This thing with the kid naming the teddy bear Muhammad? Options

[Hartmann]

What do you think?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7121025.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7115821.stm

Yep. Islam is a religion of peace. "CHOP HER HEAD OFF!"

I think it's hilarious that the kid who named the bear is actually named Muhammad.

There was a woman on the radio this morning that called in and told the host he was out of his mind of insulting Islam and then she immediately went on a rant about how George Bush hates African Americans. This is what my home country is coming to.

[Testm0nkey]

the real problem is that a teacher was sent to JAIL because she lets her students pick the name muhammed for the teddy bear. example for the young generation? its not insulting religion. by doing crap like that you just make a problem more complicated and undefined

the children dont understand how that can be insulting - the only message they would get is they got in trouble for doing it so it must have been a bad thing


and you need background about whats going on in europe, a lot of muslims are angry and have some right to be. that doesnt reflect on the entire religion

[Hartmann]

uh the real problem is that a teacher was sent to JAIL because she lets her students pick the name muhammed for the teddy bear. thats reeeeeeeeeeally tolerant and a good example for the young generation. its not insulting religion. by doing crap like that you just make a problem more complicated and undefined

Oh absolutely.

The kid was asked why he named the bear that and it was because he respected Muhammad. Kids have no idea about the rules of a religion yet and to hold a teacher responsible is ludicrous.

If a kid here named a bear Jesus, I wouldn't care until they were old enough to understand that it may be disrespectful.

If they put this teacher to death, I hope the UK sends Khartoum back to the stone age... Oh... Wait...

[Testm0nkey]

england doesnt have capital punishment


americans scare me

[Hartmann]

england doesnt have capital punishment
americans scare me

I know they don't have capital punishment but this woman is being held in Khartoum and people are marching to have her killed.

[Testm0nkey]

ok she taught in the middle east? then she should have known better. dont run into a different culture and not take the time to learn its customs otherwise you get in trouble. the teacher was just dumb

for example, in Singapore a person could be put to death for minor drug charges. we dont do that in America and we dont "understand" that. but when you are there you have to respect their authority. to them that is an acceptable response

i also know when flying to singapore, while you are still on the plane, you have to sign a waiver stating you understand their rules and customs and they give you a Do not do list. id be curious if flying into the middle east if they do something similar. i think that they would/should

[Hartmann]

ok she taught in the middle east? then she should have known better. dont run into a different culture and not take the time to learn its customs otherwise you get in trouble. the teacher was just dumb

for example, in Singapore a person could be put to death/lifetime in prison for minor drug charges. we dont do that in America and we dont "understand" that. but when you are there you have to respect their authority. to them that is an acceptable response

I think those are two completely different ideas.

In Singapore it has nothing to do with religion, instead it has to do with keeping the country safe and clean. I have no problem with Singapore caning someone for smoking some dope because it's their law.

Flying pretty much anywhere you have to sign some sort of waiver. In Singapore though, they are adamant that you understand their drug laws. I'm not sure if when you fly into Khartoum in the little prop plane if you get a form that tells you 'By signing this you agree to not allow your students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad"'.

In Sudan, it isn't civil law that is being enforced, it's religious law and this is being done other places as well. Granted, she should have known what she was getting herself into when she went there, however, she didn't name the bear, she just allowed the students to. Why don't they cut the head off the little boy who named it?

[Testm0nkey]

religion is a strong part of their culture. religious law is the law for their country in a lot of ways. still the law. respecting their religious laws is keeping their country clean and safe to them.

do you think religion should not be involved in any countries laws? start with america

what is good and right in one culture is not whats always good and right in another. what is correct for us may not be for them etc. culture customs are not universally valid etc. diversity 101

the question of universal human rights happens all over the world not just the middle east. people even have problems with the way americans punish people. and human rights watchdogs can and do get involved but wishing for a country to get turned into glass and the people vaporized isnt very in line with that kind of thinking and its hypocritical if you dont believe they have the right to punish this english woman how they see fit

[Hartmann]

religion is a strong part of their culture. religious law is the law for their country in a lot of ways. still the law. respecting their religious laws is keeping their country clean and safe to them.

do you think religion should not be involved in any countries laws? start with america

what is good and right in one culture is not whats always good and right in another. what is correct for us may not be for them etc. culture customs are not universally valid etc. diversity 101

the question of universal human rights happens all over the world not just the middle east. people even have problems with the way americans punish people. and human rights watchdogs can and do get involved but wishing for a country to get turned into glass and the people vaporized isnt very in line with that kind of thinking and its hypocritical if you dont believe they have the right to punish this english woman how they see fit

It was a joke. Apparently humor eluded my post.

I'll agree it's their law. The issue is that the law is subjective instead of objective.

When I or my co-workers go to Saudi Arabia there is an understanding that the law there is very different and we have to be aware of cultural things. However, our biggest fear is subjectiveness of Saudi law. There is no absolute (much like there isn't here), there difference though, is that the law is applied on a whim, not on a definitive decision from previous cases.

I completely understand cultural diversity, what I don't understand is how they can apply a law that is not written, it's more of understanding in the culture (if you read the second link you'll understand what I mean). Some Muslims don't even understand why or how the naming of Muhammad should be applied.

We are supposed to be working with the Sudanese people to get that country back on its feet but when this type of thinking is what we're faced with, then we have problems. Yes, there are cultural differences, but there is an understanding of right and wrong outside of religion as well.

Do you think this woman should be put to death?

In that case, if it came into law here that torture is a legal way of interviewing people, would you think it is right?

[pysex]

this is fucking retarded


so now muslims are rioting in the streets because a little kid named a teddy bear muhammed?





ok so when i invent super fast space travel...i'm going to colonize mars...and blow earth up....

people have fucking ruined this planet

[Seeker]

muslims are retarded, that's all you need to know to know why this happened

[Spectatrix]

The truly asinine thing about this is that it's apparently not an obvious taboo, even to those raised in the culture. If it were, the children wouldn't have named it Muhammad in the first place. How is a British teacher supposed to understand cultural intricacies that even native residents aren't aware of or are in disagreement about?

[Oasis]

muslims are retarded, that's all you need to know to know why this happened

No shit.

And people wonder why I hate Islam.

[Hartmann]

The truly asinine thing about this is that it's apparently not an obvious taboo, even to those raised in the culture. If it were, the children wouldn't have named it Muhammad in the first place. How is a British teacher supposed to understand cultural intricacies that even native residents aren't aware of or are in disagreement about?

*ding* *ding* *ding*

That's what I was trying to get at but you said it much more eloquently.

[pebkac]

I think those are two completely different ideas.

In Singapore it has nothing to do with religion, instead it has to do with keeping the country safe and clean. I have no problem with Singapore caning someone for smoking some dope because it's their law.

Flying pretty much anywhere you have to sign some sort of waiver. In Singapore though, they are adamant that you understand their drug laws. I'm not sure if when you fly into Khartoum in the little prop plane if you get a form that tells you 'By signing this you agree to not allow your students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad"'.

In Sudan, it isn't civil law that is being enforced, it's religious law and this is being done other places as well. Granted, she should have known what she was getting herself into when she went there, however, she didn't name the bear, she just allowed the students to. Why don't they cut the head off the little boy who named it?

So extremism is ok just as long as it isn't religious extremism?

This is a pretty fucked up situation, but there are plenty of other situations around the world that are equally fucked up. Whether its religion, politics, or tradition, ideology is still ideology.

[Inferia]

There are lots of rules in different countries that are not so obvious. Not all countries have every rule written out in a book somewhere. Somethings people of that culture just know not to do, and trusting a kid to know of these rules is slightly crazy. Kids don't know a lot of things, you really should as an adult about it. I mean, perhaps the their reaction is an over reaction, perhaps not. We can't use our cultural values to judge another culture, or else we'd never understand.

[Hartmann]

So extremism is ok just as long as it isn't religious extremism?

This is a pretty fucked up situation, but there are plenty of other situations around the world that are equally fucked up. Whether its religion, politics, or tradition, ideology is still ideology.

But it isn't extremism.

In Singapore, the punishment is probably excessive, but you don't see people in the streets chanting "Kill the drug user!"

[Dogmeat]

White people have failed miserably this century.

[GOB]

so now muslims are rioting in the streets because a little kid named a teddy bear muhammed?

but it's americans that scare cathryn

[TetraGrammaton C...]

unfortunately, the law rarely accounts for intent
apparently extremists also refrain from this.

this is one of the largest problems with anti-hatred type laws.
the amount of hatred incited is determined by the audience rather than by the "perpetrator."

[Billy]

I am aghast that anyone would defend the reaction of these muslims.

I was going to post an argument against Cathryn's opinion, but then I remembered the futility in argument on Techsans.

So to make a long story short, by cutting out all the metaphors, comparisons, and logical debate with coinciding support that *should* have some sort of influence, I will skip all the misunderstandings, 4 pages of counter-argument and more misunderstandings, and get right down to my point:

Cathryn, you are absolutely, matter of factly, wrong.

[FORSAKENR320]

I am aghast that anyone would defend the reaction of these muslims.

I was going to post an argument against Cathryn's opinion, but then I remembered the futility in argument on Techsans.

So to make a long story short, by cutting out all the metaphors, comparisons, and logical debate with coinciding support that *should* have some sort of influence, I will skip all the misunderstandings, 4 pages of counter-argument and more misunderstandings, and get right down to my point:

Cathryn, you are absolutely, matter of factly, wrong.

oops, you made the no-no. now cathryn is going to complain to the mods, and they are going to delete your posts.

[Testm0nkey]

my opinion that it was stupid of her is wrong? its my opinion

[Testm0nkey]

We can't use our cultural values to judge another culture, or else we'd never understand.

thats what i was trying to say

[pebkac]

But it isn't extremism.

In Singapore, the punishment is probably excessive, but you don't see people in the streets chanting "Kill the drug user!"

Probably excessive? It's an extreme. Hence the term extremism.

[impala454]

The truly asinine thing about this is that it's apparently not an obvious taboo, even to those raised in the culture. If it were, the children wouldn't have named it Muhammad in the first place. How is a British teacher supposed to understand cultural intricacies that even native residents aren't aware of or are in disagreement about?

Maybe they did what all kids do with new teachers, do whatever possible to get them in trouble "Hey Billy, name your bear Muhammed and she'll get stoned to death!"

[chook]

england doesnt have capital punishment
americans scare me

That and the previous statement show that you thought the arrest was in Europe first. Read correctly next time!

[Hartmann]

Probably excessive? It's an extreme. Hence the term extremism.

But again, the crime in Singapore is a written law that has written penalties whereas the Sudan case has somewhat of a written law (subjective) but the punishment is made up as they go along.

I don't know the exacts of the laws in Singapore but I believe intent is also taken into account when deciding the punishment for the drug cases. If your intent is to distribute then your penalty will be higher than a person who is just buying.

[Oasis]

We can't use our cultural values to judge another culture, or else we'd never understand.

We can't?

Why the hell not?

I don't need to immerse myself in the Muslim "culture" to realize they're an extremely violent and oppressive religion. And I'm more than qualified to use my cultural values (coming from a more or less sane society) to judge theirs (zealot psychotic fucks)

Get your head out of your ass.

[blaarg]

you know if the Sudanese people were atheists this wouldn't be happening...

[Spectatrix]

Apparently the whole complaint was a setup by a disgruntled former employee trying to get the school shut down: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/12/03...hool/index.html

The Sudanese President pardoned the teacher of her prison sentence and she'll be returning to England soon (not sure if the deportation order was still in effect or if she chose to return).

[Hartmann]

Apparently the whole complaint was a setup by a disgruntled former employee trying to get the school shut down: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/12/03...hool/index.html

The Sudanese President pardoned the teacher of her prison sentence and she'll be returning to England soon (not sure if the deportation order was still in effect or if she chose to return).

Good to hear.