Lethal Injection Cruel & Unusual? Options

[impala454]

I don't have a link but it shouldn't be difficult to find. Apparently here in Texas we're halting executions because some dipshit judge decided to rule lethal injection as "cruel & unusual punishment". WTF is cruel & unusual about it!!??

[Jim]

Maybe we forgot to tell him we alcohol swab the arm before we do the injection?

[impala454]

yeah the radio is talking about it and the host goes "i guess we'll have to stop all hospitals and doctors from using needles since it's cruel & unusual"

[Oasis]

Who gives a fuck? We're killing losers

[Jim]

Who gives a fuck? We're killing losers

But one out of many may, MAY, be innocent. We have to stop all of it to save the one!

[cmac]

death penalty is cruel and unusual

[impala454]

it was even more cruel & unusual for these people to murder/rape multiple people

[The Fanatic]

Cmac got it. The argument is not whether the method of execution is cruel and unusual but rather the practice itself. (I think most people would agree that lethal injection is probably one of the most humane ways to execute an individual.) I personally don't think the practice of executing individuals is cruel and unusual but I disagree with implementing that punishment in most cases (serial killers and certain other criminals need to be put to death). There are probably better and cheaper ways (appeals are expensive) to punish most convicts who would normally be executed. Just my opinion.

[Hartmann]

I say put the convicts to work like they used to. And I mean real work, not stamping out license plates.

[impala454]

Cmac got it. The argument is not whether the method of execution is cruel and unusual but rather the practice itself.

no, it's actually about whether or not lethal injection itself is cruel and unusual, here i found an article:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5181963.html

AUSTIN — The Texas Court of Criminal Appeals on Tuesday halted today's scheduled execution of a Honduran man and asked the state prison system to respond to questions about whether lethal injection is unconstitutionally cruel and unusual punishment.

[The Fanatic]

Hmm, interesting. My point still stands, I can't see how that punishment would be ruled to be cruel and unusual unless the courts found that all forms of execution fell under that blanket statement.

And yes, I agree Hartmann. Put them to work in the cotton fields!

[impala454]

gah and i posted the article and everything...

On Sept. 25, the U.S. Supreme Court decided to review a Kentucky appeal claiming the three-chemical combination that's also used in Texas executions causes unnecessary pain shortly before death.

heaven forbid some murderer feel some pain before dying.

[cmac]

I say put the convicts to work like they used to. And I mean real work, not stamping out license plates.

I agree with this. I think that jails are overcrowded. I think that there are waaaaaay too many inmates who or guilty of victimless crimes who are in jail. Take those out and we can keep the killers in for life. I also think that jails shouldn't be luxury places to hang out though. Jails are often steps up for several prisoners and that needs to change. People shouldn't want to go to jail.

[Hartmann]

And yes, I agree Hartmann. Put them to work in the cotton fields!

I'm completely serious. As a country, we complain that we have no one that wants to do the dirty work and that our blue collar work force has dwindled, just use the convicts. Pay them less than minimum wage to do jobs that are usually filled with illegal immigrants (strawberry picking comes to mind) and we've solved two problems in one swift move.

We move inmates that have good behavior to better facilities (then they escape), so give them a slightly better job instead.

[The Fanatic]

I'm completely serious. As a country, we complain that we have no one that wants to do the dirty work and that our blue collar work force has dwindled, just use the convicts. Pay them less than minimum wage to do jobs that are usually filled with illegal immigrants (strawberry picking comes to mind) and we've solved two problems in one swift move.

We move inmates that have good behavior to better facilities (then they escape), so give them a slightly better job instead.

I am also serious. I completely agree with you.

While we are at it, let's take away luxuries like the TV.

This post has been edited by Dr. Gonzo: Oct 3 2007, 08:44 AM

[Hartmann]

I am also serious. I completely agree with you.

While we are at it, let's take away luxuries like the TV.

Amen.

This Ted Koppel (who I don't like) special on the prison system paints it as this horrible, horrible place, yet these guys have cable and access to the internet.

[impala454]

i like how that former general dude in arizona has that big tent prison out in the desert. i still maintain though that if someone does something heinous enough (multiple murders, rapes, etc) they deserve the death penalty.

[cupcake]

death penalty is cruel and unusual

someone move this to the "further pussification" thread...

[pebkac]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_inject...guments_against

The argument is that inmates are actually in excruciating pain but cannot express it because one of the drugs paralyzes them.

[impala454]

/tear

[Spectatrix]

I don't have much pity for convicted murderers and rapists, but I do believe that we have a moral obligation to ensure that their state-administered deaths are not exceedingly painful. We should not be in the business of torture.

Now I don't know for sure whether lethal injection is excrutiatingly painful, as opponents claim. I'd like to see more research done into this.

[impala454]

well imho no real research is needed. if they die quickly, then they didn't have pain for long.

[RitalinJunkie]

bring back the firing squad....its cheaper....

one of my main problems with execution is that it is soo expensive. With all the appeals and such it ends up being more expensive than keeping the guy in jail for life.

I agree that execution needs to be as least painful as possible, because like Spec said (i believe) we are not in the torture business, however, i cant bring myself to feel sorry that some child raping murderer may get a "booboo" while we off the sick shit.

Hell....why not just bolt gun the sonovabitch. It's humane enough for animals, and animals get better representation in the law than people a lot of times, it seems.

[THECHICKEN]

This will be over-ruled... i would assume

The death penalty IS constitutional, so the only way that judges can try to be legislatures is to rule the PRACTICE cruel and unusual... which leads to shit like this.

This is just like the judge telling the military it can't do military training because of the (speculative) effect on whales (hope this doesn't get me banned again...lol)

This is something that is POLICY more than anything, and legislature should be the one making the decision.

And im AGAINST the death penalty

[cupcake]

I don't have much pity for convicted murderers and rapists, but I do believe that we have a moral obligation to ensure that their state-administered deaths are not exceedingly painful. We should not be in the business of torture.

Now I don't know for sure whether lethal injection is excrutiatingly painful, as opponents claim. I'd like to see more research done into this.

I agree to an extent. Death does not have to be painful. However, we like to make ourselves feel good about doing dirty deeds (which is REALLY where all this is coming from).

I mean, if we truly cared about a quick and painless death we would blindfold them, and stick a .45 to their temple (at 14 cents a round mind you). The condemned would never feel a thing.

But that is gruesome, and we would harbor horrible feelings seeing grey matter splattered everywhere after that ear-ringing BANG...

the cleanest method we can execute someone is by lethal injection (though I'm sure it's far more painful...like burning and shit). but hey, it makes us feel better because there isn't a huge mess of shit to clean up!

[RitalinJunkie]

the cleanest method we can execute someone is by lethal injection (though I'm sure it's far more painful...like burning and shit). but hey, it makes us feel better because there isn't a huge mess of shit to clean up!

I know this is kind of a brandon thing to say....but, you know, all you need is a tile floor, a drain, and a hose. Convict dies quickly in a relatively humane way, clean up is easy, and its really cheap.

[cupcake]

tarp...just wrap that fucker up and dump it all in a coffin!

[pebkac]

I agree to an extent. Death does not have to be painful. However, we like to make ourselves feel good about doing dirty deeds (which is REALLY where all this is coming from).

I mean, if we truly cared about a quick and painless death we would blindfold them, and stick a .45 to their temple (at 14 cents a round mind you). The condemned would never feel a thing.

But that is gruesome, and we would harbor horrible feelings seeing grey matter splattered everywhere after that ear-ringing BANG...

the cleanest method we can execute someone is by lethal injection (though I'm sure it's far more painful...like burning and shit). but hey, it makes us feel better because there isn't a huge mess of shit to clean up!

Actually, that's why they give you the drug that paralyzes you. Without it, the inmate would be having all kinds of seizures.

[THECHICKEN]

I agree to an extent. Death does not have to be painful. However, we like to make ourselves feel good about doing dirty deeds (which is REALLY where all this is coming from).

I mean, if we truly cared about a quick and painless death we would blindfold them, and stick a .45 to their temple (at 14 cents a round mind you). The condemned would never feel a thing.

But that is gruesome, and we would harbor horrible feelings seeing grey matter splattered everywhere after that ear-ringing BANG...

the cleanest method we can execute someone is by lethal injection (though I'm sure it's far more painful...like burning and shit). but hey, it makes us feel better because there isn't a huge mess of shit to clean up!

They put them to sleep before putting in the death medicine (because without being asleep it would hurt like a son-of-a-bitch)

[cupcake]

They put them to sleep before putting in the death medicine (because without being asleep it would hurt like a son-of-a-bitch)

right, but recently there was a case where it didn't take and the condemned was visibly in pain and just hanging out for half an hour. I believe that is where the contreversy is stemming from. (admittedly haven't read the articles posted, as I've been following that botched execution).

I hate incompetance.

[pebkac]

They put them to sleep before putting in the death medicine (because without being asleep it would hurt like a son-of-a-bitch)

The argument is that the pain killers are extremely short term and that the drug that paralyzes you dillutes it causing it to be ineffective and the inmate is unable to exhibit pain because he's paralyzed.

I'm not a doctor, so I can't tell you if that's right or wrong, but that's the argument.

[impala454]

tarp...just wrap that fucker up and dump it all in a coffin!

hell, they could even charge a fee to let someone else shoot the guy and make big bucks!! No tellin what some rich redneck or ghetto gangsta rappa would pay to legally shoot some dude in the face.

[Testm0nkey]

death penalty is cruel and unusual

yes



whats cruel and unusual is a court system that allows repeat offenders to rape again and again

i dont get how people think its a good idea to lock a person up for 10 years and give them no therapy, medication or work training that they need. so people want them to go back on the streets with no skill, no money and no way to make a living for themselves without dealing with the issues that got them there in the first place. you can make jail as scary as you want they will return to crime
theres a reason why some of the most progressive jails have the lowest repeat offender percentages

[impala454]

yeah that's it... it's the court system's fault that people get raped... wow.

[Testm0nkey]

if they let a rapist out after 3 years yes

[impala454]

heaven forbid the criminal be blamed... yeah this definitely needs to get moved to the pussification thread.

[Testm0nkey]

rapist is blamed thats why hes in prison. to allow him back on the streets before he finishes his term is the blame for him raping again because if he was still serving his sentence like he should be the person wouldnt have been raped

[pebkac]

I think what Cathryn is trying to say is that we focus too much on punishment rather than rehabilitation.

In Texas, over 60% of the people that are in prison have been there before. Justice is a big industry. If prisons were set up to prevent people from coming back, a lot of people would be out of jobs and a lot of companies would be out a lot of free or very cheap labor. Therefore, there's a lot of sociologists who argue that our prisons are intentionally set up to keep people coming back, and I think there's some truth to that if not on a conscious level then on an unconscious level (talking about the prison administrators that is).

[Testm0nkey]

that was my first point

[impala454]

I think what Cathryn is trying to say is that we focus too much on punishment rather than rehabilitation.

In Texas, over 60% of the people that are in prison have been there before. Justice is a big industry. If prisons were set up to prevent people from coming back, a lot of people would be out of jobs and a lot of companies would be out a lot of free or very cheap labor. Therefore, there's a lot of sociologists who argue that our prisons are intentionally set up to keep people coming back, and I think there's some truth to that if not on a conscious level then on an unconscious level (talking about the prison administrators that is).

wow... so instead of just using the simple logic that perhaps those who commit imprisonable crimes are prone to do it again, we blame the prison system for making them want to come back so we can have a few jobs!??!

wow.

or we blame the prison system for not rehabilitating people!?!?? geezus.

these are the liberal views that baffle me to this day... (and the whole point of the pussification thread). lets blame everyone else for our problems

punishment is there for a reason. if the punishment isn't harsh enough, the person who commits a crime will do it again because they're not afraid of the punishment.

look at countries where they publicly cane people who vandalize a car, their crime/prison levels are virtually zero.

[Spectatrix]

I think it's a little far-fetched to claim that the prison system is deliberately set up to keep folks returning. The prisons are already overcrowded -- I don't think they need the help.

But I do think that we need to focus more on rehabilitative efforts. Yes, there are asshats out there that are going to continue to kill, rape, pillage, and deal drugs even after extensive rehab, but there are many more that would benefit from rehab. Yes, punish them too. That's what their time in prison is all about. Restriction of freedom, lack of luxuries, all that is punishment. But let's make the most of that time and give some of the prisoners training, therapy, etc. in an attempt to mold them into halfway decent citizens.

It's certainly not the prison's fault if someone gets out and returns to their old habits, but they can probably do more than they do currently to prevent relapse.

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: Oct 3 2007, 01:58 PM

[impala454]

haha "pillage"... you damn renaissance whore

[Spectatrix]

Rape the women, kill the childen, pillage, plunder, and raze the village.

[cupcake]

if one does not commit a motral crime (which should be dealt with by trading their mortality), then I feel they should undergo counseling and rehab while in confinement. otherwise all you're doing is creating a felon who has more issues and bitterness than he previously did.

none of this has jack shit to do with humane vs. inhumane executions.

[THECHICKEN]

Its interesting that we have a society that wants to publicly shame and condemn people for their actions in order to prevent them from doing it again, yet there is no public "welcome back to society for doing your time" ceremony that removes the stigma of being a criminal. That stigma lends to not allowing ex-cons reintegrating back into society and bettering themselves.

Total rehabilitation without punishment is useless because it doesn't shame and change the criminals viewpoint, but pure punishment without rehab leads to harding of criminals and making the reintergration that much harder.

Yes its the criminals fault, but unless we want to bury every law violator in a hole and forget about them, we need to make sure to help them to not hurt society again.

[impala454]

well the bottom line is prison is nicer than a lot of people's lives. so, regardless of whether or not there's rehabilitation in the prison, having clean clothes, food, a place to sleep, and mild entertainment and other services is incentive enough to come back. not to mention that no doubt a lot of people gain 'reputations' in prison and are more socially accepted by their fellow prisoners.

i still say the desert tent prison the dude runs in arizona is the best way to handle these people.

[THECHICKEN]

well the bottom line is prison is nicer than a lot of people's lives. so, regardless of whether or not there's rehabilitation in the prison, having clean clothes, food, a place to sleep, and mild entertainment and other services is incentive enough to come back. not to mention that no doubt a lot of people gain 'reputations' in prison and are more socially accepted by their fellow prisoners.

i still say the desert tent prison the dude runs in arizona is the best way to handle these people.

Prison is nicer....

wow

...

ever been? or are you just going off what rush tells you on talk radio?

[Psykopath]

well the bottom line is prison is nicer than a lot of people's lives. so, regardless of whether or not there's rehabilitation in the prison, having clean clothes, food, a place to sleep, and mild entertainment and other services is incentive enough to come back. not to mention that no doubt a lot of people gain 'reputations' in prison and are more socially accepted by their fellow prisoners.

i still say the desert tent prison the dude runs in arizona is the best way to handle these people.

godDAMMIT!

I'm seconding Seth on this one. Jeez, you are actually serious when you say prison is "nice"?

[impala454]

do you really believe that every criminal whose been in jail goes back home and eats three square meals a day? or has a bed to sleep in at night? or gets to watch tv? or have someone else wash their clothes & sheets? you tell me.

godDAMMIT!

I'm seconding Seth on this one. Jeez, you are actually serious when you say prison is "nice"?

where did i f'n say that prison is nice?

[Psykopath]

do you really believe that every criminal whose been in jail goes back home and eats three square meals a day? or has a bed to sleep in at night? or gets to watch tv? or have someone else wash their clothes & sheets? you tell me.
where did i f'n say that prison is nice?

you said it was nicer than a lot of people's lives.

How can being locked in a cage and having zero freedoms be nicer than even being a fucking bum on the street?

[Testm0nkey]

they wash their own sheets mostly. laundry seems to be the funnest place to work! they strip the beds themself and most have "jobs" or "chores". if you dont you are in lockdown 23hrs a day. man id love that!
and yes most have food to return home to, tv and beds. prisons arent 100% homeless people or mountain folk from west virginia

you are forgetting that criminals are still human beings and have the very basic rights attributed to them

[blaarg]

[blaarg]

Its interesting that we have a society that wants to publicly shame and condemn people for their actions in order to prevent them from doing it again, yet there is no public "welcome back to society for doing your time" ceremony that removes the stigma of being a criminal. That stigma lends to not allowing ex-cons reintegrating back into society and bettering themselves.

I really believe that this is the biggest problem, reintegrating ex-cons into society is so fucking hard. I have an uncle who committed a felony and did time (I think we all have one of these in the extended family) and it has been a ridiculous struggle for him to find an ok job and housing that would accept a felon. Yeah he is living with his punishment, but goddamn give them a chance after a while. I think that this is a BIG reason why 60% of the people in the "slammer" are at least second timers...

Edit:: This has nothing to do with capital punishment cases obvious, because they should be behind bars fo' life.

[impala454]

you said it was nicer than a lot of people's lives.

How can being locked in a cage and having zero freedoms be nicer than even being a fucking bum on the street?

exactly like i said! here i'll quote myself from a couple posts back:

do you really believe that every criminal whose been in jail goes back home and eats three square meals a day? or has a bed to sleep in at night? or gets to watch tv? or have someone else wash their clothes & sheets? you tell me.

[THECHICKEN]

exactly like i said! here i'll quote myself from a couple posts back:

People who get to watch tv have them given as gifts from family... which if they can't have it out of prison they won't get it IN prison.

the meals are horidendous, but true... they get to eat..
HOWEVER, given that ass poundings, stabbings, and SLAVES OF OTHER INMATES are the risk of getting PRISON FOOD, i doubt its a good trade

I mean honestly.. you state the small things that they could still get while free (harder maybe, but the alternative of getting in prison means you get to go through hell on earth)

I would simply disagree that any but the most progressive and/or minimum security prisons could be classified as "nicer" than some peoples lives... even homeless (considering homeless can go to shelters and soup kitchens without the risk of ass raping)

[THECHICKEN]

I really believe that this is the biggest problem, reintegrating ex-cons into society is so fucking hard. I have an uncle who committed a felony and did time (I think we all have one of these in the extended family) and it has been a ridiculous struggle for him to find an ok job and housing that would accept a felon. Yeah he is living with his punishment, but goddamn give them a chance after a while. I think that this is a BIG reason why 60% of the people in the "slammer" are at least second timers...

Edit:: This has nothing to do with capital punishment cases obvious, because they should be behind bars fo' life.

Yeah i know, i kinda derailed the thread a little going off what cat and impala said about prison life... sorry

[pebkac]

wow... so instead of just using the simple logic that perhaps those who commit imprisonable crimes are prone to do it again, we blame the prison system for making them want to come back so we can have a few jobs!??!

wow.

or we blame the prison system for not rehabilitating people!?!?? geezus.

these are the liberal views that baffle me to this day... (and the whole point of the pussification thread). lets blame everyone else for our problems

punishment is there for a reason. if the punishment isn't harsh enough, the person who commits a crime will do it again because they're not afraid of the punishment.

look at countries where they publicly cane people who vandalize a car, their crime/prison levels are virtually zero.

Yeah. That's right. Numerous criminologists have documented what I just said many times. Criminologists refer to jail as "graduate school for criminals." I can name you concept after concept as to why our current system is a bad way to rehabilitate people. And you're just going to go with your gut on this one?

Answer me this. Why is it that countries with less punishment (and have no death penalties at all) have
lower crime rates than us as well?

well the bottom line is prison is nicer than a lot of people's lives. so, regardless of whether or not there's rehabilitation in the prison, having clean clothes, food, a place to sleep, and mild entertainment and other services is incentive enough to come back. not to mention that no doubt a lot of people gain 'reputations' in prison and are more socially accepted by their fellow prisoners.

If prison isn't so bad, what keeps you from going there? You get clean clothes and three (terrible) meals a day. Of course you do also have to live in constant fear of getting raped/beat up/killed. And then there's the whole not being able to see the outside world thing. But jail isn't so bad, right?

As for the TV thing, ask anyone who's ever worked in a prison. TV works on prisoners just as well as it does on children. Its the most effective form of riot control ever invented.

[GOB]

Answer me this. Why is it that countries with less punishment (and have no death penalties at all) have lower crime rates than us as well?

what would mexico's crime rate look like if their legal system was a mirror image of ours?

a increase in law enforcement in any area means "more" criminal activity because it's actually being reported and documented.

[impala454]

Yeah. That's right. Numerous criminologists have documented what I just said many times. Criminologists refer to jail as "graduate school for criminals." I can name you concept after concept as to why our current system is a bad way to rehabilitate people.

name them

And you're just going to go with your gut on this one?

i'm going with what makes sense. while we're asking questions of each other, tell me this: What keeps you from stealing a car? Robbing a bank? Driving 100mph on the freeway? Not paying your taxes? Driving through a light that just turned red?

Answer me this. Why is it that countries with less punishment (and have no death penalties at all) have
lower crime rates than us as well?

which countries have lower rates with less punishment?

If prison isn't so bad, what keeps you from going there?

ok this is the third time i'm going to say this now. I did not ever, ever, ever, not once in this thread say prison is not a bad place. I never said I thought it would be enjoyable. I never said I thought it would be nice. What I said is that there are people who don't get 3 square meals a day. There are people who don't sleep in a bed at night. There are people who don't get to watch TV. By having prisons which provide these (not to mention a social atmosphere and hierarchy) we diminish the "punishment" of sending someone to jail. Someone like this has nothing at all to lose by commiting crimes.

You get clean clothes and three (terrible) meals a day.

that's interesting that you think you have any fuckin clue as to what my three daily meals are.

Of course you do also have to live in constant fear of getting raped/beat up/killed.

yah i'm really sure murders, rapes, and daily beatings are just a regular occurance. I think you've been watching a little too much TV.

And then there's the whole not being able to see the outside world thing. But jail isn't so bad, right?

these repeat offender people who have nothing to lose by commiting crimes, have completely rejected the outside world. nothing some psychobabble bitch has to say to them is going to change that. besides, they get to sit and watch TV and read newspapers and magazines and all kindsa shit. they probably know more about the goings on in the outside world than your average people who aren't in jail.

As for the TV thing, ask anyone who's ever worked in a prison. TV works on prisoners just as well as it does on children. Its the most effective form of riot control ever invented.

oh yeah that's wonderful. "hey we can't control these inmates so lets just let them watch TV". great reasoning behind allowing TV. an assault rifle is a pretty effective means of riot control too.

[THECHICKEN]

Impala, do you.... is that really.... are seri...

Nevermind, sadly i know the answer


And i love how you put "social hierarchy" as a Plus in prison LOLOL

As in "you go hurt that person, or smuggle "x" or else we hurt you bad"
-Real good social hierarchy

And yes, beatings, rapings, etc. are very common in prison. As is fraud, and black mail. The "media" isn't making that up... im sorry if you think so.

[impala454]

And i love how you put "social hierarchy" as a Plus in prison LOLOL

As in "you go hurt that person, or smuggle "x" or else we hurt you bad"
-Real good social hierarchy

is it really that frigging insane for you or anyone else to have the notion that to some people, jail is a way of life? and that perhaps if jails didn't provide 3 meals a day, and clean clothes, and a place to sleep, and TV, that people might not want to go there?!?

And yes, beatings, rapings, etc. are very common in prison. As is fraud, and black mail. The "media" isn't making that up... im sorry if you think so.

lets see it. start linkin. lets see all these rapes and beatings and murders that occur in prison on an apparently daily basis. come on, it should be easy to find it's so common. i mean, jails are just giant concrete boxes with no guards and no bars, it's like a giant murderous rapist free for all!

[THECHICKEN]

is it really that frigging insane for you or anyone else to have the notion that to some people, jail is a way of life? and that perhaps if jails didn't provide 3 meals a day, and clean clothes, and a place to sleep, and TV, that people might not want to go there?!?
lets see it. start linkin. lets see all these rapes and beatings and murders that occur in prison on an apparently daily basis. come on, it should be easy to find it's so common. i mean, jails are just giant concrete boxes with no guards and no bars, it's like a giant murderous rapist free for all!

How about this... you link me up with the info on how inmates "WANT TO GO TO JAIL" to have shitty food, prison clothes (lol) and a horrible place to sleep (because a cell with another person and a toilet that has no privacy is so much better than a homeless shelter)... all at the cost of violent attacks, rape, robbery, and fraud...

Link me up with these statistics my man, i can't wait to see how many inmates go back to jail BECAUSE THEY WANT TOO, because its SO EASY, and not because they are in a vicious cycle that doesn't let them out... show me how our system is TOO EASY

Oh and type "prison violence statistics" in google and it'll bring up the federal reports on prisons. It only has rapes (which are scary alone [since the number of reported attacks is much lower]) and homicide rates.

Other than that im not copy pasting the obvious.

[blaarg]

is it really that frigging insane for you or anyone else to have the notion that to some people, jail is a way of life? and that perhaps if jails didn't provide 3 meals a day, and clean clothes, and a place to sleep, and TV, that people might not want to go there?!?

yes I am sure there are people, but no way is this remotely the standard.

[blaarg]

Answer me this. Why is it that countries with less punishment (and have no death penalties at all) have
lower crime rates than us as well?

I thought about this actually for a while and found some UN statistics on crime on a country by country basis
Here is the the Link

Anyways, here are the stats (# of reports per 100,000 population) with our crime statistics compared to mostly our European counterparts who have abolished the death penalty (also with some other countries of note, like Mexico):

Country Homicide Assaults Rape

USA 4.55 805.21 32.05
Australia 2.04 735.02 81.41
Canada 1.59 725.73 78.08
Denmark 1.09 183.58 9.31
England 1.61 851.60 16.23
France 1.78 180.79 14.36
Germany 1.17 142.23 9.12
Italy 1.29 50.38 4.05
Mexico 14.11 260.39 13.33
Netherlands 1.15 277.54 10.36
Poland 5.61 84.73 6.20
Romania 2.50 41.83 4.96
Spain 1.25 228.99 14.34
Sweden 1.18 125.31 2.86

So I feel like it is safe to say that our European counterparts (which, one might assume DOES have similar law enforcement #'s as us, since we are all (mostly) developed countries) who have the death penalty abolished have less crime. Granted there are some exceptions. An interesting side note is that Japan (where the death penalty is legal) has DRAMATICALLY lower crime than all of these countries mentioned, so *shrug*

EDIT:: Well the formatting fucked up from copy/pasting, but if you are careful you can view the stats ok...

[impala454]

How about this... you link me up with the info on how inmates "WANT TO GO TO JAIL" to have shitty food, prison clothes (lol) and a horrible place to sleep (because a cell with another person and a toilet that has no privacy is so much better than a homeless shelter)... all at the cost of violent attacks, rape, robbery, and fraud...

Link me up with these statistics my man, i can't wait to see how many inmates go back to jail BECAUSE THEY WANT TOO, because its SO EASY, and not because they are in a vicious cycle that doesn't let them out... show me how our system is TOO EASY

you guys have successfully misread every post i've put in this thread. you keep reading further than what I"m putting down. I never once said people want to go to jail. I don't have to link anything... the proof is in the pudding, you guys were the ones that posted that 60% of the prison pop is repeat offenders. the mofos obviously don't feel that jail is a bad enough punishment to stop commiting crimes once they get out!

Oh and type "prison violence statistics" in google and it'll bring up the federal reports on prisons. It only has rapes (which are scary alone [since the number of reported attacks is much lower]) and homicide rates.

if it's so easy to find why the hell didn't you just link it or quote it? geez am I gonna have to debate with myself now?

[impala454]

I thought about this actually for a while and found some UN statistics on crime on a country by country basis
Here is the the Link

Anyways, here are the stats (# of reports per 100,000 population) with our crime statistics compared to mostly our European counterparts who have abolished the death penalty (also with some other countries of note, like Mexico):

Country Homicide Assaults Rape

USA 4.55 805.21 32.05
Australia 2.04 735.02 81.41
Canada 1.59 725.73 78.08
Denmark 1.09 183.58 9.31
England 1.61 851.60 16.23
France 1.78 180.79 14.36
Germany 1.17 142.23 9.12
Italy 1.29 50.38 4.05
Mexico 14.11 260.39 13.33
Netherlands 1.15 277.54 10.36
Poland 5.61 84.73 6.20
Romania 2.50 41.83 4.96
Spain 1.25 228.99 14.34
Sweden 1.18 125.31 2.86

So I feel like it is safe to say that our European counterparts (which, one might assume DOES have similar law enforcement #'s as us, since we are all (mostly) developed countries) who have the death penalty abolished have less crime. Granted there are some exceptions. An interesting side note is that Japan (where the death penalty is legal) has DRAMATICALLY lower crime than all of these countries mentioned, so *shrug*

EDIT:: Well the formatting fucked up from copy/pasting, but if you are careful you can view the stats ok...

are you kidding me??? are you going to sit there and argue 2 murders difference per 100,000 people!?? and as far as stuff like rapes go, yeah of course those will skew our direction, every 14 year old girl who loses her virginity to some guy she lied to about her age gets a successful rape conviction. there's a ton of other factors as well, like population density, # of major metro areas, culture diversity, amount of law enforcement, etc. not to mention how you found skewed numbers from several large countries like japan

[blaarg]

I am curious that if the #'s backed your claim if you would have the same criticism...

[impala454]

i wouldn't argue over such a small difference, no

er, i wouldn't look at those numbers and come out and say "OMG the U.S. is by far way more violent, terrible, crime ridden, etc" and go and start tryin to change policy.

[blaarg]

and yes, 2 or 3 murders per 100,000 is substantial.
for instance in Canada that means 1000 less murders a year...

[impala454]

that data you linked is an 11MB excel file, you can't have possibly gone through it well enough to come to that conclusion anyhow

[blaarg]

that data you linked is an 11MB excel file, you can't have possibly gone through it well enough to come to that conclusion anyhow

I was looking at the 7th survey. And you can sort by country.

[impala454]

and yes, 2 or 3 murders per 100,000 is substantial.
for instance in Canada that means 1000 less murders a year...

I understand where you're coming from, I just don't think you're looking at the end result of the data and what it really means.

with 4.55 murders per 100,000 means that you have a 0.0046% chance of being murdered
lets say we dropped it to 2.55, that means you now have a 0.0026% chance of being murdered.

yeah, with the first value it's nearly twice the chances !! but it's akin to saying you have twice the chances of winning the lottery by buying two tickets.

[blaarg]

er, i wouldn't look at those numbers and come out and say "OMG the U.S. is by far way more violent, terrible, crime ridden, etc" and go and start tryin to change policy.

Yeah, I never said anything remotely near that as well:

So I feel like it is safe to say that our European counterparts (which, one might assume DOES have similar law enforcement #'s as us, since we are all (mostly) developed countries) who have the death penalty abolished have less crime.

What I draw is that you don't have to have the death penalty in order to have low crime statistics.

[blaarg]

I understand where you're coming from, I just don't think you're looking at the end result of the data and what it really means.

with 4.55 murders per 100,000 means that you have a 0.0046% chance of being murdered
lets say we dropped it to 2.55, that means you now have a 0.0026% chance of being murdered.

yeah, with the first value it's nearly twice the chances !! but it's akin to saying you have twice the chances of winning the lottery by buying two tickets.

This isn't about me being personally murdered, its about the number of people murdered in a country. I agree, I feel just as safe in both Canada and the USA.

All I am saying is that if Canada had the same homicide rate as USA, a 1000 more people would be murdered a year. Or think of it in reverse, if the US had homicide rates of Canada, that is 9000 people that aren't murdered each year. This I find substantial.

This is an observation not a biased opinion.

[impala454]

This isn't about me being personally murdered, its about the number of people murdered in a country.

but that's the exact numbers you posted! all i did was perform the division to make it a percentage (more meaningful number). whether you say that 4.55 in 100,000 are murdered, or say you have a 0.00455% chance of being murdered, it's exactly the same statistic. it just looks worse when you say it one way rather than the other . that's where statistics can bite ya in the ass.

[impala454]

Yeah, I never said anything remotely near that as well:
What I draw is that you don't have to have the death penalty in order to have low crime statistics.

it's still completely irrelevant though, like i said you've got completely different cultures, population densities, laws, punishments, court systems (or lack therof).

[blaarg]

but that's the exact numbers you posted! all i did was perform the division to make it a percentage (more meaningful number). whether you say that 4.55 in 100,000 are murdered, or say you have a 0.00455% chance of being murdered, it's exactly the same statistic. it just looks worse when you say it one way rather than the other . that's where statistics can bite ya in the ass.

I don't see how you can authoritatively say that a percentage is "a more meaningful number." I think that is subjective at best.
Also, they are not exactly equivalent. Assuming that the act of murder was a random event, then I would have a .00455% chance of getting murdered. If I stole millions of dollars from a Mob Boss and was not smart enough to leave the city, then I would have a 99% chance of being murdered.

I concede that they are two different ways of looking at the statistics. Where one way you are concerned as an individual, you aren't going to see much of a difference, however, if you look at it spanning an entire population, there is, at least in my opinion (you might not think that way) that there is somewhat of a difference.

One final thing (at least on this front), if you took your approach on saying that there are (to paraphrase, not to quote) "such a slight chance of these things happening to me it doesn't lend itself to much concern" then what can you say about other things: terrorism, medicine to cure non-prominent diseases (just to name the first two that come to my head). When one follows that train of thought, its a slippery slope to unintentionally implying a lot of other things.

[blaarg]

it's still completely irrelevant though, like i said you've got completely different cultures, population densities, laws, punishments, court systems (or lack therof).

so to argue that the death penalty reduces crime is also a futile effort as well because of the same factors?

[THECHICKEN]

you guys have successfully misread every post i've put in this thread. you keep reading further than what I"m putting down. I never once said people want to go to jail. I don't have to link anything... the proof is in the pudding, you guys were the ones that posted that 60% of the prison pop is repeat offenders. the mofos obviously don't feel that jail is a bad enough punishment to stop commiting crimes once they get out!
if it's so easy to find why the hell didn't you just link it or quote it? geez am I gonna have to debate with myself now?

Thats just it, you aren't debating... and im tired of hitting my head against a wall.

One proffessor today said something that is absolutely golden: "don't argue... because hammering someone until they finally give up ARGUING with you just makes you annoying. The key is PERSUADING someone to your view."

Multiple people put how they think the numbers of repeat offenders is because of a societal cycle of condemning and never reintegrating into society. And instead of trying to persuade us why we were off the mark you do your normal "Where is your evidence of everything you happen to think on every subject, to prove that MY (impala's) belief about the system being TOO easy is wrong?"

You haven't proved shit about your single hypothesis of jail being too easy (and thats the reason for repeat offenders) and yet you try to say you are arguing by continually screaming for evidence on something that is theoretical.

Statistics show that even with a confirmed system of not reporting attacks by fellow inmates, there are lots of rapes, attacks, and fraud. BUT WHY AM I TRYING TO LOOK THAT UP? Why do i need to show that prison is actually a horrible place to settle impalas belief that prison is too easy, instead of just making an argument that the reason we have repeat offenders is because we don't REHABILITATE THEM?

Who cares about the statistics so much that we have to argue about what .23 of 1000 people means?

/rant complete
(lol im so tired... apologies for retarded fatigue speech)

[impala454]

I don't see how you can authoritatively say that a percentage is "a more meaningful number." I think that is subjective at best.
Also, they are not exactly equivalent.

yes, they are exactly equivalent.

4.55/100,000 = 0.00455 %

this data tells you exactly what it says: 0.00455% of our population in the US is murdered each year. it's a matter of looking at numbers in a meaningful way. I don't know how else to explain it. If you buy two lottery tickets, your chances of winning the jackpot do literally double. As does your chance of being murdered if you're a citizen of the US over one of the countries in your list that has 2.275/100k. but your chances are still virtually zero in both cases. so yes, technically the US has more murders per capita, but it's such a small amount it doesn't compare. it's the same as making a statement that a vehicle that gets 20.0001 mpg is better than one that gets 20.0000 mpg. technically yes it's better. is it meaningful? no.

[impala454]

so to argue that the death penalty reduces crime is also a futile effort as well because of the same factors?

as is likewise the effort to argue that removing the death penalty would have a positive effect.

I didn't start this debate. someone else mentioned that the death penalty itself is cruel & unusual, and then started dropping blanket generalizations of other countries.

[impala454]

Thats just it, you aren't debating... and im tired of hitting my head against a wall.

One proffessor today said something that is absolutely golden: "don't argue... because hammering someone until they finally give up ARGUING with you just makes you annoying. The key is PERSUADING someone to your view."

Multiple people put how they think the numbers of repeat offenders is because of a societal cycle of condemning and never reintegrating into society. And instead of trying to persuade us why we were off the mark you do your normal "Where is your evidence of everything you happen to think on every subject, to prove that MY (impala's) belief about the system being TOO easy is wrong?"

You haven't proved shit about your single hypothesis of jail being too easy (and thats the reason for repeat offenders) and yet you try to say you are arguing by continually screaming for evidence on something that is theoretical.

Statistics show that even with a confirmed system of not reporting attacks by fellow inmates, there are lots of rapes, attacks, and fraud. BUT WHY AM I TRYING TO LOOK THAT UP? Why do i need to show that prison is actually a horrible place to settle impalas belief that prison is too easy, instead of just making an argument that the reason we have repeat offenders is because we don't REHABILITATE THEM?

Who cares about the statistics so much that we have to argue about what .23 of 1000 people means?

/rant complete
(lol im so tired... apologies for retarded fatigue speech)

how do I provide statistics of something that doesn't happen? it's you guys claiming that all these terrible things happen. it's you guys who claimed that 60% of people in jail are repeat offenders. obviously jail wasn't bad enough to deterr them from commiting another crime! what other stat do you need than what's already been posted!??

[blaarg]

this data tells you exactly what it says: 0.00455% of our population in the US is murdered each year. it's a matter of looking at numbers in a meaningful way.

I am curious what rate you would find significant. I mean 20 murders per 100000? Thats only .02% It's still a pretty highly unlikely event, I mean that isn't anywhere NEAR 1%, right? I guess 60K people killed probably would not be enough?
How many thousands of people need to be murdered before it is considered a substantial increase?

I'm done with this. It's your prerogative if you want to view your chance of dying due to homicide as the "more meaningful way" to look at the data over taking into consideration the thousands of American lives who would benefit from a homicide rate similar to other developed countries.

[Testm0nkey]

do you not understand that its been shown that more progressive detentions/prisons have less of the same people coming back. not dissappearing off the planet but because they arent being arrested/going to court

so an actual implemented rehabilitation/job work orientated prison system deters crime and repeat offenders more than putting people under lock and key 24/7 with assault rifles. this is common sense for most people

[impala454]

I'm done with this. It's your prerogative if you want to view your chance of dying due to homicide as the "more meaningful way" to look at the data over taking into consideration the thousands of American lives who would benefit from a homicide rate similar to other developed countries.

but you're comparing our country to another. doing it by percentage of population that is murdered... how else are you supposed to look at it?? saying "but, but, it's 1000 people so that sounds like a lot" doesn't change the fact that the difference in the numbers is pretty much insignificant.

[THECHICKEN]

how do I provide statistics of something that doesn't happen? it's you guys claiming that all these terrible things happen. it's you guys who claimed that 60% of people in jail are repeat offenders. obviously jail wasn't bad enough to deterr them from commiting another crime! what other stat do you need than what's already been posted!??

Sorry, i can't take that post serious without statistics,

Please provide statistics it doesn't happen, thanks

(by the way, this is my default response to anything you say now... we'll see how well the "argument" goes)

[impala454]

do you not understand that its been shown that more progressive detentions/prisons have less of the same people coming back. not dissappearing off the planet but because they arent being arrested/going to court

so an actual implemented rehabilitation/job work orientated prison system deters crime and repeat offenders more than putting people under lock and key 24/7 with assault rifles. this is common sense for most people

how can you make this statement/comparison?? we do not currently put people under lock and key 24/7 with assault rifles. we give them their own space and cable TV.

[impala454]

Sorry, i can't take that post serious without statistics,

Please provide statistics it doesn't happen, thanks

you guys were the ones that provided that statistic (60% of jailbirds are repeat offenders). so if that statistic is wrong then fine.

(by the way, this is my default response to anything you say now... we'll see how well the "argument" goes)

in other words, you've got nothing else to say so you're just gonna stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalallaala" like a little child. how disappointing.

[THECHICKEN]

you guys were the ones that provided that statistic (60% of jailbirds are repeat offenders). so if that statistic is wrong then fine.
in other words, you've got nothing else to say so you're just gonna stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalallaala" like a little child. how disappointing.

HAHAHAHA

i was mimicking WHAT YOU DO AT ALL POINTS OF ANY ARGUMENT

god that made my day...

So basically you going against common sense (by saying there is no violence in prison and its too easy) and then bitching CONSTANTLY about no statistics to back up THEORY strikes you as fine. Yet even people DO PROVIDE YOU with statistics you put your fingers in your ears an go "lalalalalalalalallalalalalala"

So call it what you like, i will continue to give back what you like to dish... enjoy

[THECHICKEN]

how can you make this statement/comparison?? we do not currently put people under lock and key 24/7 with assault rifles. we give them their own space and cable TV.

Please evidence this with a link or statistics... i don't believe you

[blaarg]

Please evidence this with a link or statistics... i don't believe you

hah I like this. and when he does provide statistics shrug them off by saying they mean nothing and are insignificant.

[impala454]

HAHAHAHA

i was mimicking WHAT YOU DO AT ALL POINTS OF ANY ARGUMENT

god that made my day...

So basically you going against common sense (by saying there is no violence in prison and its too easy) and then bitching CONSTANTLY about no statistics to back up THEORY strikes you as fine. Yet even people DO PROVIDE YOU with statistics you put your fingers in your ears an go "lalalalalalalalallalalalalala"

So call it what you like, i will continue to give back what you like to dish... enjoy

uh... ok... so someone else posts a stat, I use it, and now you're telling me I have no stats to back up my argument? and yet again let me ask you, where/how do I find a statistic for something that doesn't happen? show me the statistics for how many pigs flew yesterday. oh you can't show me it was zero? i guess you can't prove to me that pigs don't fly then...

and glad to see this stupid board makes or breaks your day...

[impala454]

hah I like this. and when he does provide statistics shrug them off by saying they mean nothing and are insignificant.

it's not my fault you failed to understand the only statistics you posted.

[blaarg]

I am just absolutely dumbfounded how you can say that our homicide rate in the US (4.55/100000) is only slightly different than that of Canada (1.59/100000). It is 180% GREATER ! The fact that the rates are low and all in all are uncommon does not mean that there isn't a significant difference. Like I asked before, which you either intentionally didn't answer or you didn't read, what do YOU believe would be a significant difference? What would the homicide rate in the United States have to be for you to think "you know what there might be a difference between us and Canada"

Again using the same example...20/100000 is still a highly unlikely event (.02%) that you would get murdered. What would be a significant homicide rate?

[impala454]

I am just absolutely dumbfounded how you can say that our homicide rate in the US (4.55/100000) is only slightly different than that of Canada (1.59/100000). It is 180% GREATER !

i guess you just don't understand then. go buy three lottery tickets then bud, you'll have a 300% greater chance of winning the lottery. it's a HUGE difference right?

[blaarg]

it's not my fault you failed to understand the only statistics you posted.

No I am fully aware of the statistics I've provided. I know that two to three times the homicide rate as most industrialized countries is a big deal and is significant.

So what is a significant homicide rate? You keep bypassing this, and I have an idea of why this is....

[Testm0nkey]

my under lock and key 24/7 with assault rifles was in response to an earlier post of what impala said prisons should be like

[impala454]

No I am fully aware of the statistics I've provided. I know that two to three times the homicide rate as most industrialized countries is a big deal and is significant.

So what is a significant homicide rate? You keep bypassing this, and I have an idea of why this is....

well look at the percentages and decide... to me a change from 0.0045% to 0.0023% isn't much. if it went up an order of magnitude, say to 0.045% then yeah that's much more significant. but they don't there's not some country in that list where you go in and have a 10x greater chance of being murdered.

[impala454]

my under lock and key 24/7 with assault rifles was in response to an earlier post of what impala said prisons should be like

exactly.

so how does your post from earlier (the one I was referring to) make any sense?

so an actual implemented rehabilitation/job work orientated prison system deters crime and repeat offenders more than putting people under lock and key 24/7 with assault rifles. this is common sense for most people

how is it "common sense" for most people that one is better than the other, when one of them doesn't even happen??

[THECHICKEN]

hah I like this. and when he does provide statistics shrug them off by saying they mean nothing and are insignificant.

Lol im confused why you keep conversing with him. It accomplishing nothing because of his fingers permanently lodged in his brain via the earlobe.

He doesn't think that LARGE differences in crime rates are important... because he has a preconcieved notion and WILL NOT ever think for himself on whether or not he should question his view.

He makes preposterous claims (like jail is easy happy fun time full of good television and nice comfy beds and NO VIOLENCE, and the reason people are going back to jail is because they aren't on 100% lock down) when every piece of common sense and "evidence" would show him wrong (like super max prisons produce the worst criminals because of the HUGE increase in mental problems, etc.), yet he tries to force everyone to disprove his ridiculous claim (which he then ignores if you produce evidence).


Besides, we are off topic anyway, so its like a rolling trainwreck