are several issues with universal healthcare. Just because you don't think they are issues does not make them non-issues.

Your last sentence actually points out a flaw in the system and the move to socialism. Doctors provide a needed service and therefore can make more money than other people. They are also more skilled than, say, a computer programmer. Why should they not make six figures? You make it sound like the motivation for every doctor is money, which I guess for some, it is. However, spending 7+ in school (with lots of debt), is a lot of work to make more money. If anything, we should be trying to keep doctors here in the states as there is an overwhelming number of people getting their training here and then moving overseas.

My main problems with universal healthcare however, are these:

1. Not everyone wants healthcare. There are a good number of Americans who have no interest in getting health insurance, not even if it was mandatory. Why should those people pay into something that they will never use (this same concept can be used for those who don't want social security)? Also, will the government fine these people for not paying in? Hillary's language is pretty much "mandatory" healthcare while Obama's is more fuzzy.

2. The main problem isn't the healthcare system, the periphery is. The insurance and drug companies are the problem. Ever since 1997 when it became legal to advertise prescription drugs on television and billboards we have seen an increase in the cost of healthcare. The insurance companies saw potential and have stuck with it and they've ignored preventive care.

3. People who need/want healthcare can get it for an inexpensive price tag, the problem is, they don't do it. There are lots of options for less expensive, good healthcare. I priced self-paid insurance for me this morning, $80/month with the benefits of everything I have at work right now.

4. It is the first true step to socialism. We already have government intervention in other areas, now we're getting government intervention with possible mandatory participation. No thanks.

5. Taxes. Anyone who does not think we will see a minor and even significant tax increase is sorely mistaken. Utopias of healthcare for everyone don't come cheap, just ask a Canadian, they pay nearly 50% of their income away in taxes, leading to retirement problems later on. Yeah, sure, when they're 80 they'll still have access to a hospital for "free" but they will also still be working.

6. Waste. There is a lot of waste associated with universal healthcare. Again, ask a Canadian. Why? Well there is no incentive to produce anything efficiently or cheaply because it is government funds being used to pay for it.

Anyway, those are my issues with universal healthcare. I don't deny there is a healthcare problem in the U.S. I just think there are other ways to affectively change it for the better.

[Hartmann]

Yeah there is. Our government can't even manage school systems properly. Why should I trust them to manage my healthcare? They'll just layer it with even more bureaucracy, making it more expensive than it already is. Fuck that!

That having been said, the HMO system is largely FUCKED UP and bloated and much more expensive than it needs to be.

You said it a lot more succinctly than I did. And yes, the HMO system is a mess (which is why I think everyone should use a PPO if they can).

[Oasis]

Is it true that Obama smokes cigarettes?

[impala454]

Not sure how John Kerry's endorsement makes any difference but ok.

[Testm0nkey]

ive never known anyone who didnt want health care/health insurance unless you count super uneducated people that also dont believe in services they pay into like the police and fire department. they dont care until their leg is broke, baby is sick or their house is burning down. and i think it SHOULD be mandatory especially for families. i dont want a stupid parent not wanting to pay in thus not looking out for their childrens health which would happen all the time

[impala454]

ive never known anyone who didnt want health care/health insurance unless you count super uneducated people that also dont believe in services they pay into like the police and fire department. they dont care until their leg is broke, baby is sick or their house is burning down. and i think it SHOULD be mandatory especially for families. i dont want a stupid parent not wanting to pay in thus not looking out for their childrens health which would happen all the time

Healthcare is privatized right now, so what happens when the poor family with no insurance breaks their leg? They go to the crap hospital ER nearby and get treatment, on my dime (taxes). So if we went to communist healthcare (hillary), now everybody gets treatment on my dime. So who are we really bailing out here? Large corporate giants (and even small businesses) who currently pay for their employees health insurance like they should. You're taking a privately paid for benefit and burdening the taxpayer's money with its costs. Not to mention removing the choice of doctors, which lowers healthcare quality in general (why should a doctor care how good his services are if you're forced to see him by the govt?). Very stupid idea IMHO.

[FORSAKENR320]

they just better make sure no fucking wetbacks can benifit from it. i'm tired of illegals mooching shit. don't deport them, shoot at them till they leave voluntarily

fuck those wetback fucks

[impala454]

lol

[Psykopath]

Ah yes, Reaganistic fears: "The commies are coming! Oh noes oh noes!"

1. Not everyone wants healthcare. There are a good number of Americans who have no interest in getting health insurance, not even if it was mandatory. Why should those people pay into something that they will never use (this same concept can be used for those who don't want social security)? Also, will the government fine these people for not paying in? Hillary's language is pretty much "mandatory" healthcare while Obama's is more fuzzy.

OMG....are you actually trying to be serious with this statement?!?!?!?!?!?
I almost don't want to touch this one, because it's so hilariously wrong, for lack of a better term.
When someone gets hit by a car, finds out they have cancer at a routine check up, gets severe food poisoning, etc. etc. etc., do you think they would like a little healthcare then?
Nah, you're right....fuck it. Who needs healthcare?

2. The main problem isn't the healthcare system, the periphery is. The insurance and drug companies are the problem. Ever since 1997 when it became legal to advertise prescription drugs on television and billboards we have seen an increase in the cost of healthcare. The insurance companies saw potential and have stuck with it and they've ignored preventive care.

I agree with the bold part. Pharm and insurance companies care little if nothing for people anymore. Lightly treat during, instead of preventing. =(

3. People who need/want healthcare can get it for an inexpensive price tag, the problem is, they don't do it. There are lots of options for less expensive, good healthcare. I priced self-paid insurance for me this morning, $80/month with the benefits of everything I have at work right now.

Inexpensive for certain cases, ridiculous in others. It depends on a myriad of factors to qualify for "inexpensive" healthcare, and much of the language to work ones way through to see if you qualify is extremely confusing (again, fuck you insurance companies).

4. It is the first true step to socialism. We already have government intervention in other areas, now we're getting government intervention with possible mandatory participation. No thanks.

So Universal Healthcare = what? Stalin?
haha, wow.
Let's eliminate ALL socialsm in the US. No fire, police, libraries, museums, public schools, parks, etc. etc. etc.

5. Taxes. Anyone who does not think we will see a minor and even significant tax increase is sorely mistaken. Utopias of healthcare for everyone don't come cheap, just ask a Canadian, they pay nearly 50% of their income away in taxes, leading to retirement problems later on. Yeah, sure, when they're 80 they'll still have access to a hospital for "free" but they will also still be working.

Yep, taxes would increase...never said they wouldn't. (Unless they found some magical way to balance/correct the budget without all the wasteful spending of today.)
I think figures are being exaggerated though (on both sides of the argument) as far as actual tax amounts vs. income and all that.



From here it looks like roughly 25% of total taxes, income and NI, for what would equate to the average US income.

6. Waste. There is a lot of waste associated with universal healthcare. Again, ask a Canadian. Why? Well there is no incentive to produce anything efficiently or cheaply because it is government funds being used to pay for it.

Again, I think this is another point that is exaggerated.
Do you think there is no waste in our current system? Go to any medical themed facility (hospital, clinic, pharmacy, nursing home, etc.) in the US and you'll see there is lots of waste.





Sorry if I was an ass in this post. Just a little e-fun, Hartmann.

::EDIT::
FUCK, that graph came out horribly, at least with my backround. Sorry about that...

This post has been edited by Psykopath: Jan 10 2008, 04:52 PM

[impala454]

Why do you guys have it in your head that healthcare is so screwed up? Everyone gets this idea around election time for some stupid reason. Where do these stupid statements of "insurance & pharm companies don't care about people anymore" come from? How many of you participating in this thread have broken your leg and had it go untreated due to the horrible healthcare system we have here? Gimme a friggin break.

[Psykopath]

Why do you guys have it in your head that healthcare is so screwed up? Everyone gets this idea around election time for some stupid reason. Where do these stupid statements of "insurance & pharm companies don't care about people anymore" come from?

You obviously don't have family working in the healthcare industry.
Insurance and pharmaceutical companies are very combative with the customer and less helpful in prevention.

Oh, and I don't just hate on the healthcare industry every 4 years, but you can continue to think so if it makes you feel better.

[Spectatrix]

ive never known anyone who didnt want health care/health insurance unless you count super uneducated people that also dont believe in services they pay into like the police and fire department. they dont care until their leg is broke, baby is sick or their house is burning down. and i think it SHOULD be mandatory especially for families. i dont want a stupid parent not wanting to pay in thus not looking out for their childrens health which would happen all the time

Young, healthy males are generally the ones who don't want insurance. Exactly the people that socialized systems depend on because they help keep overall costs down. I am highly opposed to mandatory enrollment.

[Mommy]

Why do you guys have it in your head that healthcare is so screwed up? Everyone gets this idea around election time for some stupid reason. Where do these stupid statements of "insurance & pharm companies don't care about people anymore" come from? How many of you participating in this thread have broken your leg and had it go untreated due to the horrible healthcare system we have here? Gimme a friggin break.

I believe Cathryn had an incident where her appendix ruptured or something and she didnt go to the hospital because it was $$$$ until she almost died.... or something like that.

I need hand surgery from a broken hand injury I had, but I cant afford it.

[impala454]

You obviously don't have family working in the healthcare industry.

Why would it matter if I had family working in the healthcare industry?

Insurance and pharmaceutical companies are very combative with the customer and less helpful in prevention.

Oh really... kinda like... oh... every other business in existence? Cell phone, cable, satellite, internet, auto shops, pretty much any business where customer service is employed. Either way, how would communizing healthcare solve customer service issues? And how does bad customer service = bad healthcare?

Oh, and I don't just hate on the healthcare industry every 4 years, but you can continue to think so if it makes you feel better.

You can deny it if it makes you feel better.

[Oasis]

Is it true that Obama smokes cigarettes?

[Mommy]

obviously no one cares.

[impala454]

I believe Cathryn had an incident where her appendix ruptured or something and she didnt go to the hospital because it was $$$$ until she almost died.... or something like that.

I need hand surgery from a broken hand injury I had, but I cant afford it.

But the communist healthcare systems makes you pay for it, whether you want to or not. That's the whole point.

[Mommy]

But the communist healthcare systems makes you pay for it, whether you want to or not. That's the whole point.

it doesnt MAKE you pay for it... if you dont want it, dont go to the hospital

[impala454]

it doesnt MAKE you pay for it... if you dont want it, dont go to the hospital

it comes out of your paycheck, whether you like it or not.

[Inferia]

Frankly, we pay for lots of things we don't want, need or ever use in this country. I frankly have never had the need for the fire department, nor do I remember the last time I used the police department, and once I get out of school, I probably won't need the department of education anymore either. There are roads in this country I've never traveled on, and I freaking pay taxes on these things even though I don't even have a voice on what they should be used on, but that's another point. Though I'm not sure how many Americans out there would support the elimination of all of those department, I guess short of the Ron Paul supporters. Which is another scary thing to have all those departments eliminated, I feel like as a whole, this country would be more polarized and go in the wrong direction.

[Oasis]

obviously no one cares.

Obviously I care enough to ask the question

[Billy]

I believe Cathryn had an incident where her appendix ruptured or something and she didnt go to the hospital because it was $$$$ until she almost died.... or something like that.

I need hand surgery from a broken hand injury I had, but I cant afford it.

It sucks that things are expensive for you. Blame insurance and litigation for driving up the expense. But why should I have to pay for you?

And why should you have to pay for another? Socialism has been an obvious failure* in Canada and Europe. Why would we want to move towards that type of economic policy? What makes us think we're so special that where they failed, we will succeed?


*I have talked politics with several germans, brits, and canadians, and they all hate the system they're currently in and envy America. Which is ironic to me because they also think Americans are stupid.

[impala454]

Frankly, we pay for lots of things we don't want, need or ever use in this country. I frankly have never had the need for the fire department, nor do I remember the last time I used the police department, and once I get out of school, I probably won't need the department of education anymore either. There are roads in this country I've never traveled on, and I freaking pay taxes on these things even though I don't even have a voice on what they should be used on, but that's another point. Though I'm not sure how many Americans out there would support the elimination of all of those department, I guess short of the Ron Paul supporters. Which is another scary thing to have all those departments eliminated, I feel like as a whole, this country would be more polarized and go in the wrong direction.

So what's your point? I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or what.

[Mommy]

Youre not paying for me... you are paying for yourself... anyone who pays taxes pays for it

[Psykopath]

But the communist healthcare systems makes you pay for it, whether you want to or not. That's the whole point.

Communism: An economic system in which capital is owned by private government.

Democratic Socialism: Democratic socialism is a socio-economic system with socialism as the economic basis, and democracy as the governing principle.

Socialized medicine: There are narrow definitions which limit the term to cases where the government funds and manages health care by directly employing health care providers. The narrow definition permits a clear distinction from single payer health insurance systems where the government finances health care but is not involved in care delivery.

There are also broad definitions which include cases where there is any kind of government subsidy or regulation in health care whether or not the employees are employed by the government. This wider usage therefore encompasses single payer systems.




You seem to going Ronald Reagan on me, Chuck. Too much usage of the word "communist."

Why would it matter if I had family working in the healthcare industry?

Get to see firsthand how bad it can be/how mismanaged it is.




And yes Jessica, it does "make" you pay for it. Although, I'd GLADLY pay for it.


So impala: Are opposed to all socialized programs, or just socialized medicine?

[Mommy]

Obviously I care enough to ask the question

im just saying if no one answers, you dont have to quote yourself to post it again...

[Psykopath]

*I have talked politics with several germans, brits, and canadians, and they all hate the system they're currently in and envy America. Which is ironic to me because they also think Americans are stupid.

Hmmmm, I've done the same (namely Germans) and have had professors (some of which were VERY right-wing) also do the same with other Europeans/Canadians/Japanese....but they had the complete opposite reaction.

All depends on who you talk to.

Just like to add I'm glad there is some legitimate debate going on here in NPR.

Doubt it will last, but it's cool now. =)

[Oasis]

im just saying if no one answers, you dont have to quote yourself to post it again...

I don't know if someone missed it during whatever argument you guys are having

I don't want someone who smokes cigarettes as president

[Mommy]

Hmmmm, I've done the same (namely Germans) and have had professors (some of which were VERY right-wing) also do the same with other Europeans/Canadians/Japanese....but they had the complete opposite reaction.

All depends on who you talk to.

Just like to add I'm glad there is some legitimate debate going on here in NPR.

Doubt it will last, but it's cool now. =)

you should have knocked on wood, dammit

and I have talked to some Canadians and they hate our healthcare system.

I don't know if someone missed it during whatever argument you guys are having

I don't want someone who smokes cigarettes as president

just curious... why? I mean, dont you still smoke...

[Oasis]

just curious... why? I mean, dont you still smoke...

I don't want someone with such blatant disregard for their health leading the country. And no, it doesn't make me a hypocrite. I'm a soon to be unemployed 27 year old. He's a presidential candidate.

And I smoke maybe a pack a week. Sometimes more, sometimes less

[Mommy]

I don't want someone with such blatant disregard for their health leading the country. And no, it doesn't make me a hypocrite. I'm a soon to be unemployed 27 year old. He's a presidential candidate.

And I smoke maybe a pack a week. Sometimes more, sometimes less

Why are you going to be unemployed soon? And I dont really see a problem with someone his age smoking... yeah its bad for him but he still seems kinda young to be affected by lung cancer unless he is a heavy smoker. I guess its a moot point because if I were to vote Democratic (or vote at all for that matter) I would vote for clinton.

[Seeker]

obama and hillary are both CFR/Bilderberg members and illuminati shills, don't even get me started about the front runners on the republican side

voting for one of those two is treasonous, and thomas jefferson would kill you bastards for voting liberty and freedom down the drain

[Oasis]

Why are you going to be unemployed soon?

Because I'm quitting my dead end boring ass job that isn't challenging in the slightest. And I'm finally moving out, so now I can probably get away with talking to my mom no more than five times a year.

I'll probably work at Fowler's or something for as long as it takes for me and my friend to start up our business. I've learned it isn't exactly an overnight thing and I don't think we have enough startup capitol yet

[Seeker]

what type of business are you starting?

[Mommy]

obama and hillary are both CFR members and illuminati shills, don't even get me started about the front runners on the republican side

voting for one of those two is treasonous, and thomas jefferson would kill you bastards for voting liberty and freedom down the drain

The likelihood of me voting is slimmer than *INSERT FUNNY METAPHORE HERE* so dont fret. I think all the candidates are dumbasses. I just like Hillary's healthcare ideas, and her husband decreased national debt so yeah... I cant stand her though

[FORSAKENR320]

i just wanna gather my survival gear quietly, be left alone, and when all you fucks break the world, i plan to survive. even if i have to (and here is hoping) if i have to put 2 bullets in every presidential candidate to do it

[theIncredibleEdi...]

Bareback Obama

[Seeker]

i just wanna gather my survival gear quietly, be left alone, and when all you fucks break the world, i plan to survive. even if i have to (and here is hoping) if i have to put 2 bullets in every presidential candidate to do it

i'll prob run into forsaken in the middle of east texas piney woods here in a few years when martial law is declared and anyone not towing the government line is sent to haliburton-built concentration camps (yes they are real and i can pull up the haliburton contract to show you)

then while munching on dried venison we'll sit and laugh at all the dumbasses on techsans who thought i was a conspiracy nut

[Oasis]

what type of business are you starting?

Flipping houses. Buying em, fixing em up, and selling em. His parents have been doing it for 25 years, my parents were in real estate for 20 years. And unlike the fucking oil industry, real estate actually interests me and I've always wanted to start my own business anyways.

I just have to get a temporary job to keep me entertained. Otherwise I'll start drinking every day and wasting my life playing 360. Plus, I'll be working with a bunch of hot 19 year olds. Which rules

edit.
And I've been talking to a friend who works for Baseballamerica.com about getting me a job writing articles for them. It won't pay well at all, but it's something I've always wanted to do.

[Psykopath]

i just wanna gather my survival gear quietly, be left alone, and when all you fucks break the world, i plan to survive. even if i have to (and here is hoping) if i have to put 2 bullets in every presidential candidate to do it

Yep.


I'll have to grow out my "insane hermit" beard again though.

[Seeker]

Flipping houses. Buying em, fixing em up, and selling em. His parents have been doing it for 25 years, my parents were in real estate for 20 years. And unlike the fucking oil industry, real estate actually interests me and I've always wanted to start my own business anyways.

I just have to get a temporary job to keep me entertained. Otherwise I'll start drinking every day and wasting my life playing 360. Plus, I'll be working with a bunch of hot 19 year olds. Which rules

I've always wanted to do that, you can make a shit-load of money, good luck.

[FORSAKENR320]

i'll prob run into forsaken in the middle of east texas piney woods here in a few years when martial law is declared and anyone not towing the government line is sent to haliburton-built concentration camps (yes they are real and i can pull up the haliburton contract to show you)

then while munching on dried venison we'll sit and laugh at all the dumbasses on techsans who thought i was a conspiracy nut

sounds like a plan

[Testm0nkey]

to Billy's statement earlier about Canadians he knows hating their system I never met one that didnt think it was the best thing in the friggin world.


whats with cfr being illuminati?

[theIncredibleEdi...]

yeah yeah, you survivalists are gonna end up like the guy in "Into the Wild"

Going insane from loneliness, and ending up dying of starvation from eating the wrong berry.

[FORSAKENR320]

yeah yeah, you survivalists are gonna end up like the guy in "Into the Wild"

Going insane from loneliness, and ending up dying of starvation from eating the wrong berry.

narp. you only get lonely if you are alone.

i plan on being the personal savior of a fistful of people. maybe get some good breeding stock, attractive females completely dependant on me for survival, and extremely grateful and plan on creating my own kooku westboro baptist style community.

[theIncredibleEdi...]

narp. you only get lonely if you are alone.

i plan on being the personal savior of a fistful of people. maybe get some good breeding stock, attractive females completely dependant on me for survival, and extremely grateful and plan on creating my own kooku westboro baptist style community.

Look at you, all planned out

[pebkac]

it comes out of your paycheck, whether you like it or not.

You have to pay for national defense if you like it or not...

I don't see the whole "It'll be too expensive" argument. Universal healthcare would probably be the best thing possible for our economy. A lot of jobs are moving to Canada now. And paying their employees MORE. Why? Because healthcare costs both employers and employees less.

[Hartmann]

Psykopath, I'll get back to your original response to my post in a bit (gotta read through it).

I work with four Canadians, all from different parts of Canada. Only one liked the healthcare system. The taxes and the poor treatment (waiting for hours for emergency rooms) lead them to the U.S.

In fact, the one guy's wife was a nurse in Canada and saw a bunch of problems, including having to turn people away instead of giving them the dire surgery they need. The reason? Not enough room.

Another had a friend who needed heart surgery, no one in Canada would do the surgery due to the cost that the hospital would incur. They came to the states and paid out of pocket for the surgery.

The problem is that neither the healthcare system now, nor the socialized medicine route, are perfect. I just feel that our system now is much better than any social medicine plan we could ever come up with.

And yes, young males (and now females) are the ones not wanting to enroll in insurance plans. They see it as a cost that doesn't affect them and they don't want to pay for it. Why would a tax that they have to pay for be a good idea?

The point about us already paying for social service does little for the case. Fire and Police departments usually aren't the Nirvana effective monetary spending and social gain. Meaning, a lot of money goes into them for only some social well-being. A lot of people feel that the need for these services is imminent, not so with medical care.

I don't think it's too expensive and I don't necessarily see it as a good thing for the economy. We'd tax more Americans more money, which could have negative affects, especially in the short term.

[Testm0nkey]

i had an on loan canadian professor whos family were rural and poor. her father had massive heart surgery and a replacement and they practically didnt pay anything for it. which is a good thing because she said he would have just died. she also got a virtually free education and is now a doctor.

i still really dont see any flaws

[Hartmann]

i had an on loan canadian professor whos family were rural and poor. her father had massive heart surgery and a replacement and they practically didnt pay anything for it. which is a good thing because she said he would have just died. she also got a virtually free education and is now a doctor.

i still really dont see any flaws

So the moral of the story is, for some people it's great and for some people it's horrible (or it's a mix of both). The question is, how are you going to feel when it's you (or your family) and the universal care doesn't pan out to be everything you thought it was? Will you still praise it as being a solution?

Also, for your Canadian professor's family, I believe the fact that they were rural put them in a different "bucket" for healthcare. I will ask the one coworker who lived rurally on Monday if that's the case. See, with socialism, everyone is equal, some are just more equal than others

[Testm0nkey]

that was my point. for every negative story there will be a positive one.

well i wont know in that scenario for sure until it happens, wont i? but from my perspective now and looking at other countries i think its the better solution.

i know canadians really love their indians and they get special treatment but she was about as white as a hitler love child. and equality = equal opportunity (imo). some do get more in that case

[Hartmann]

i know canadians really love their indians and they get special treatment but she was about as white as a hitler love child. and equality = equal opportunity (imo). some do get more in that case

Equality is not equal opportunity, at least in the world we live in. Equality is summed up by saying that everyone is equal and everyone deserves the same benefits, which is far from the truth. I do agree that equal opportunity is important but I don't think concessions should be made at the expense of some to benefit the few.

Then comes the issue of what really is equal opportunity. Can a rich person claim that their opportunities were different because they grew up rich?

I really should have majored in whatever subject all of this is covered in... It's interesting.

[chook]

I don't know if someone missed it during whatever argument you guys are having

I don't want someone who smokes cigarettes as president

Hitler didn't smoke but Churchill did!

I talked to my Canadian relatives, they have two health care systems. The free one for things like medicine and broken bones. The private one for major shit!

[Psykopath]

narp. you only get lonely if you are alone.

i plan on being the personal savior of a fistful of people. maybe get some good breeding stock, attractive females completely dependant on me for survival, and extremely grateful and plan on creating my own kooku westboro baptist style community.

I will form a separate sect.

Full of sneaky, ninja death training.

[THECHICKEN]

I will form a separate sect.

Full of sneaky, ninja death training.

I claim the pirate style raiding (nomadic) community!

[FORSAKENR320]

my viking community will be best suited. trained from birth to rape and pillage... yea, thats the key

[chook]

fuck, i'll just run the post apocalyptic porn sites.

[Psykopath]

my viking community will be best suited. trained from birth to rape and pillage... yea, thats the key

But you won't hear us coming.


SNEAK ATTACK

[impala454]

You have to pay for national defense if you like it or not...

I don't see the whole "It'll be too expensive" argument. Universal healthcare would probably be the best thing possible for our economy. A lot of jobs are moving to Canada now. And paying their employees MORE. Why? Because healthcare costs both employers and employees less.

I don't know about "a lot of jobs are moving to Canada."

look at it this way.

The way it works right now:
Person A. work for someone who pays for most of if not all of your health insurance.
Person B. you pay outright for your health insurance (typically $300-400/month)
Person C. you have no health insurance, but will still recieve emergency service if you so desire (via taxes)

The communist "universal" healthcare:
Person Z (everyone). you recieve health insurance from the government. you have no choice of doctors, and you pay 5-10% of your income to the government. (for me in particular, I'd pay $270-550/month)

So you're taking something which is vastly paid for by the private sector currently, and now having the government pay for it, but also costing the end consumer much more, as well as lowering the overall quality of the healthcare itself.

You guys just don't seem to look at the big picture. You just think "Universal Healthcare = free! yay!".

Take a gander at this, you "Canada rules!" people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

[Seeker]

I agree with Impala weirdly enough. The solution to America's health care problem is NOT socialized government-run Canadian-style health care.

Private health care provides higher quality care and more choices. What needs to be fixed is the government needs to put checks and balances on pharmaceutical companies, health care equipment manufacturers, and hospitals. There's no need for the aforementioned to make a 200% profit off of their drugs and equipment. We need an anti-trust monopoly busting judge to break up the racket. We also need to get the FDA to quit approving dangerous patented drugs and start promoting natural herbal alternatives that work just as well if not better (more effective and safe)... but since natural herbs can't be patented and sold at profit it'll never happen. It'll also never happen because the powers-that-be don't want everyone to be healthy and live to 120 due to over-population. A broken health-care system works as population control.

Can't have more healthy rats than resources.

[Hartmann]

Private health care provides higher quality care and more choices. What needs to be fixed is the government needs to put checks and balances on pharmaceutical companies, health care equipment manufacturers, and hospitals. There's no need for the aforementioned to make a 200% profit off of their drugs and equipment. We need an anti-trust monopoly busting judge to break up the racket.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but, I agree. Well, with the first sentence at least. I'm not sure trading one government control for another is the answer (and a judge breaking up a "monopoly" is govt. control). There do need to be more stringent guidelines but I am not sure direct action against the insurance companies will have the desired impact.

[Inferia]

What about a two tiered universal health care system?

[THECHICKEN]

Can't we just spay and Neuter the poor?

[impala454]

There's no need for the aforementioned to make a 200% profit off of their drugs and equipment. We need an anti-trust monopoly busting judge to break up the racket.

this

Can't we just spay and Neuter the poor?

and this

[woody]

http://consumerist.com/340948/drug-compani...n-research-what

Drug Companies Spend Almost $60 Billion On Marketing, $30 Billion On Research. What?

[Hartmann]

http://consumerist.com/340948/drug-compani...n-research-what

Drug Companies Spend Almost $60 Billion On Marketing, $30 Billion On Research. What?

Exactly my point. Stop them from marketing their drugs to people and a lot the issues would solve themselves.

[Spectatrix]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but, I agree. Well, with the first sentence at least. I'm not sure trading one government control for another is the answer (and a judge breaking up a "monopoly" is govt. control). There do need to be more stringent guidelines but I am not sure direct action against the insurance companies will have the desired impact.

It would help if we actually had free market healthcare.

[pebkac]

I don't know about "a lot of jobs are moving to Canada."

look at it this way.

The way it works right now:
Person A. work for someone who pays for most of if not all of your health insurance.
Person B. you pay outright for your health insurance (typically $300-400/month)
Person C. you have no health insurance, but will still recieve emergency service if you so desire (via taxes)

The communist "universal" healthcare:
Person Z (everyone). you recieve health insurance from the government. you have no choice of doctors, and you pay 5-10% of your income to the government. (for me in particular, I'd pay $270-550/month)

So you're taking something which is vastly paid for by the private sector currently, and now having the government pay for it, but also costing the end consumer much more, as well as lowering the overall quality of the healthcare itself.

You guys just don't seem to look at the big picture. You just think "Universal Healthcare = free! yay!".

Take a gander at this, you "Canada rules!" people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Canada

I still don't see how you're getting that Universal Healthcare is more expensive than Private Healthcare. The link you posted shows a chart at the end shows that Canadians have a higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality with less doctors than us and at less than 2/3 the cost. All the while in Canada and the UK, the governments spend LOWER percentages of their income on healthcare.

At any rate, I don't recall anyone ever saying that Canada's healthcare system was perfect. And I don't see why we have to base our healthcare system on it. For example, one study ranked the UK's system as being the best out of the countries they compared.

[impala454]

I still don't see how you're getting that Universal Healthcare is more expensive than Private Healthcare. The link you posted shows a chart at the end shows that Canadians have a higher life expectancy and lower infant mortality with less doctors than us and at less than 2/3 the cost.

More expensive to the end consumer. What you're talking about is lower costs overall. Huge difference. We spend more per person on healthcare in the US overall because we don't have to wait forever to get things done. As well as having quicker access to more specialized (and therefore more expensive) healthcare.

All the while in Canada and the UK, the governments spend LOWER percentages of their income on healthcare.

Again shown above why we spend more total, look at the % of healthcare costs paid by the government. nearly 70% in Canada, and only 45% in the US.

A couple other fun facts on Canada's healthcare (note, private healthcare clinics are ILLEGAL)

Studies by the Commonwealth Fund found that 57% of Canadians reported waiting 4 weeks or more to see a specialist; 24% of Canadians waited 4 hours or more in the emergency room
..
One in nine trained-in-Canada doctors is practising medicine in the United States...
..
A 2006 article in The New York Times quoted Dr. Brian Day, who opened an illegal private clinic called The Cambie Surgery Center, as saying, "This is a country in which dogs can get a hip replacement in under a week and in which humans can wait two to three years."
..
According to a September 14, 2007 article from CTV News, Canadian Liberal MP Belinda Stronach came to the United States for breast cancer surgery in June of 2007.
..
When Robert Bouressa, the Premier of Quebec needed cancer treatment, he came to the U.S. to get it
..
In 2007 a woman from Calgary who was pregnant with quadruplets was sent to Great Falls, Montana to give birth. An article on this incident states, "There was no room at any other Canadian neonatal intensive care unit." [8] One critic of Canadian health care wrote, "They left a city of a million people, drove 325 miles, and crossed an international border in order to get what can be done in several cities in mighty Montana... They didn't even have to come to largest cities in Montana. Instead, they came to Great Falls, population 56,000."
..
Champion figure skater Audrey Williams needed a hip replacement. Even though she waited two years and suffered in terrible pain, she still did not get the surgery, because the waiting list was so long. In Canada, it is illegal for someone to spend their own money to get health care. So she came to the U.S. and spent her own money to get the surgery.

Universal *cough* communist *cough* Healthcare at its finest.

At any rate, I don't recall anyone ever saying that Canada's healthcare system was perfect. And I don't see why we have to base our healthcare system on it. For example, one study ranked the UK's system as being the best out of the countries they compared.

I'm not sure how the UK's system works, but if you look at theirs, their government pays 85% of all healthcare costs. I might as well just hand over my entire paycheck to the government if the US tried to do that. Then again, the UK, being such a small country, may have a much larger portion of available tax revenue to spend on things like this, where the US would not.

I think some of these systems probably work fine in their respective countries, but just because they work fine for them doesn't mean they'll work here. I like our system just fine.

My old company, I paid $37/check for health insurance, and my new company I pay $0. I have deductibles in the $500-1000 range and max out of pocket in the $2000 range. I have had back surgery as well as other surgeries, and hand picked my doctors each time. Hell, on my back surgery, I had currently been living in Lubbock, and decided it would be easier on me to come home to Houston to go to a really good surgeon, and work from home remotely while recovering. I paid a total of $2000 out of pocket for everything involved. And I'm not some exceptional case. This wasn't with some mega super duper healthcare provider that only huge companies can afford. It was friggin regular old blue cross blue shield. It's not impossible to pay for like you guys think, or out of the range of poor people. I just ran a quick quote off www.bcbstx.com and I can get a plan with a premium as low as $49/month, with $10 generic drugs and a $1,500 deductible, and there are even cheaper plans if you don't mind a higher deductible. people bitch about health insurance costing too much to bother with, but it's more like people just want it and don't want to pay for it. And people like Hillary want them to think Universal Healthcare = free healthcare.

[Testm0nkey]

america spends a lot of money on healthcare because americans have high rates of preventable diseases.

[Hartmann]

america spends a lot of money on healthcare because americans have high rates of preventable diseases.

Exactly, so why is the answer not social and free market changes but instead "universal" healthcare?

[Psykopath]

Well apparently we need to work on eliminating all socialized programs, from the way you people seem to fear them like communism (which they aren't, but whatever Reaganistic fear-flavored kool-aid is poured down your gullet).

Let us start by eliminating socialized medicine. "But that doesn't exist in Amuuuuureca, Billy? That'd be uuuunnnnnnnpatriotic!!"
Veterans Health Administration.
"Oh."




Anyways, back to preparing for the apocalypse!!

[FORSAKENR320]

"Oh."
Anyways, back to preparing for the apocalypse!!

lol, i'm actually cleaning my gun and sharpening my knives right now... haha

[Hartmann]

Let us start by eliminating socialized medicine. "But that doesn't exist in Amuuuuureca, Billy? That'd be uuuunnnnnnnpatriotic!!"
Veterans Health Administration.
"Oh."
Anyways, back to preparing for the apocalypse!!

I am not sure how the VHA equates to socialized medicine as a service was performed for the healthcare.

Secondly, if you are going to use the VHA as a model for shining medical service I suggest you pay a visit to Walter Reed.

[impala454]

Well apparently we need to work on eliminating all socialized programs, from the way you people seem to fear them like communism (which they aren't, but whatever Reaganistic fear-flavored kool-aid is poured down your gullet).

Let us start by eliminating socialized medicine. "But that doesn't exist in Amuuuuureca, Billy? That'd be uuuunnnnnnnpatriotic!!"
Veterans Health Administration.
"Oh."
Anyways, back to preparing for the apocalypse!!

Everything is so black and white with you guys... The subject (whether the thread title says it or not) is healthcare. Don't assume that whatever I or anyone else says about socialized healthcare being a bad idea means that we also think there should be zero government controlled programs. Police, Fire, transportation, etc, all make perfect sense to be government controlled, as they are systems that all have to work together. I couldn't imagine what our highways would look like if we had a capitalist road building system. Or imagine how a capitalized fire fighter system would work. On the other hand something like education, IMHO that could be a toss up as to whether you have a socialized public school system like we have now or do away with it and have purely private schools.

[Psykopath]

Everything is so black and white with you guys...

aha


haha



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


Same to you, Impala.


So, would you want an end to the VHA? It is socialized healthcare, after all.

[impala454]

"Hahhaha I know you are but what am I!", "OMG You do that all the time"... these responses really get old. If I really do _________ all the time I welcome you to point it out.

And again, you're applying what I was saying about the general healthcare system we have, obviously not the VHA. I have no problem with it as it (at least it's supposed to) takes care of veterans, who IMHO deserve it.

[FORSAKENR320]

"Hahhaha I know you are but what am I!", "OMG You do that all the time"... these responses really get old. If I really do _________ all the time I welcome you to point it out.

And again, you're applying what I was saying about the general healthcare system we have, obviously not the VHA. I have no problem with it as it (at least it's supposed to) takes care of veterans, who IMHO deserve it.

how about a vote? yes impala, you are the worst on these boards about everything being black or white, with no middle ground. wether it's your debates/arguements/bitch sessions..... or just your opinions on things. it's black or white. you suck and have a big butt

[Psykopath]

how about a vote? yes impala, you are the worst on these boards about everything being black or white, with no middle ground.

second the vote.

[Hartmann]

So, would you want an end to the VHA? It is socialized healthcare, after all.

Please see my post on previous page.

[impala454]

how about a vote? yes impala, you are the worst on these boards about everything being black or white, with no middle ground. wether it's your debates/arguements/bitch sessions..... or just your opinions on things. it's black or white. you suck and have a big butt

Yeah lets have a vote on something about me on a board where 80% of the board gets their panties in a wad about my posts.

And while yes I am a large person, I do not have a big butt.

[FORSAKENR320]

And while yes I am a large person, I do not have a big butt.

pics plz k thnx

[Billy]

Well apparently we need to work on eliminating all socialized programs, from the way you people seem to fear them like communism (which they aren't, but whatever Reaganistic fear-flavored kool-aid is poured down your gullet).

Let us start by eliminating socialized medicine. "But that doesn't exist in Amuuuuureca, Billy? That'd be uuuunnnnnnnpatriotic!!"
Veterans Health Administration.
"Oh."
Anyways, back to preparing for the apocalypse!!

Please forgive me because I don't want to pay MORE unfair taxes because some faggot got aids because he didn't make his boyfriend use a condom.

And obviously I mean more than just aids. What about lung cancer treatment for people who still choose to smoke? What about anyone else who have unhealthy practices? What about people who eat themselves to death and have all kinds of medical issues because of it? Why should their self-inflicted burden be spread over the population? Do the people who take care of themselves deserve this?

I don't think so.

[FORSAKENR320]

Please forgive me because I don't want to pay MORE unfair taxes because some faggot got aids because he didn't make his boyfriend use a condom.

And obviously I mean more than just aids. What about lung cancer treatment for people who still choose to smoke? What about anyone else who have unhealthy practices? What about people who eat themselves to death and have all kinds of medical issues because of it? Why should their self-inflicted burden be spread over the population? Do the people who take care of themselves deserve this?

I don't think so.

i do agree with you in a way, but not for the same reasons. life sucks, get a damn helmet. either you get off your ass and fix it, or roll over and die. the world isn't fair, and doesn't owe anyone a damn thing. i do not agree with welfare, or most government aid (there are a couple exceptions) but in general i hate all of them. all it does is show people that they can get away without taking care of their business, and then people start trying to exploit it.

[Oasis]

Please forgive me because I don't want to pay MORE unfair taxes because some faggot got aids because he didn't make his boyfriend use a condom.

And obviously I mean more than just aids. What about lung cancer treatment for people who still choose to smoke? What about anyone else who have unhealthy practices? What about people who eat themselves to death and have all kinds of medical issues because of it? Why should their self-inflicted burden be spread over the population? Do the people who take care of themselves deserve this?

I don't think so.

I agree with Billy. FUCK