hey lance, re: your sig Options

[jonathan83]

what's the one major city we lost? the only thing i can think of would be New Orleans, and i dont see how that was Bush's fault. Maybe the evacuation and support after the hurricane yes...but the actual hurricane? No. Help me out here.

[GOB]

yes, new orleans

yes it was bush's fault; he blew up the dams because he hates black people

[Seeker]

what's the one major city we lost? the only thing i can think of would be New Orleans, and i dont see how that was Bush's fault. Maybe the evacuation and support after the hurricane yes...but the actual hurricane? No. Help me out here.

You're right, it's New Orleans. In the years prior to the hurricane FEMA and other government agencies studied the levee system around New Orleans and determined that the system was weak and was in dire need of an upgrade. Instead of setting aside the money to upgrade the levee system with Federal dollars Bush redirected the money towards his war and fighting terrorism. There was a specific bill that funded the reconstruction of the levee system but Bush vetoed it or something like that.

Then once a hurricane actually happened Bush and his administration totally bungled the rescue effort and cleanup. FEMA was days late, sent food to wrong locations, stopped food and supplies from being shipped etc.

Years after the hurricane New Orleans still isn't rebuilt because Bush and the neo-cons would rather rebuild a foreign country instead of our own country.

[impala454]

so "bush vetoed it or something like that". perhaps he vetoed it because it shouldn't have been federal tax dollars going to something which should have been a state/local matter.

yeah bush totally screwed up the rescue effort. he personally didn't get down there quick enough. he personally sent orders that fema be late on purpose. he personally made the citizens of new orleans fire guns at the very helicopters and people attempting to rescue them. bush also personally defiled and destroyed countless fema trailers provided to the new orleans refugees, costing more federal tax dollars.

but you're right, we should pull our forces out of war whenever natural disasters happen, i mean, we can't be fighting wars whenever hurricanes happen. especially when it would cost 100x what a city was worth to rebuild. we should tax the crap out of the entire country so we can rebuild a city which is 50 ft below sea level so it can get leveled again by the next hurricane.

[moebary]

the aftermath mess was almost all due to horrible state/local government, they're the reason fema couldn't get anything done

[Seeker]

You're both wrong. The state/local government could not afford to fix the levee system. Through FEMA there is Federal program where if the state qualifies they can receive Federal dollars to fix infrastructure. Louisiana was denied the Federal dollars it should have rightfully received.

To Impala, I'm not saying Bush was personally responsible; however, he appointed the FEMA director and countless other people involved with the Katrina mess. Bush may not have personally tried to sabotage the relief effort but his administration did a pretty good job of fucking things up. Ultimately the blame comes to rest on the person on top, and that is Bush. Secondly, we shouldn't have been in Iraq in the first place. We were lied to about the reasons being there and Saddam had no connection to 911 as you still believe. If we were not in Iraq we would have the resources to rebuild New Orleans. It's all Bush's fault.

[James]

Just agree to disagree...

[GOB]

the only logical solution is to go back to the future and kill barbara bush before she gives birth to george w.

[moebary]

You're both wrong. The state/local government could not afford to fix the levee system. Through FEMA there is Federal program where if the state qualifies they can receive Federal dollars to fix infrastructure. Louisiana was denied the Federal dollars it should have rightfully received.

To Impala, I'm not saying Bush was personally responsible; however, he appointed the FEMA director and countless other people involved with the Katrina mess. Bush may not have personally tried to sabotage the relief effort but his administration did a pretty good job of fucking things up. Ultimately the blame comes to rest on the person on top, and that is Bush. Secondly, we shouldn't have been in Iraq in the first place. We were lied to about the reasons being there and Saddam had no connection to 911 as you still believe. If we were not in Iraq we would have the resources to rebuild New Orleans. It's all Bush's fault.

I wasn't referring to the levees, just the immediate cleanup mess

the levees are a long term project, and if you're still talking about them getting the money before Katrina, then FEMA wouldn't have been involved at all

[pysex]

Dear Lance,

It was well understood that the local New Orleans government and Louisiana state government failed their own people. They were charging tax dollars to help rebuild the levees but magically that money went elsewhere. Where? We'll never know. It wasn't until the city was under water that the local government realized they didn't have a proper crisis contingency plan. Houston has been underwater many many many many times and you don't see people freaking the fuck out.

New Orleans was supposed to have money in the bank to relieve a situation like this one. Most cities on the coast have emergency plans....especially in Florida. FEMA and Bush were called to action after the state failed in all aspects of crisis management. And then they get blamed for not responding quick enough when the state is supposed to handle the initial emergency.

[moebary]

bingo

[Seeker]

It's well understood that New Orleans was denied Federal dollars that would have been spent fixing the levee system. Regardless if the Federal government or the State government was supposed to fix the levee system the Federal government still failed on the relief effort and rebuilding.

Putting a "Dear" in your post and trying to make it letter format doesn't make it magically right, it only makes you look stupid. Try persuading people with facts next time instead of trying to make your post look cool.

[Hartmann]

The state government was given plenty of money to fix the levees but they squandered it...

[James]

Just agree to disagree...

*bump*

[Hartmann]

Houston has been underwater many many many many times and you don't see people freaking the fuck out.

Last week, the week before, and probably next week...

[pysex]

It's well understood that New Orleans was denied Federal dollars that would have been spent fixing the levee system. Regardless if the Federal government or the State government was supposed to fix the levee system the Federal government still failed on the relief effort and rebuilding.

Putting a "Dear" in your post and trying to make it letter format doesn't make it magically right, it only makes you look stupid. Try persuading people with facts next time instead of trying to make your post look cool.

Would've, could've, should've....

It's quite obvious that whatever money was there to rebuild the levee system wasn't spent on the levees. If it was state funding, tax money, whatever. They didn't fix it...and they paid the price. There will always be finger pointing in a mess like this and I think people are wrong to point their fingers at Bush.

I don't like him any more than you do but in this situation it wasn't his fault.

[Seeker]

Forget about New Orleans for a minute.

Do you think Bush should be impeached for his crimes against this country (minus New Orleans)?

[James]

He hasn't committed a crime.

[GOB]

why is french stewart (possibly billy bob thornton) in that poster?

[impala454]

it doesn't matter. lance will blame bush for any and all problems in existence. it'll be interesting to see what happens when we have a new pres in office.

it's funny how the idiots that blame bush for everything always have the response to questions about the war:
q: "what would you do with the situation in Iraq?"
a: "we never should have gone there"

[pysex]

I don't like him because he has no tact. I can't really say if he's committing crimes or not. The Patriot Act passed in Congress which means a lot of people in Congress supported it. I don't like being spied on but I really don't have anything to worry about. The worst they're going to hear on the phone is my mom bitching about the neighbor's dog.

About the "war"? I don't like what it has become. I liked the idea initially because Saddam would be removed from power. What pisses me off now is that it seems like we expected a culture that's riddled with violence and sectarianism to magically create a democratic government. Their way of life is completely different from ours and there's no way they're going to adapt. They are so used to being dominated by violence that I don't think they can ever live in peace again. I will agree that Bush has handled that situation pretty poorly and I'd like to see us out of there in the near future.

9/11 had nothing to do with Bush and I refuse to believe any of the conspiracy crap surrounding it. I don't think creating a new government bureaucracy was the right response. If we had already been cautious about foreigners entering our country we probably wouldn't be in the situation we are now. Immigration is nice and all. Yeah we're a country of freedom and equality. BLAH BLAH BLAH. I think our population is rich enough that we don't need anymore "citizens". We've become the world's fucking playground and I'm really tired of it. I want a president who's serious about America and its people. A pipe dream I'm sure.

He's just been an all around fuck up. He's mainly worried about securing American interests overseas instead of the issues at home. The next president better deal with oil prices or we're going to be in real trouble.

[impala454]

He's mainly worried about securing American interests overseas instead of the issues at home.

The next president better deal with oil prices or we're going to be in real trouble.

[James]

The President has no business interfering with oil prices.

[Seeker]

The president needs to start a Manhattan project for alternative energy that is renewable and something that we can make on our own.

[James]

The president needs to start a Manhattan project for alternative energy that is renewable and something that we can make on our own.

We already have that - nuclear power. No one wants to take the risks associated with it though.

And if that doesn't work for you, there's always http://www1.eere.energy.gov/financing/

[impala454]

it's funny that the treehuggers were so opposed to nuclear power back in the day, now it's basically the best, cleanest way to go.

[Testm0nkey]

seriously... impala you are killing me

bush is supporting nuclear power. many plants are being reopened, money directed in that direction, and plans to make more nuclear plants in the near future. that is 1 good thing hes done. us "treehuggers" know a lot more about nuclear power now. we also are in a horrible situation with foreign oil, it makes perfect sense to switch to nuclear

New Orleans made millions of shittons of money off tourism. so this the "city isnt worth rebuilding" crap is laughable and completely arrogant and inhumane

[impala454]

seriously... impala you are killing me

how am i killing you? i don't get it. all i said was it was funny how the treehuggers were so anti nuclear power back in the day and now it's the one of the cleanest sources of power we have. i didn't say anything else... just thought it was ironic. oh well i guess it's expected for them to be 20 years behind . it'll be funny when I'm an old man and my kids are complaining about the new ice age and how we need more CO2 in the air. I'll just say "yeap, back in my day them treehuggers kept goin on and on about global warming".

New Orleans made millions of shittons of money off tourism. so this the "city isnt worth rebuilding" crap is laughable and completely arrogant and inhumane

millions of shittons? for who? new orleans was one of the poorest ones around. how is it arrogant and inhumane to say a city isn't worth rebuilding? it doesn't make economical sense to invest federal tax dollars in rebuilding new orleans. how it is inhumane to not want to build a city so people can go back and live in it and get washed away again? of course the city will eventually get back on its feet. NBC news had a special on the other night saying it's going well and people are moving there, and there's been an 18% increase in the population etc etc. but it won't change the fact that the damn place is 50 ft below sea level and just waiting to go back in the drink the next time a big hurricane comes by.

[pysex]

The President has no business interfering with oil prices.

if oil companies won't do it...then who will?

[impala454]

if oil companies won't do it...then who will?

so what can the president do to lower your gas bill? press the magic "lower the gas price" button?

you whined about the president getting into international problems in the largest oil producing area on the planet, and then complained about oil problems, which do you want? you can't have both.

democrats = professional complainers

[James]

If the people keep buying it and using it all willy nilly, then there's obviously no problem. In the end, consumers control the prices.

[Oasis]

so what can the president do to lower your gas bill? press the magic "lower the gas price" button?

you whined about the president getting into international problems in the largest oil producing area on the planet, and then complained about oil problems, which do you want? you can't have both.

democrats = professional complainers

Repeal or lower the federal gasoline tax. I forgot what it is per gallon, somewhere around 39 cents. For a nation collectively struggling to get by due in part to the (relatively) sudden dollar/gallon gasoline price hike, it would help a lot. Of course the government actually helping out its citizens is a pipe dream. Something tells me they could easily repeal the gas tax and still operate effectively if they learned how to manage their budget. Unfortunately, they often squander their money on useless studies and other worthless endeavours.

I see it like this: I make around $2k a month. After taking out for tax withholdings, rent, bills, etc, I sure as hell don't have enough left over to go out every night and drink Dom Perignon. I have to budget my money. It's unfortunate that in a time of crisis (with increasing taxes, gas prices, and the current state of the economy, I'll call this a crisis for argument's sake), our government is pissing away our tax dollars on things like "Do men or women talk more?" studies and $10 million a year for the Worldwide Toilet Conference.

Repeal the gasoline tax, cut the price/gallon by 40 cents, and make up for the deficit by cutting down on unneeded programs and studies.

[impala454]

Repeal or lower the federal gasoline tax. I forgot what it is per gallon, somewhere around 39 cents. For a nation collectively struggling to get by due in part to the (relatively) sudden dollar/gallon gasoline price hike, it would help a lot. Of course the government actually helping out its citizens is a pipe dream. Something tells me they could easily repeal the gas tax and still operate effectively if they learned how to manage their budget. Unfortunately, they often squander their money on useless studies and other worthless endeavours.

I see it like this: I make around $2k a month. After taking out for tax withholdings, rent, bills, etc, I sure as hell don't have enough left over to go out every night and drink Dom Perignon. I have to budget my money. It's unfortunate that in a time of crisis (with increasing taxes, gas prices, and the current state of the economy, I'll call this a crisis for argument's sake), our government is pissing away our tax dollars on things like "Do men or women talk more?" studies and $10 million a year for the Worldwide Toilet Conference.

Repeal the gasoline tax, cut the price/gallon by 40 cents, and make up for the deficit by cutting down on unneeded programs and studies.

there is a federal and state gasoline tax, but how would that solve anything? you have to fix the problem at its source, the actual price. a one time change of $0.30 is not going to make all the whiners happy, or lower the price in the long run. besides, congress is the body that has to vote to repeal anything, not the president. the pres could lobby for them to bring it up, but so can anyone else.

and as far as pissing away tax dollars... well yeah that should happen anyway... not just as a tactic to cut the price we pay at the pump.

[James]

Repeal or lower the federal gasoline tax. I forgot what it is per gallon, somewhere around 39 cents. For a nation collectively struggling to get by due in part to the (relatively) sudden dollar/gallon gasoline price hike, it would help a lot. Of course the government actually helping out its citizens is a pipe dream. Something tells me they could easily repeal the gas tax and still operate effectively if they learned how to manage their budget. Unfortunately, they often squander their money on useless studies and other worthless endeavours.

I see it like this: I make around $2k a month. After taking out for tax withholdings, rent, bills, etc, I sure as hell don't have enough left over to go out every night and drink Dom Perignon. I have to budget my money. It's unfortunate that in a time of crisis (with increasing taxes, gas prices, and the current state of the economy, I'll call this a crisis for argument's sake), our government is pissing away our tax dollars on things like "Do men or women talk more?" studies and $10 million a year for the Worldwide Toilet Conference.

Repeal the gasoline tax, cut the price/gallon by 40 cents, and make up for the deficit by cutting down on unneeded programs and studies.

Who gets to decide what is and isn't a worthwhile study/endeavor? I bet the conductors of those studies found them worthwhile.

[impala454]

Who gets to decide what is and isn't a worthwhile study/endeavor? I bet the conductors of those studies found them worthwhile.

well and it's not like it's

federal money -> stupid study

it's more like

federal money -> state -> UT -> UT bureacracy -> blah -> blah -> blah -> psycology dept -> professor

[pysex]

so what can the president do to lower your gas bill? press the magic "lower the gas price" button?

you whined about the president getting into international problems in the largest oil producing area on the planet, and then complained about oil problems, which do you want? you can't have both.

democrats = professional complainers

impala = douchebag


who said i was a democrat?

first you said i was gay..twice...which i'm not

then you called me a democrat....which i'm not



can i not be a consumer who's royally pissed that i'm blowing money away on gas when the price honestly doesn't need to be 3.00 a gallon?

can i not disagree with the reason we invaded iraq?

why does that make me a democrat?....does it make me a republican to say i wish we'd obliterate iran off the map? they're a main source for the world's terrorism...

does it make me a republican if i say close our goddamn borders or am i just a concerned citizen worried about illegal immigration?


Quit trying to label people


oh and quick edit.....did you think maybe that our involvement in that area created a spike in oil prices? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

[James]

If $3.00 is too much, don't buy any? It's simple.

[impala454]

impala = douchebag

heh

first you said i was gay..twice...which i'm not

then you called me a democrat....which i'm not

heh well maybe you come across as a gay democrat on here kinda like how I come across as a douchebag

can i not be a consumer who's royally pissed that i'm blowing money away on gas when the price honestly doesn't need to be 3.00 a gallon?

sure you can be pissed about the gas prices, we were just discussing whether or not it's the president's fault. i thought it was ironic that you'd blame the president for both being too involved in foreign policy and be upset that he hasn't done anything about gas prices. the two subjects are inseparable. besides, what is your basis for the statement "the price honestly doesn't need to be 3.00 a gallon"?

can i not disagree with the reason we invaded iraq?

sure you can disagree... but i didn't even think we were discussing the reasons for invading iraq here... although it's silly of me not to assume that every thread on this board can result in that discussion

why does that make me a democrat?....

technically i didn't call you a democrat, but since you insinuated that, i'll bite. the typical democrat/liberal/etc views tend to complain about everything (hence why I said professional complainers) and not really offer up any solutions. your post seemed to kinda fit the bill. what political and sexual affiliation would you like me to associate you with? to avoid any further assumptions.

does it make me a republican to say i wish we'd obliterate iran off the map? they're a main source for the world's terrorism...

i dunno that i've ever heard any republicans say this (except in a joking manner maybe heheh)

does it make me a republican if i say close our goddamn borders or am i just a concerned citizen worried about illegal immigration?
Quit trying to label people

no if you say close the borders you're a libertarian . republican = secure the borders . democrat = "let em in they'll vote for me"

oh and quick edit.....did you think maybe that our involvement in that area created a spike in oil prices? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?

the war has been going on since 2003, but the "spike" has only been over the past year or so. also there have been huge spikes in the past, yet no war going on.

[Psykopath]

If $3.00 is too much, don't buy any? It's simple.

LMFAO

Sorry, not that simple in the real world, chief.

[pysex]

If $3.00 is too much, don't buy any? It's simple.

Ok. Then you drive me where I need to go.

[TetraGrammaton C...]

If $3.00 is too much, don't buy any? It's simple.

james, stop pretending that you are impala.

[James]

LMFAO

Sorry, not that simple in the real world, chief.

God gave man two feet to get around with. For the lazy man, we invented the bicycle. There's two alternatives to motorized travel.

[TetraGrammaton C...]

God gave man two feet to get around with. For the lazy man, we invented the bicycle. There's two alternatives to motorized travel.

and what was invented for the man who sees only simple-minded inapplicable solutions?

[James]

The Internet so yall can bitch on it.

[Oasis]

God gave man two feet to get around with. For the lazy man, we invented the bicycle. There's two alternatives to motorized travel.

If you lived in a town the size of a subdivision, this would be an option.

Some people in Austin do that though. Ride several miles to work. While they're doing their part to help the environment, they end up getting to work covered in sweat and smelling like a morgue. Very professional

[TetraGrammaton C...]

The Internet so yall can bitch on it.

cover your heart, indy, cover your heart

i wish i did bitch on the internet more, then i would never have to use gasoline.
and i could grow my own food, so that i would not have to pay higher food costs from increasing gasoline prices.
wait, this is starting to sound too amish, and i do not like butter enough or churning.

time to go complain in the real world!

[James]

Ok. I don't know what I was thinking. Go back to bitching about gas prices.

[pysex]

impala i can't honestly tell if you're trying to be an asshole or if it comes naturally


there are ways that a president can pressure congress into taking action against raising oil prices...
i have no knowledge as to what the practices and procedures are for doing so....i can't give details...
but know for damn sure the president, if he's interested at all, can do something about it

i'm not blaming him or pointing fingers saying that Bush is the cause of it...i'm simply upset that he hasn't done anything or shown signs that he's concerned about it

i think the real culprit is the major conflict in the areas where we get most of our oil....the nations that are involved in OPEC

sure OPEC doesn't have much of a stranglehold on the oil market anymore but they still hold 2/3 of the world's oil and something like 50% of the world's oil production

Iraq, Indonesia, Iran, Kuwait, Libya, Angola, Algeria, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Venezuela all make up OPEC....Now find countries out of that list that might have issues with our involvement in the Middle East (whether it's military, economical, political, whatever) and then explain how gas prices could possibly be affected by that.


call me libertarian then if you really have to label me

[Spectatrix]

no if you say close the borders you're a libertarian .

Actually, the traditional Libertarian stance on immigration is a policy of open borders, though it is an issue of significant controversy within the Libertarian community.

[impala454]

LMFAO

Sorry, not that simple in the real world, chief.

sure it is. while gas is something we have to have, if we'll pay anything for it, they'll charge anything for it. gas goes to $3.00/gallon, and yet people are spending more money than ever, travelling more than ever. like will said, there's so much frivolous spending, the market just doesn't show us that $3.00/gallon gas is too much.

[impala454]

impala i can't honestly tell if you're trying to be an asshole or if it comes naturally

it comes naturally for me on these kinds of message boards I am somewhat of a devil's advocate in real life but much easier to get along with

there are ways that a president can pressure congress into taking action against raising oil prices...
i have no knowledge as to what the practices and procedures are for doing so....i can't give details...
but know for damn sure the president, if he's interested at all, can do something about it

so you don't know how, you just know for sure?

i'm not blaming him or pointing fingers saying that Bush is the cause of it...i'm simply upset that he hasn't done anything or shown signs that he's concerned about it

right, but what I was getting at was not necessarily Bush but the president's job in general. any president. you said you wanted a president that will help with gas prices, but then you also said you want a president who doesn't concentrate on foreign affairs. I'm saying is what you want is impossible. foreign affairs are key when you're talking about oil. just as you said here:

i think the real culprit is the major conflict in the areas where we get most of our oil....the nations that are involved in OPEC

sure OPEC doesn't have much of a stranglehold on the oil market anymore but they still hold 2/3 of the world's oil and something like 50% of the world's oil production

Iraq, Indonesia, Iran, Kuwait, Libya, Angola, Algeria, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Venezuela all make up OPEC....Now find countries out of that list that might have issues with our involvement in the Middle East (whether it's military, economical, political, whatever) and then explain how gas prices could possibly be affected by that.

all I'm sayin is give the man/woman/whoever/whatever is president a break. they can't make everything kumbaya, especially when half of those countries you listed are at war or have a mortal hatred of one another or us. it's not a simple thing to just walk over there and make everyone get along, while also pleasing everyone back home. "excuse me, can you put down that AK-47 a sec, I need to buy some of your oil. oh and by the way can you give me a better price than last time? people over here gotta take road trips during the summer yanno".

call me libertarian then if you really have to label me

heh ok

Actually, the traditional Libertarian stance on immigration is a policy of open borders, though it is an issue of significant controversy within the Libertarian community.

ah... i was just winging that but it seemed logical. bleh

[Spectatrix]

all I'm sayin is give the man/woman/whoever/whatever is president a break.

I won't give Bush much of a break because he's done too many shady/illegal things (yes, I am asserting that the NSA warrantless wiretapping program is illegal), but I do NOT blame him for gas prices. My solution to high gas prices was simple: I got a car with good fuel efficiency (typical for my '02 Echo is ~35 mpg. I pay less than $100/month for gas... big whoop.

[impala454]

I won't give Bush much of a break because he's done too many shady/illegal things (yes, I am asserting that the NSA warrantless wiretapping program is illegal), but I do NOT blame him for gas prices. My solution to high gas prices was simple: I got a car with good fuel efficiency (typical for my '02 Echo is ~35 mpg. I pay less than $100/month for gas... big whoop.

right, or, just don't bitch about it I say. I pay my $80/wk and go about my business.