Mike Huckabee, Are you KIDDING me?! Options

[blaarg]

This guy is polling in the 20% range in Iowa. Are you FUCKING kidding me!??!

Mike Huckabee:
Doesn't believe in evolution.
Is an ordained minister who thinks that faith "makes us less judgmental, as we see others with the same frailties we have," yet would champion an effort to amend the constitution for a gay marriage ban.
Against stem cell research.
Support the war in Iraq.
"My faith doesn't influence my decisions, it drives them."

Hey but at least he believes in being environmentally responsible!

(all quotes/opinions taken from his website)

This is fucking ridiculous, and I love how he gets all upset when he gets asked the evolution question. "It's interesting that that question would even be asked for somebody running for President. I'm not planning on writing the curriculum in an 8th grade science book, I'm asking to have the opportunity to become the President of the United States." I think it is an extremely VALID question, it shows how he is 1) a religious zealot 2) is crazy thinking that there is a possibility that God created everything in 6 days.

[\rant]

[THECHICKEN]

I kind of like him from what i've seen.

[GOB]

wow, you are stupid to think the average american is smart enough to recognize more than one of those flaws

[Spectatrix]

Not that it's a quality I particularly care to see in a president, but over half of Americans don't believe that humans evolved. To call him a religious zealot simply because of that is a bit presumptuous. In combination with the other stuff, though... yeah, I'd more or less have to agree with you.

Also keep in mind that disbelieving evolution is not the same as being a young earth creationist.

[Testm0nkey]

i dislike living in a country where religion is so predominate. but i plan on living in america in the long run so i can help destroy the system! imagine a place where people are treated fairly and the laws are made for the betterment of the whole AND the future

i am ranting as well. its the stress of living in a small city. i cant function in a town with less than a half million and even thats pushing the limits

[GOB]

right, because in big cities, religion is strictly forbidden (especially by government officials), and all races ride together on marshmallow trains to their jobs at the candy factory every day

[Testm0nkey]

yes actually. im less likely to find groups of people like that in a small podunk town

i feel like im constantly tittering on becoming a serial killer here in lubbock. i probably shouldnt announce that

[Billy]

We should murder, rape, and torture all who oppose evolution until they BELIEVE!!

[FORSAKENR320]

We should murder, rape, and torture all who oppose evolution until they BELIEVE!!

SPANISH INQUISITION LOL

[THECHICKEN]

oppress unto others before they oppress unto you

[jonathan83]

Mike Huckabee:
Doesn't believe in evolution.

This is fucking ridiculous, and I love how he gets all upset when he gets asked the evolution question. "It's interesting that that question would even be asked for somebody running for President. I'm not planning on writing the curriculum in an 8th grade science book, I'm asking to have the opportunity to become the President of the United States.".

who the fuck cares if he believes or doesnt believe in evolution? are you kidding me?

I think it is an extremely VALID question, it shows how he is 1) a religious zealot 2) is crazy thinking that there is a possibility that God created everything in 6 days

um, you're crazy because 1) that doesnt make him a religious zealot and 2) most Americans believe in God.
not everyone is an atheist like you. maybe you'd like China better.

[pebkac]

who the fuck cares if he believes or doesnt believe in evolution? are you kidding me?

um, you're crazy because 1) that doesnt make him a religious zealot and 2) most Americans believe in God.
not everyone is an atheist like you. maybe you'd like China better.

Well, yeah it kinda does. Unless he believes some other scientific theory (which I doubt), disbelieving in evolution just because the bible told you different is just sticking your head in the sand. There's just too much scientific evidence supporting evolution.

This post has been edited by pebkac: Nov 13 2007, 10:30 PM

[jonathan83]

Well, yeah it kinda does. Unless he believes some other scientific theory (which I doubt), disbelieving in evolution just because the bible told you different is just sticking your head in the sand. There's just too much scientific evidence supporting evolution.

evolution is still just a theory, let me remind you.

let me also remind you that 80% of Americans are Christians (thanks wikipedia)

[pebkac]

evolution is still just a theory, let me remind you.

let me also remind you that 80% of Americans are Christians (thanks wikipedia)

Re-read my post.

Well, yeah it kinda does. Unless he believes some other scientific theory (which I doubt), disbelieving in evolution just because the bible told you different is just sticking your head in the sand. There's just too much scientific evidence supporting evolution.

[jonathan83]

disbelieving in evolution just because the bible told you different is just sticking your head in the sand. There's just too much scientific evidence supporting evolution.

since you aren't Christian, this is probably something you don't understand, but Christianity is based on faith.

i still don't see why it's important for the president to believe or not believe in evolution. for me, it doesnt make a difference on whether he can do a good job or not.

[Testm0nkey]

for me if a candidate doesnt believe in evolution it means he most likely has pretty strong religious views. and i believe religion causes some big impartiality issues for example gay marriage, stem cell research, laws on funding etc. so to me it does affect whether he does a fair job or not. i dont believe someones personal faith should be a guide for America as a whole

[jonathan83]

for me if a candidate doesnt believe in evolution it means he most likely has pretty strong religious views. and i believe religion causes some big impartiality issues for example gay marriage, stem cell research, laws on funding etc. so to me if does affect whether he does a fair job or not. i dont believe someones personal faith should be a guide for America as a whole

i understand that, but when was the last time a non-religious president was elected?

i think this is one of those things where you have to choose your battles. all the candidates running for president (with at least a chance) talk about being very religious (including hilary and obama).

[chook]

I need to lead another Catholic Inquisition!!!
Starting on sending Duane back to Aruba :-P

[THECHICKEN]

I prefer my presidents to not be too hardcore into any belief that they won't go with modern ideas or what the populous might want. I also don't want a huge reveloutionary thats on the war path to change the country.

If i think huckabee is a little too conservative for my tastes i won't vote for him... but i really don't know how hardcore he is due to lack of research.

[Testm0nkey]

yeah i dont think anyone who says they are anti religious or even just not stating what they believe would have a good chance of being elected but i think thats wrong

[Oasis]

Got my vote

[jonathan83]

and just for the record, i dont even know anything about huckabee or his views (except what was said in this thread).

honestly, it doesnt really matter because he won't get the republican primary nomination anyway.

[pebkac]

i understand that, but when was the last time a non-religious president was elected?

i think this is one of those things where you have to choose your battles. all the candidates running for president (with at least a chance) talk about being very religious (including hilary and obama).

Since when did you have to be non-religious to believe in evolution? I know preachers that believe in evolution.

[THECHICKEN]

yeah i dont think anyone who says they are anti religious or even just not stating what they believe would have a good chance of being elected but i think thats wrong

Yeah, seems like every president has to be "moved" by religion to even be considered viable. Some you can tell are less hardcore, but most seem to be religious just for political sake.

[Oasis]

I know preachers that believe in evolution.

Only intelligent ones, who seem to be few and far between

[blaarg]

since you aren't Christian, this is probably something you don't understand, but Christianity is based on faith.

i still don't see why it's important for the president to believe or not believe in evolution. for me, it doesnt make a difference on whether he can do a good job or not.

I find that hard to believe...

So are you saying that if someone was a hardcore pastafarian (flying spaghetti monster) and truly believed that an invisible flying spaghetti monster created the universe and is aiding us in our daily lives and that same person says "my faith in [the flying spaghetti monster] not only influence my decisions, it drives them," isn't valid for the general population to know? You would probably find it EXTREMELY RELEVANT what his personal beliefs on the issue and would probably disregard him as a viable candidate.

[word replace fsm ==> God]

And I'm sorry, if you believe that God created the Earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th you are a religious zealot. The same goes if you believe that humans and dinosaurs coexisted 2500 years ago. Do you KNOW how crazy that sounds...and I would DEFINITELY not want someone who believes that to be running the country, is that so wrong?

[jonathan83]

Since when did you have to be non-religious to believe in evolution? I know preachers that believe in evolution.

yeah i never said that. i know plenty of christians who believe in evolution.

[jonathan83]

And I'm sorry, if you believe that God created the Earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th you are a religious zealot. The same goes if you believe that humans and dinosaurs coexisted 2500 years ago. Do you KNOW how crazy that sounds...and I would DEFINITELY not want someone who believes that to be running the country, is that so wrong?

so you do realize that you're calling 80% of this country religious zealots, right? because this is a core belief of the christian belief...and also for jews and muslims afaik.

and it isn't so hard to believe if you also believe that a man was crucified and came back to life. christianity has a lot of miracles associated with it.

[jonathan83]

for the record, i don't even know where i stand on evolution. it could have happened, or not. i dont know. i dont think ANYONE on here has done enough research to know for sure, have you? it just doesnt matter all that much to me.

we're here. i dont care how.

[Psykopath]

for the record, i don't even know where i stand on evolution. it could have happened, or not. i dont know. i dont think ANYONE on here has done enough research to know for sure, have you? it just doesnt matter all that much to me.

we're here. i dont care how.

Wait, which do you not believe in: 1.) the concept of evolution or 2.) that humans evolved from apes?

This post has been edited by Psykopath: Nov 14 2007, 12:51 AM

[blaarg]

let me also remind you that 80% of Americans are Christians (thanks wikipedia)

Thank god (no pun intended) this is changing. Atheists/agnostics are the faster growing "religious sect" (hah). Jumping from 8.4% to 15% in ten years (91-01) with total Christians dropping by 7.3% from 88.4-81.1% in th same period. I'm sure back in the 1400's a majority of over 80% believed the world was flat....

i think this is one of those things where you have to choose your battles. all the candidates running for president (with at least a chance) talk about being very religious (including hilary and obama).

This is fucking sad that it's true. If the statistics hold up that 15% of Americans are non-religious, then there should be 65 congressmen/women who are non-religious. Well how many are there really: 1. I can imagine that there are ample more who are but don't say it because of the reaction of their constituency (sounds very familiar to gay congressmen/women)...

[jonathan83]

Wait, which do you not believe in: 1.) the concept of evolution or 2.) that humans evolved from apes?

the concept is plausible, but not proven. i'm just stating this mainly for devil's advocate purposes (since nobody else is saying it).

[Psykopath]

the concept is plausible, but not proven. i'm just stating this mainly for devil's advocate purposes (since nobody else is saying it).

...





You really don't believe that certain traits in life have evolved to better the survival of certain species, etc., etc., etc.?

Also: Do you believe that the Earth is several billion years old, or merely a few thousand?

This post has been edited by Psykopath: Nov 14 2007, 12:57 AM

[blaarg]

so you do realize that you're calling 80% of this country religious zealots, right? because this is a core belief of the christian belief...and also for jews and muslims afaik.

are you kidding me?!?! you really think that all Christians believe in the literal interpretation of the bible regarding creation? I think it would be safe to say that the whole creation Story is regarded as being untrue in at least some religious circles (if not a majority)....the same reason why only three republican candidates raised there hand to say they didn't believe in evolution and a literal interpretation of the bible.

I just figured most Christians viewed it as something mentioned in the bible but they don't necessarily have to believe (you know, kind of like MOST of Leviticus, Numbers, among other things)...

I think a minority of the 80% believe in the creation story, and those are the religious zealots...

[THECHICKEN]

He's a christian... i don't get it. Most every politician is christian in some regard. Don't want to vote for a christian, dont... But i don't see how this guy is anymore conservative/christian than the next. Hes a conservative... and hes christian. His beliefs seem to follow that line of thinking. Nothing devilish about the guy though (not that i would neccesarily vote for him).

[blaarg]

He's a christian... i don't get it. Most every politician is christian in some regard. Don't want to vote for a christian, dont... But i don't see how this guy is anymore conservative/christian than the next. Hes a conservative... and hes christian. His beliefs seem to follow that line of thinking. Nothing devilish about the guy though (not that i would neccesarily vote for him).

Yeah I can vote for a christian, just not someone who doesn't believe in evolution and thinks that god created the earth in 6 days. I think that tells a lot about a person's mental clarity...

[jonathan83]

are you kidding me?!?! you really think that all Christians believe in the literal interpretation of the bible regarding creation?

no, i meant 80% believe in God.

so, you believe that people who believe the earth was created in 6 days are religious zealots...but just being christian (which means you DO believe that jesus was the son of god in human flesh and came back from the dead, etc.) is ok?

because if you think the earth in 6 days thing is weird, you must believe the rest of it is crazy too...which i would assume means you believe all christians are religious zealots.

[jonathan83]

Yeah I can vote for a christian, just not someone who doesn't believe in evolution and thinks that god created the earth in 6 days. I think that tells a lot about a person's mental clarity...

i just don't understand your stance here. you can vote for a christian (someone who believes that men were raised from the dead) but you WON'T vote for someone who believes the earth was created in 6 days?

[jonathan83]

...

You really don't believe that certain traits in life have evolved to better the survival of certain species, etc., etc., etc.?

Also: Do you believe that the Earth is several billion years old, or merely a few thousand?

zach...read my last post. i said that i was stating this mainly for the devil's advocate approach.

as far as the earth being billions of years old or thousands? i have no idea. i'm not a scientist. i kinda see both sides. carbon-dating is known to not be that effective, so i dunno. it wouldn't really change my outlook on life either way. i mean, being christian, i believe in god. i don't know how exactly he created the world, but i believe he did in some way. whether it was through evolution, yes, it's possible! but who knows, maybe it happened another way. he could've created the earth in 6 days (through some means i have no way of comprehending), or maybe one day in god's eyes are thousands of years? no clue again.

[theIncredibleEdi...]

I need to lead another Catholic Inquisition!!!
Starting on sending Duane back to Aruba :-P

bitch!

[theIncredibleEdi...]

Wait, can someone explain the "creationism" thing to me? I grew up a Jehovah's Witness, and we know they're all crackpots....but I don't remember them talking about how old they thought the earth was and all that. They just said God created the Earth, and made Eden...put Adam & Eve there, Eve ate the fruit/"peach" (code for vagina - I think she was a lesbo), blah blah blah blah.

[Spectatrix]

Duane - Most Christians believe some interpretation of the creation story put forth in the Book of Genesis. Some believe it allegorically and think that there might have been God-guided evolution involved in creation. Others believe that God created everything as-is over some period of time, not treating the 6 "days" as literal 24-hr days. And yet others believe that everything was created in 6 24-hr days. Many of those are young earth creationists, who ALSO believe that the earth is only a few thousand years old (based on tracing genealogical lines through the Bible).

I personally think the young earthers are nutters.

[THECHICKEN]

Every true christian believes that jesus is the son of god (and actually god) who was resurrected (from death) which science says you can't do. So "logically" you wouldn't be "mental clear" by being a christian at all?

7 day easy bake earth, or god coming back from death, its all just christian belief... i still don't see how huckabee = crazy apples

[Spectatrix]

Hey, but at least he's "Chuck Norris approved"!

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/...orris-approved/

[jonathan83]

Every true christian believes that jesus is the son of god (and actually god) who was resurrected (from death) which science says you can't do. So "logically" you wouldn't be "mental clear" by being a christian at all?

7 day easy bake earth, or god coming back from death, its all just christian belief... i still don't see how huckabee = crazy apples

this is the point i'm trying to make as well.

[blaarg]

Every true christian believes that jesus is the son of god (and actually god) who was resurrected (from death) which science says you can't do. So "logically" you wouldn't be "mental clear" by being a christian at all?

7 day easy bake earth, or god coming back from death, its all just christian belief... i still don't see how huckabee = crazy apples

your 100% right they both are fucking crazy. I guess I will have to choose between the less crazier ones who appear to be more rational by rejecting the biblical creationist stories until I get a candidate who reflects my personal beliefs (the lesser of two evils)...

lance, what's ron paul's stance?

[blaarg]

as far as the earth being billions of years old or thousands? i have no idea. i'm not a scientist. i kinda see both sides.

wow.

you even recognizing that there is possibility of earth only being a couple of thousand years old is pretty astonishing (your ability to see "both sides" of a one sided issue)...

[GOB]

i think we've found our new billy

[Spectatrix]

lance, what's ron paul's stance?

I'm not Lance, but apparently Ron Paul believes in evolution:

http://www.shanktified.com/archives/ron-pa...n-on-evolution/

[Billy]

i think we've found our new billy

The old one is still here and he is pleased.

[Billy]

yeah i never said that. i know plenty of christians who believe in evolution.

Like the Pope?

[jonathan83]

lance, what's ron paul's stance?

ron paul is a christian, but not sure about his stance on evolution.

[jonathan83]

wow.

you even recognizing that there is possibility of earth only being a couple of thousand years old is pretty astonishing (your ability to see "both sides" of a one sided issue)...

you even saying that you know for sure earth is millions of years old is astonishing...since you're not a scientist or have any experience in the matter.

i've read arguments on both sides, and the other side does have a lot of interesting things to say (and from leading scientists as well). i remember them saying a lot about how carbon-dating uses a fixed variable that's wayyy off, and basically say it's worthless. i don't know about it, but it's just stuff i've read by researching myself a little bit.

i thought liberals were supposed to be open-minded? that's why i like staying in the middle.

[blaarg]

you even saying that you know for sure earth is millions of years old is astonishing...since you're not a scientist or have any experience in the matter.

i've read arguments on both sides, and the other side does have a lot of interesting things to say (and from leading scientists as well). i remember them saying a lot about how carbon-dating uses a fixed variable that's wayyy off, and basically say it's worthless. i don't know about it, but it's just stuff i've read by researching myself a little bit.

i thought liberals were supposed to be open-minded? that's why i like staying in the middle.

all I can say is wow.

I didn't know I got teleported back to the 1600's....

please bring up sources of these "reputable" scientists who think that the earth is thousands of years old...
ten dollars say they are all got their PhDs in theology...

and if being a liberal means that I am close-minded to egregiously incorrect statements, then I'm guilty as charged..

[jonathan83]

please bring up sources of these "reputable" scientists who think that the earth is thousands of years old...
ten dollars say they are all got their PhDs in theology...

http://www.creationists.org/outstanding.html
you owe me $10.

[jonathan83]

note that many were previously atheists and evolutionists when they started out.

[blaarg]

I like the part of:
"As time permits, more names will be added."

as if time is the limited factor in listing more than 6 names...

[GOB]

i think this thread teleported us all back to 4th grade, when even the slow kids realized the whole six days thing wasn't to be taken literally

[jonathan83]

i think this thread teleported us all back to 4th grade, when even the slow kids realized the whole six days thing wasn't to be taken literally

you arent even listening. i never said i believed the 7 days were literal.

I like the part of:
"As time permits, more names will be added."

as if time is the limited factor in listing more than 6 names...

you were still wrong

[GOB]

that wasn't directed at you.

[jonathan83]

btw blaarg, read about this: http://www.amazon.com/Language-God-Scienti...4459&sr=8-1

a book about Francis Collins...arguably one of if not the best scientist in the world (head of the human genome project). he was an atheist and turned christian. this whole book is about how he became a christian THROUGH learning how it actually makes sense with science. very interesting, even if you're not a christian.

that wasn't directed at you

alright, my bad.

[THECHICKEN]

7 days.... in god days... duh

Do you know how long a god day is? Uber long. Why do you think its taking so long to come back and get us. He's all like "hey i'll brb" and we are all "orly", he's like "ya rly, here is my son, he'll vouch". Then he's at the bar for a couple hours and is all like "oh shit i left the cake in the oven... damn its gunna be burnt"

then he comes back

[Billy]

you even saying that you know for sure earth is millions of years old is astonishing...since you're not a scientist or have any experience in the matter.

i've read arguments on both sides, and the other side does have a lot of interesting things to say (and from leading scientists as well). i remember them saying a lot about how carbon-dating uses a fixed variable that's wayyy off, and basically say it's worthless. i don't know about it, but it's just stuff i've read by researching myself a little bit.

i thought liberals were supposed to be open-minded? that's why i like staying in the middle.

Unfortunately for your argument, carbon dating is only one of many radio active decay methods used to date ancient material. Carbon, however, was discovered to be inaccurate because of all the excess carbon released into the atmosphere. Calibrating can get around this problem:

A raw BP date cannot be used directly as a calendar date, because the level of atmospheric 14C has not been strictly constant during the span of time that can be radiocarbon dated. The level is affected by variations in the cosmic ray intensity which is affected by variations in the earth's magnetosphere caused by solar storms. In addition there are substantial reservoirs of carbon in organic matter, the ocean, ocean sediments (see methane hydrate), and sedimentary rocks. Changing climate can sometimes disrupt the carbon flow between these reservoirs and the atmosphere. The level has also been affected by human activities—it was almost doubled for a short period due to atomic bomb tests in the 1950s and 1960s and has been reduced by the release of large amounts of CO2 from ancient organic sources where 14C is not present—the fossil fuels used in industry and transportation, known as the Suess effect.

wikipedia.

[Hartmann]

Huckabee did a decent job as governor (though I think we should wait 10 more ears before electing anyone from Arkansas again).

Everyone has something that "drives" their decisions, why does it matter if it's religion? Some people use their views of morality to drive their decisions, others use humanism, etc. etc.

I am just not understanding how someone can say that one person's drivers are worse than others. Why? Because your experience with religion has been bad? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm sorry you were so turned off by Christianity but it doesn't mean it's wrong, it is just wrong for you.

As far as carbon dating, when I worked at Shell we did carbon dating on drill slugs to make inferences on age. We never took the value as being exact or even extremely close for that matter. The disparity in results was just too great. We would take two drill slugs from wells that were close to each other and get completely different ages, something that shouldn't have happened considering both slugs contained the same makeup.

There are other methods for dating rocks but they are extremely expensive, not much more accurate, and used rarely.

[Testm0nkey]

i think the mix of religion and politics is harmful. like its been said it creates a bias and the fear that the leader of the state or country will be looking to signs from god about course of action to take - exaggeration, but Bush has said that he talks with god before and he looks to his spiritual advisors for guidance. its not that i hate Christianity but the way to run a country should not be based off of one person's form of faith.
and im tired of politicians having to be openly protestant to be even taken seriously. we arent living in the middle east people God shouldnt be the end all be all

[Psykopath]

7 days.... in god days... duh

Do you know how long a god day is? Uber long. Why do you think its taking so long to come back and get us. He's all like "hey i'll brb" and we are all "orly", he's like "ya rly, here is my son, he'll vouch". Then he's at the bar for a couple hours and is all like "oh shit i left the cake in the oven... damn its gunna be burnt"

then he comes back

lollin

[blaarg]

you arent even listening. i never said i believed the 7 days were literal.
you were still wrong

I'm still looking into the mentioned "scientists" and I've been searching for journal articles that they have published which have 1) validated their claim, 2) are published in a reputable scientific journal, 3) not filled with speculations which have been debunked or personal statements of their "faith in the young age of the world."
I've been unable to find any such articles which would fit the above criteria...

Don't you think that if there was any potential validity to their claims (you know evidence which isn't totally baseless) it would be lauded all over the scientific community and extensively reviewed...?

and yes I guess I was wrong by making a blanket statement that all scientists agree with the old age of the Earth, however, I think that 6 out of a lot is essentially zero...I'm sure I could find more PhDs who are committed into mental rehabilitation wards, doesn't make their views of the world potentially valid...

As for radiometric dating goes, carbon dating is used to get an estimate on age (as Hartmann already statement) but more refined dates are regularly used to get a more accurate estimate. In fact, the oldest known rocks are dated with a variety of radiometric schemes which have higher accuracies and precisions. And you are right in saying that "I am no scientist," but you don't need to be a scientist to understand the age of the earth, only knowledge from an 8th grade earth science class...

[jonathan83]

i'm not gonna try to look them up right now because i'm tired, but did you look into Francis Collins?

[blaarg]

i'm not gonna try to look them up right now because i'm tired, but did you look into Francis Collins?

from the wikisite:

In his book Collins examines and subsequently rejects creationism and Intelligent Design.

His own belief system is Theistic Evolution (TE) which he prefers to term BioLogos. BioLogos rests on the following premises: (1) The universe came into being out of nothingness, approximately 14 billion years ago, (2) Despite massive improbabilities, the properties of the universe appear to have been precisely tuned for life, (3) While the precise mechanism of the origin of life on earth remains unknown, once life arose, the process of evolution and natural selection permitted the development of biological diversity and complexity over very long periods of time, (4) Once evolution got under way no special supernatural intervention was required, (5) Humans are part of this process, sharing a common ancestor with the great apes, (6) But humans are also unique in ways that defy evolutionary explanation and point to our spiritual nature. This includes the existence of the Moral Law (the knowledge of right and wrong) and the search for God that characterizes all human cultures throughout history.

Although I don't believe in this particular interpretation, this is definitely more "plausible" interpretation of the origins of the universe/earth/etc (compared with the "theory" that the Earth is a couple thousand years old)... and I would have issue with his point that humans are unique in ways that defy evolutionary explanation (I don't think those issues he brought up defies evolutionary explanation)...

[Mommy]

I dont believe in evolution... would any of you say that Im a religious zealot...because I most certainly am not. I never go to church, I dont pray or read the Bible, never preach to others, etc.
I agree with Jonathan... evolution is still a theory and anyone who says that scientific FACT backs it up is sorely misinformed. I dont argue for creation or against evolution, but something inside of me feels that there is more to life than a random formation of quarks into atoms, atoms into molecules, molecules into compounds...etc. I dont care enough to argue.
Im immensely SICK AND FUCKING TIRED of atheistic assholes talking down to Christians for believing differently than them. Insecure maybe? Who knows.

[Billy]

I dont believe in evolution... would any of you say that Im a religious zealot...because I most certainly am not. I never go to church, I dont pray or read the Bible, never preach to others, etc.
I agree with Jonathan... evolution is still a theory and anyone who says that scientific FACT backs it up is sorely misinformed. I dont argue for creation or against evolution, but something inside of me feels that there is more to life than a random formation of quarks into atoms, atoms into molecules, molecules into compounds...etc. I dont care enough to argue.
Im immensely SICK AND FUCKING TIRED of atheistic assholes talking down to Christians for believing differently than them. Insecure maybe? Who knows.

And I'm SICK AND FUCKING TIRED of idiots who think faith is something sacred and something anyone should take seriously. Sorry, but faith translates into "yes, I'll believe what you say without question or evidence". I'm sorry, but if you asked any intelligent human being to believe in your claim without question or evidence, they would laugh at you. I'm also tired of christians who believe in an unproven god, of which there is no evidence to support the existance of, yet completely reject an idea that has quite a bit of evidence in support of it. You reject without even knowing anything about it. That baffles me.

So we have two suspects in a crime, one doesn't have anything other than far fetched circumstantial evidence to show he committed it, and the other suspect is OJ Simpson. Yeah, maybe neither of them did it, but if I have to pick one, I'm going to believe in the one that atleasts looks like he could have done it.


*(for clarification, my rant on "faith" was in response to jonathan)

[GOB]

am i the only one that notices the gigantic agnostic elephant standing on the altar?

[Testm0nkey]

brain development pretty much proves evolution. i dont understand why its called a "theory" except to not offend religious people

[Divergent Realit...]

brain development pretty much proves evolution. i dont understand why its called a "theory" except to not offend religious people

details?

[Testm0nkey]

super abridged version but the similarities between human and animal brain development and learning, the 3 regions of the brain that develop (or 3 levels of evolution in the brain because thats what it is) - first the hind brain of "reptilian brain" this is where basic life functions happen like breathing and fine muscle movement its the oldest form of the brain and the first to develope in humans. some life forms only have this part of the brain and they are the animals and insects that can see identified through fossil record as "oldest".
next layer is the mammalian brain, reptiles and "lower" animals dont have this. this layer is where emotion, attention and basic processes of learning and memory take place. in human development it is the 2nd layer to develop prenatal
last level is the neomammalian brain which is exclusive to primates. this is where the apex of human ability takes place like abstract reasoning, behavioral control and working memory. it is the last level to develop in humans and hooked up to EEG's and EMG's this is where most new neural connections take place - or brain evolution

the brain takes on that scrunched up wrinkly appearance because of evolution. you can see by fossil records that brains used to be smaller. as people/animals evolved their brains grew bigger but because environment has restrictions on how big you can grow the brain had to fold over onto itself to fit inside peoples heads (peoples head size has also increased they say to an extent).

also comparisons between human brain and animal brain shows they are very similar. the human brain changed when people started walking on two legs. instead of being "in front" the brain became "on top" and the spinal cord/brain stem had to go along with these changes including changing in shape

there are entire textbooks on this but evolution particularly brain development is really interesting

my favorite tidbit - all brain chemistry is based off a few ions these are Cl, K, Na, Ca. is it just coincidence that these are the primary ions that are in earth's oceans where the leading theory's and research say people developed out of? evolution uses what is in abundance and around, those ions were it when life sprung out of the ocean when the atmosphere became hospitable

[Hartmann]

I think it is near impossible to say anything conclusive about the brain. It's the one piece of human anatomy that we understand very little about.

[THECHICKEN]

Through time things have gotten progressively more and more complex (fossil-wise). Just by observation things have "evolved" into more complex things.

Im not sure why science can't co-exist with faith. To me, if god made a world of free will, he wouldn't be able to show him self (or else do you really have a choice if you know the right and wrong?) and thus there would have to be a world based on rules to run without his intervention. Science explores the constants of our world. Just because science shows these rules and constants does not mean they disprove god, it just means they exist.

thats why its faith... you think it was random and happened on own, or was started by ...something. Either way, the rules and constants of the world we live in remain.

[Hartmann]

I actually agree with you very much Chicken.

If God is all powerful, why is He not powerful enough to create an evolutionary process.

All God has to do is put the wheels in motion and let them happen. He knows the result but He still lets it unfold.

[Testm0nkey]

so then you would believe in evolution just that it was started by god. but to not believe in evolution at all is a stretch to me

I think it is near impossible to say anything conclusive about the brain. It's the one piece of human anatomy that we understand very little about.

we actually know a whole lot about it. what they dont know about the brain is the more philosophical questions like the mind and consciousness. but you can read up on studies about every single glial cell and mylinazation of every single neuron and neural maps and brain recovery after trauma etc etc. the "big" stuff has been discovered a long time ago. its all about application now

[Mommy]

The brain and its physical entities is still a huge mystery to scientists. There is so much they don't know. Saying otherwise is complete ignorance.

[Dogmeat]

The brain and its physical entities is still a huge mystery to scientists. There is so much they don't know. Saying otherwise is complete ignorance.

know what even more is? VAGINAS..... true story.

[Spectatrix]

we actually know a whole lot about it. what they dont know about the brain is the more philosophical questions like the mind and consciousness. but you can read up on studies about every single glial cell and mylinazation of every single neuron and neural maps and brain recovery after trauma etc etc. the "big" stuff has been discovered a long time ago. its all about application now

The brain and its physical entities is still a huge mystery to scientists. There is so much they don't know. Saying otherwise is complete ignorance.

Before a fight breaks out... you're BOTH right. Scientists know a lot about the brain, but there's also a lot of stuff they still don't know. For instance, we don't know precisely how memory is imprinted, stored, and recalled: http://www.media.rice.edu/media/NewsBot.as...8943&SnID=2

[Mommy]

I'm just saying that parts are still a mystery...unlike what Cathryn is attempting (but miserably failing) to argue

[Testm0nkey]

i never said we knew everything but its much less of a mystery than what an average person may think
but like i was saying through brain development you get a really cool picture of how evolution works

[blaarg]

Im immensely SICK AND FUCKING TIRED of atheistic assholes talking down to Christians for believing differently than them. Insecure maybe? Who knows.

I am going to say that this was directed at me....

I am not talking down to them for believing something differently than me. Notice I never become hostile to anybody who says that god was the "initial mover" and he is the creator behind evolution, yada yada yada, because I believe that if you are religious, that is the most "valid" stance.

I become hostile towards people (who are most likely Christians) who say absurd things like the Earth is 6000 years old, something that has been proven/shown EXTENSIVELY to be false, yet they rehash the same "evidence" which has already been proven to be wrong or use their personal faith as "evidence"... I would put disbelief in evolution in the same category...

I don't see how upset you can be with the above statement...the entire forum condemns the whole Westboro Baptist Church for saying that soldiers death/hurricanes/murder rates are tied to America's acceptance of homosexuality, something that everyone would say is completely and utterly false (and most likely laughable). Here is a a stance that has no scientific justification what so ever, just the church's "faith" in the cause of all these terrible things. Is it not upsetting for you to see them take that position on faith alone? Wouldn't you have a condescending attitude if you were to ever talk to one of them, or would you say "golly shucks, I'm not being open minded enough concerning their different viewpoint, maybe I'm just a little insecure..." I think the answer is obvious...

[Billy]

Through time things have gotten progressively more and more complex (fossil-wise). Just by observation things have "evolved" into more complex things.

Im not sure why science can't co-exist with faith. To me, if god made a world of free will, he wouldn't be able to show him self (or else do you really have a choice if you know the right and wrong?) and thus there would have to be a world based on rules to run without his intervention. Science explores the constants of our world. Just because science shows these rules and constants does not mean they disprove god, it just means they exist.

thats why its faith... you think it was random and happened on own, or was started by ...something. Either way, the rules and constants of the world we live in remain.

You're making the very big assumption that we have free will and that our actions are driven by a conscious "choice" other than a natural reaction driven by past and present environmental conditions.

"That's why it's faith"... That's right. Believing in a far fetched possibility simply because the belief is impossible to disprove (like aliens, or scientology). That's faith. Just like it's faith that drives suicide bombers because they foolishly believe there is some amazing place waiting for them after they have taken their own and many other people's lives. However, do not be surprised the rest of the world is not as gullible as you and will not accept the belief just because it sounds good. And do not be surprised when people get up in arms when potential policy is made because of that unfounded belief.

I wouldn't care if religious people went around saying that they think there is a god, they think their religious book is factual, they think that by following their religion they will be given X [replace X with whatever you can think of that makes you feel good] after death because they followed that religion. That's not what they say. They say they know. But you don't know. So stop pretending you do. And especially do not make social policy based on this false knowing (like banning gay marriage, stem cell research, dancing [visit Anson, Tx if you don't believe me]). And do not, I repeat, do not, elect leaders who think they know. Because if you are not wise enough to see you do not know, you are not wise enough to lead one of the world's most powerful and advanced nations.

[THECHICKEN]

You're making the very big assumption that we have free will and that our actions are driven by a conscious "choice" other than a natural reaction driven by past and present environmental conditions.

We've went over this before. Your argument over free will was not good then, and its not good now.

or let me guess, we're all too stupid to understand your point of view....

[Psykopath]

[jonathan83]

I wouldn't care if religious people went around saying that they think there is a god, they think their religious book is factual, they think that by following their religion they will be given X [replace X with whatever you can think of that makes you feel good] after death because they followed that religion. That's not what they say. They say they know. But you don't know. So stop pretending you do. And especially do not make social policy based on this false knowing (like banning gay marriage, stem cell research, dancing [visit Anson, Tx if you don't believe me]).

that's what faith is, knowing and believing, not thinking. now you know. it sounds like either 1. you had a bad experience with christians as a little boy and got all butt hurt or 2. you're jealous of people who actually have a purpose to live. normal atheists aren't as dickish as you.

and actually, i have been to anson...many times. i grew up 20 miles away. i've seen dancing, so you're wrong.

This post has been edited by jonathan83: Nov 16 2007, 09:22 PM

[theIncredibleEdi...]

OK< this hopefully ties in more with the original thought of this thread, being crazy religious zealots. I work with a woman who claims to be a Christian......yet she seems to exhibit some highly UNChristian values. For one, she is GREEDY. All she ever talks about is getting stuff for free. Example: the other day I was talking to a co-worker about getting gift cards from my Best Buy Reward Zone account, and she butts in saying, "Oh, is that my Christmas present?" This lady does this shit all the time. Just yesterday, in fact, a vendor came and offered to take ONE of us to lunch....Christian lady butted in and invited herself along (knowing the vendor would pay). She bought the highest priced thing on the menu. She talks about having god-parents for her children for the sole purpose of that person providing her children with material possessions. My point is that some of the most hard-core Bible-thumping people can be the most hypocritical. Right-wing Republicans are also a good example.

[Divergent Realit...]

OK< this hopefully ties in more with the original thought of this thread, being crazy religious zealots. I work with a woman who claims to be a Christian......yet she seems to exhibit some highly UNChristian values. For one, she is GREEDY. All she ever talks about is getting stuff for free. Example: the other day I was talking to a co-worker about getting gift cards from my Best Buy Reward Zone account, and she butts in saying, "Oh, is that my Christmas present?" This lady does this shit all the time. Just yesterday, in fact, a vendor came and offered to take ONE of us to lunch....Christian lady butted in and invited herself along (knowing the vendor would pay). She bought the highest priced thing on the menu. She talks about having god-parents for her children for the sole purpose of that person providing her children with material possessions. My point is that some of the most hard-core Bible-thumping people can be the most hypocritical. Right-wing Republicans are also a good example.

no no.

thats not greed. its god's reward to her.

[jonathan83]

OK< this hopefully ties in more with the original thought of this thread, being crazy religious zealots. I work with a woman who claims to be a Christian......yet she seems to exhibit some highly UNChristian values. For one, she is GREEDY. All she ever talks about is getting stuff for free. Example: the other day I was talking to a co-worker about getting gift cards from my Best Buy Reward Zone account, and she butts in saying, "Oh, is that my Christmas present?" This lady does this shit all the time. Just yesterday, in fact, a vendor came and offered to take ONE of us to lunch....Christian lady butted in and invited herself along (knowing the vendor would pay). She bought the highest priced thing on the menu. She talks about having god-parents for her children for the sole purpose of that person providing her children with material possessions. My point is that some of the most hard-core Bible-thumping people can be the most hypocritical. Right-wing Republicans are also a good example.

yeah that's a shame, but christians believe that you can still be a bad person (since all humans are "bad") and still go to heaven. just as long as you believe jesus was the son of god and died for your sins. of course people take advantage of this and just sin and repent later that day..but then one has to wonder if that person is truly a christian. christians are bad at being hypocritical, but i think every religion has this problem.

[blaarg]

that's what faith is, knowing and believing, not thinking. now you know. it sounds like either 1. you had a bad experience with christians as a little boy and got all butt hurt or 2. you're jealous of people who actually have a purpose to live.

A couple of things...

The same could be said about you having a bad experience with atheists and (using your words) "got all butt hurt." This may or may not be valid, but regardless it is irrelevant. I don't think that personal attacks add anything to a conversation/discussion.

Also, on the second part: "you're jealous of people who actually have a purpose to live." For one, if you believe that there is a god who controls everything and gives you that purpose, wouldn't they also be giving him a purpose as well? Or if you think that your god was an initial mover and isn't directly coordinating all your actions, then wouldn't it be you (more directly your free will) giving yourself the purpose to live, in that case, why couldn't he (and his free will) give himself a purpose to live?

I don't see why you need to believe in god/be religious to have a purpose for living. Quite the contrary, I think if you are atheist and only think that you have this time on Earth to do something wouldn't it give you more of a purpose to live (because you only get one shot to do something).

[Psykopath]

yeah that's a shame, but christians believe that you can still be a bad person (since all humans are "bad") and still go to heaven. just as long as you believe jesus was the son of god and died for your sins. of course people take advantage of this and just sin and repent later that day..but then one has to wonder if that person is truly a christian. christians are bad at being hypocritical, but i think every religion has this problem.

One of the most hypocritical aspects of any religion...period.

I'm sure Jesus Christ himself would disagree with such BS.
Living a "good" life (varying shades of good, depending on so many variables...but that discussion shall be saved for another thread) requires more than just accepting one statement as personal fact.

[jonathan83]

A couple of things...

The same could be said about you having a bad experience with atheists and (using your words) "got all butt hurt." This may or may not be valid, but regardless it is irrelevant. I don't think that personal attacks add anything to a conversation/discussion.

Also, on the second part: "you're jealous of people who actually have a purpose to live." For one, if you believe that there is a god who controls everything and gives you that purpose, wouldn't they also be giving him a purpose as well? Or if you think that your god was an initial mover and isn't directly coordinating all your actions, then wouldn't it be you (more directly your free will) giving yourself the purpose to live, in that case, why couldn't he (and his free will) give himself a purpose to live?

I don't see why you need to believe in god/be religious to have a purpose for living. Quite the contrary, I think if you are atheist and only think that you have this time on Earth to do something wouldn't it give you more of a purpose to live (because you only get one shot to do something).

actually that was only directed at billy, not anyone else. he's just being a troll as usual.

[jonathan83]

One of the most hypocritical aspects of any religion...period.

I'm sure Jesus Christ himself would disagree with such BS.

not really. of course he would WANT people to live better..because he said so. but he also told a murderer (on the cross next to him) that he would go to heaven, because he asked jesus to save him and bc he believed.
we are supposed to "be more like jesus" etc, but "good works" does NOT get you to heaven, according to christianity. other religions require good works, but christianity doesn't.

Living a "good" life (varying shades of good, depending on so many variables...but that discussion shall be saved for another thread) requires more than just accepting one statement as personal fact.

yes, you're right. but, even if a person is the kindest person in the world, but doesn't accept jesus, that still won't get them to heaven.

This post has been edited by jonathan83: Nov 16 2007, 11:34 PM

[Psykopath]

not really. of course he would WANT people to live better..because he said so. but he also told a murderer (on the cross next to him) that he would go to heaven, because he asked jesus to save him and bc he believed.
we are supposed to "be more like jesus" etc, but "good works" does NOT get you to heaven, according to christianity. other religions require good works, but christianity doesn't.
yes, you're right. but, even if a person is the kindest person in the world, but doesn't accept jesus, that still won't get them to heaven.

From what you're describing, I'm HAPPY I won't be going to a heaven that could very well be populated with the likes of Hitler, Stalin, etc.

I'll enjoy my afterlife, the one I earn during the course of my life.

This post has been edited by Psykopath: Nov 16 2007, 11:39 PM

[jonathan83]

From what you're describing, I'm HAPPY I won't be going to a heaven that could very well be populated with the likes of Hitler, Stalin, etc.

I'll enjoy my afterlife, the one I earn during the course of my life.

hey, if hitler truly asked god for forgiveness...that's between him and god. nobody knows but them. and hey, i could be wrong. god is the only one who can judge.

[FORSAKENR320]

not really. of course he would WANT people to live better..because he said so. but he also told a murderer (on the cross next to him) that he would go to heaven, because he asked jesus to save him and bc he believed.
we are supposed to "be more like jesus" etc, but "good works" does NOT get you to heaven, according to christianity. other religions require good works, but christianity doesn't.
yes, you're right. but, even if a person is the kindest person in the world, but doesn't accept jesus, that still won't get them to heaven.

i understand what you are saying, and to me it makes sense. i've mentioned on here that i once had a pair of mormons admit that jesus was counter productive to christianity based on the fact that god has heaven as a reward system. "be good, you go to heaven" with jesus "forgiving" everyones sins no matter what they are, as long as you truly repent, what motivation do you have? sure when that criminal was on that cross about to die and jesus forgave him, is that all it should take? 5 seconds of being scared out of your mind, during a time period where you are about to die and OBVIOUSLY can't HELP but regret the choices that put you there.... should that be enough to deem you a good person? aqccording to jesus, yes. according to the rest of the bible, no.

[jonathan83]

should that be enough to deem you a good person? according to jesus, yes. according to the rest of the bible, no.

pretty much, yeah. and since jesus came, he made the new covenant, which pretty much bypasses the rest of the bible.