Hummer greener than Prius Options

[impala454]

I'm surprised no one discussed this yet... I haven't found any decent links but they discussed it on the world news the other night on some "Dust to Dust" report done. Basically, from manufacture to garbage heap, the hummer will use way less energy than a prius, as well as the prius production itself having adverse affects on the environment. Apparently the big pollutant for the prius, is something like the nickel mining for its lots of batteries being one of the dirtiest, most polluting resources on the planet today.

here's a quick story (yes i know its a hummer site) but it will explain what the story is about.
http://www.hummerguy.net/hummer-news/study...ndly-than-prius

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

[Aaron]

Nice find!

[Psykopath]

I'm surprised no one discussed this yet... I haven't found any decent links but they discussed it on the world news the other night on some "Dust to Dust" report done. Basically, from manufacture to garbage heap, the hummer will use way less energy than a prius, as well as the prius production itself having adverse affects on the environment. Apparently the big pollutant for the prius, is something like the nickel mining for its lots of batteries being one of the dirtiest, most polluting resources on the planet today.

here's a quick story (yes i know its a hummer site) but it will explain what the story is about.
http://www.hummerguy.net/hummer-news/study...ndly-than-prius

Solution: Everyone buy a Hummer!

Since when did you care about the environment, Impala?

[James]

I think he wanted to point out that everyone else is misguided in their crusade for the environment, but I could be wrong.

[Psykopath]

I think he wanted to point out that everyone else is misguided in their crusade for the environment, but I could be wrong.

Everyone else is misguided?
I sure hope he wasn't assuming something so.....yeah....

I see what he was pointing out overall though.

[FORSAKENR320]

wanna save the enviroment? kill people.


kill lots of them. things will get better

[James]

Yeah. That's a very true statement. One child per family would be a less radical means of dealing with that situation though

[FORSAKENR320]

Yeah. That's a very true statement. One child per family would be a less radical means of dealing with that situation though

some families deserve to be culled more than others. i think it should be everyone for themselves slaughterfest.

[James]

That'd just be silly. We'd revert to an age of no new ideas because the majority of the intellectuals would be killed off or forced to stop thinking and focus their attention on self-preservation.

Then again, I guess history does repeat itself, so why fight it. Begin the slaughterfest.

[dauss]

I read it back in March and was skeptical about the article, that being an editorial from a small college paper. The original link to the article has expired, but a copy remains in Google's Cache.

To make a comparison, gotta post the whole thing and not some little snippet from the whole article.

The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

Before we delve into the seedy underworld of hybrids, you must first understand how a hybrid works. For this, we will use the most popular hybrid on the market, the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is powered by not one, but two engines: a standard 76 horsepower, 1.5-liter gas engine found in most cars today and a battery- powered engine that deals out 67 horsepower and a whooping 295ft/lbs of torque, below 2000 revolutions per minute. Essentially, the Toyota Synergy Drive system, as it is so called, propels the car from a dead stop to up to 30mph. This is where the largest percent of gas is consumed. As any physics major can tell you, it takes more energy to get an object moving than to keep it moving. The battery is recharged through the braking system, as well as when the gasoline engine takes over anywhere north of 30mph. It seems like a great energy efficient and environmentally sound car, right?

You would be right if you went by the old government EPA estimates, which netted the Prius an incredible 60 miles per gallon in the city and 51 miles per gallon on the highway. Unfortunately for Toyota, the government realized how unrealistic their EPA tests were, which consisted of highway speeds limited to 55mph and acceleration of only 3.3 mph per second. The new tests which affect all 2008 models give a much more realistic rating with highway speeds of 80mph and acceleration of 8mph per second. This has dropped the Prius’s EPA down by 25 percent to an average of 45mpg. This now puts the Toyota within spitting distance of cars like the Chevy Aveo, which costs less then half what the Prius costs.

However, if that was the only issue with the Prius, I wouldn’t be writing this article. It gets much worse.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

“The acid rain around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down off the hillside,” said Canadian Greenpeace energy-coordinator David Martin during an interview with Mail, a British-based newspaper.

All of this would be bad enough in and of itself; however, the journey to make a hybrid doesn’t end there. The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce ‘nickel foam.’ From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery. Are these not sounding less and less like environmentally sound cars and more like a farce?

Wait, I haven’t even got to the best part yet.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

One last fun fact for you: it takes five years to offset the premium price of a Prius. Meaning, you have to wait 60 months to save any money over a non-hybrid car because of lower gas expenses.

LOL, a GM with 300,000 miles.

Anyways, counterpoints are provided by someone else on how this article is crap, and this part is copied from here:

1. Take the "spitting distance" mileage, for example. The new EPA combined mileage put the Chevy Aveo at 26 mpg, the Toyota Prius at 46 mpg. So I guess 20 miles more per gallon is "spitting distance."
2. The "Dust-to-dust" study is from a marketing firm, not a science journal. It arrives at an artificially high cost for the Prius by assigning it an arbitrary lifespan of 100k miles, and a Hummer 300k miles. There's Prius being used as cabs that have 200k on them now: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8839690/
And, insofar as a car lasting, what car do you expect to repair less? A Toyota Prius or a GM Hummer? You can check Consumer Reports for the answer to that one. A good analysis of the flaws in dust-to-dust is available at:
http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=48
3. The Sudbury info is seriously outdated, and the comment about moon buggies (like, when did Nasa test moon buggies — early 1970’s) ought to have given the author a clue. Sudbury was polluted by a century of mining (1870 on). In fact, some of Sudbury’s nickel went into making the Statue of Liberty. Currently, the mine is owned by INCO (not Toyota), and produces 100,000 tons of nickel a year, of which Toyota buys 1% (1000 tons). Nickel, by the way, is primarily used to make stainless steel. The Mail on Sunday newspaper, which ran the story the college article is a thin re-write of (visible here http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/a...in_page_id=1770 ), used a stock photo from 1994 to illustrate the pollution (visible here http://www.photoboy.com/bin/Cklb?vmo=1173985067754 ). There were, of course, no Prius in existence or being manufactured in 1994.

Sudbury is no longer as polluted, as INCO and the city have planted over 8 million trees there since 1979. The best history online of the Sudbury devastation/reforestation comes from GM Canada (the trees were all cut down in 1871 to help rebuild Chicago after the fire), and it provides telling photos of some of the reclamation from 1979 to present.
http://www.gmcanada.com/inm/gmcanada/english/about/MissionG

And there's this:

Unfortunately, CNW Marketing analysis that Chris Demorro based his article on is fatally flawed.

First, it incorrectly assumes that hybrid batteries are not recycled. In reality, Toyota has very successful recycling program, including a $200 bounty on Prius batteries.

Second, it is interesting that he mentions the Scion xB. Yet he fails to note that the CNW report data on the xA and xB don't make any sense. They are built on the same assembly line, have the same powertrains, only differ in weight by 50 lbs or so, and have similar efficiency (~35mpg), yet the CNW study shows the lifetime energy use of these vehicles to differ by 50 percent. How's that work?

Third, the CNW report makes really bad assumptions about where the bulk of lifecycle energy use occurs (eg manufacturing vs operation).

In short, it's misinformed at best and is more likely an intentional greenwash to assuage SUV owner dissonance in a post 9/11 world.

So, using outdated sources and arbitrary numbers really makes that article total crap.

Also quoted from someone else:

FWIW, Chris Demorro owns/drives a 1969 Mercury Cougar and a 1995 F-body. I wonder what kind of milage and environmental impact those have.
http://ccsucarclub.com/index.php?page=chrisd

[Psykopath]

HAHA, glad the article actually had some context now. Now it makes way better sense.


A Hummer...enviromentally friendly in ANY way imaginable...LMFAO.

[FORSAKENR320]

That'd just be silly. We'd revert to an age of no new ideas because the majority of the intellectuals would be killed off or forced to stop thinking and focus their attention on self-preservation.

Then again, I guess history does repeat itself, so why fight it. Begin the slaughterfest.

dammit, i wish that i could find the place that i read this... "in the event of a total world war..... the things witht eh greatest chance of survival are cockroaches...and rednecks"



rednecks are extremely adaptable.... they can live on anything...heh

[impala454]

wanna save the enviroment? kill people.
kill lots of them. things will get better

quoted for truth

one average human being puts out more CO2 than the average car in a given year. (I posted this before with a link just dont feel like looking it up again)

[impala454]

Since when did you care about the environment, Impala?

oh i could give two shits about the environment. it's just funny to me when the greenies think they're doing all this to help when they really arent. like i've always said, i'll give the treehuggers respect when they move out into the woods naked and survive without killing any living thing or disturbing the environment

[impala454]

HAHA, glad the article actually had some context now. Now it makes way better sense.
A Hummer...enviromentally friendly in ANY way imaginable...LMFAO.

no one ever said the hummer was "environmentally friendly". the basic idea is they're pointing out that even the magical prius has adverse affects on the environment.

[impala454]

LOL, a GM with 300,000 miles.

we have a chevrolet truck with 270k on it right now, still running fine for us. and I would be pretty shocked if a brand new technology electric gas hybrid vehicle lasts more than 100k.

[Psykopath]

oh i could give two shits about the environment. it's just funny to me when the greenies think they're doing all this to help when they really arent. like i've always said, i'll give the treehuggers respect when they move out into the woods naked and survive without killing any living thing or disturbing the environment

lmfao
You're absolutely clueless. Quit thinking that in order to "save the environment" we have to live like goddamn neaderthals.

So you give two-shits about the environment? Fine. Go live in that arid area you're carefully selected quote spoke of. You won't mind.

[Psykopath]

no one ever said the hummer was "environmentally friendly". the basic idea is they're pointing out that even the magical prius has adverse affects on the environment.

No shit it does. I'd venture to say any manufactured product will do so. I din't think common knowledge needed to be pointed out but thanks for the hint, Captain Obvious!

[impala454]

lmfao
You're absolutely clueless. Quit thinking that in order to "save the environment" we have to live like goddamn neaderthals.

yeah i'm clueless... these dipshit uppity prius buyers think they're better than everyone else because they bought a hybrid. a hybrid whose manufacture includes one of the dirtiest polluting mining operations on the planet. you would have to live like a neanderthal to not affect the environment. the greenies like to pick and choose where they want to be green and it's friggin sad. "oh well I buy organic food", yeah harvested by a dirty diesel powered combine, dumped into a factory full of machines, then delivered by a big dirty diesel powered semi truck. "oh I have solar panels on my roof", yeah on the roof of your house made of wood, with asphalt shingles and in a neighborhood where some squirrel family used to live.

So you give two-shits about the environment? Fine. Go live in that arid area you're carefully selected quote spoke of. You won't mind.

i don't care about the environment. i like the way i live and am not a hypocrite by living in todays modern society and trying to claim i'm not impact the environment.

[Oasis]

Impala getting owned in an NPR argument....looks like little has changed in my absence

[impala454]

Impala getting owned in an NPR argument....looks like little has changed in my absence

lemme guess, you drive a moped and feel like you're helping the environment too

[Oasis]

lemme guess, you drive a moped and feel like you're helping the environment too

No, I'm Will and I saw you get owned in NPR arguments for the last 3 years

[dauss]

we have a chevrolet truck with 270k on it right now, still running fine for us. and I would be pretty shocked if a brand new technology electric gas hybrid vehicle lasts more than 100k.

Seriously, do you just pick out what you want to argue about and then just skip over the rest?

Prepare to be "pretty shocked" again.

2. The "Dust-to-dust" study is from a marketing firm, not a science journal. It arrives at an artificially high cost for the Prius by assigning it an arbitrary lifespan of 100k miles, and a Hummer 300k miles. There's Prius being used as cabs that have 200k on them now: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8839690/

[zetec]

I heard somewhere that they're switching to Lithium batteries soon. Not for the enviroment, but because they can get more juice out of em.

[rabble]

does anyone have a Google maps location to that nickel factory?

[Testm0nkey]

impala you havent posted anything in response to daus' article links.

and nothing youve said throughout this thread has made any sense. if one was a true greenie and wanted to live like one its fairly simple. Green Houses (and no not glass ones) are hugely popular, cost effective in the long run, virtually 100% environmentally friendly and literally recyclable. and you can build one is any modern day suburb or whatever climate you wish

[impala454]

No, I'm Will and I saw you get owned in NPR arguments for the last 3 years

lol will... like you saying i'm owned means jack shit... you ever get into UT?

[impala454]

impala you havent posted anything in response to daus' article links.

daus posted a link to some environmentalists blog... wtf do you think it's gonna say?

and nothing youve said throughout this thread has made any sense. if one was a true greenie and wanted to live like one its fairly simple. Green Houses (and no not glass ones) are hugely popular, cost effective in the long run, virtually 100% environmentally friendly and literally recyclable. and you can build one is any modern day suburb or whatever climate you wish

show me one

[JRockTTU]

yeah i'm clueless... these dipshit uppity prius buyers think they're better than everyone else because they bought a hybrid. a hybrid whose manufacture includes one of the dirtiest polluting mining operations on the planet. you would have to live like a neanderthal to not affect the environment. the greenies like to pick and choose where they want to be green and it's friggin sad. "oh well I buy organic food", yeah harvested by a dirty diesel powered combine, dumped into a factory full of machines, then delivered by a big dirty diesel powered semi truck. "oh I have solar panels on my roof", yeah on the roof of your house made of wood, with asphalt shingles and in a neighborhood where some squirrel family used to live.
i don't care about the environment. i like the way i live and am not a hypocrite by living in todays modern society and trying to claim i'm not impact the environment.

Maybe some people buy organic food because it's healthier for them? Last I checked, we did live in a free country. What do you care if people want to try to do something for the environment? It's their business if they want to use less energy or try to help out. I agree that they can eat a dick when they try to force the shit on me, and a lot of them are pretty smug, but you're pretty smug yourself when it comes to trying to prove that you doing jack shit makes you better than them.

daus posted a link to some environmentalists blog... wtf do you think it's gonna say?
show me one

learn2google

http://www.aboutmyplanet.com/alternative-e...d-a-green-house

that is one webpage, you can google and find them yourself. They use a lot of recycled materials and energy efficient shit. See GW Bush's house for an example, not Al Gore's.

[impala454]

Maybe some people buy organic food because it's healthier for them? Last I checked, we did live in a free country. What do you care if people want to try to do something for the environment? It's their business if they want to use less energy or try to help out. I agree that they can eat a dick when they try to force the shit on me, and a lot of them are pretty smug, but you're pretty smug yourself when it comes to trying to prove that you doing jack shit makes you better than them.

i don't care if someone wants to do something to help the environment. i do care when people try to tell me that i have to do something to help the environment. as far as the prius story, i just thought it was an interesting irony, that's all.

learn2google

http://www.aboutmyplanet.com/alternative-e...d-a-green-house

that is one webpage, you can google and find them yourself. They use a lot of recycled materials and energy efficient shit. See GW Bush's house for an example, not Al Gore's.

ok of course there's ways to build your house more energy efficient, but it still all boils down to affecting the environment. how did those materials get there? how were they manufactured? etc. of course i'd want to have an energy efficient house, it's cheaper on the bills. but when some greenies pass legislation that makes my shower have less water pressure (which of course I hack out the regulator of any shower head I buy), or make it so my huge dump takes 3 flushes to get down the toilet it's annoying.

and none of it changes the fact that we're having an adverse affect on the environment. from my point of view, everyone pollutes the environment, whether it's because they drive a super-smog 5000 2 ton pickup truck, or because they buy goods which arrived at the store on a super-smog 20000 40 ton semi truck. polluting a little less doesn't change anything, because you're still polluting. the world does not become nicer and greener with more little cute furry animals because your car gets 20 mpg better than someone elses. until we have back to the future mr. fusions all over the place (which i truly believe will happen some day), we will live in a world where there's pollution. it's the way it works, it's our way of life. the world will survive. there's trees in existence that have stood for 5000 years, they'll still be here another 5000 years from now, whether we are or not.

[pebkac]

Sigh... and everyone who has ever eaten beef in their life ingests fat. But you wouldn't argue that someone who eats a McDonalds double quarter pounder every meal of every day is as healthy as someone who actually watches their diet would you?

You're creating a false dilemma in saying that you either have to pollute the environment or not pollute it without acknowledging that there's such thing as different degrees of pollution.

[impala454]

Sigh... and everyone who has ever eaten beef in their life ingests fat. But you wouldn't argue that someone who eats a McDonalds double quarter pounder every meal of every day is as healthy as someone who actually watches their diet would you?

this is a stupid analogy. fat is required for a healthy diet. do you think the planet's 'health' needs pollution? or craves pollution?

You're creating a false dilemma in saying that you either have to pollute the environment or not pollute it without acknowledging that there's such thing as different degrees of pollution.

yeah there's different degrees of pollution. just like there's different degrees of a pile of shit. you know what? they both still smell like shit. and you can't make it better just by shitting less. it's absurd to have someone who shits 2 logs walking over to tell the person who shits 2.5 logs that they need to shit less to help reduce the shit smell.

tell me which you think will happen first
1. we develop the technology to turn trash into energy instead of sending it to landfills (already being developed)
2. we take the entire human race back to square one and live in the forest with stone tools

[James]

this is a stupid analogy. fat is required for a healthy diet. do you think the planet's 'health' needs pollution? or craves pollution?
yeah there's different degrees of pollution. just like there's different degrees of a pile of shit. you know what? they both still smell like shit. and you can't make it better just by shitting less. it's absurd to have someone who shits 2 logs walking over to tell the person who shits 2.5 logs that they need to shit less to help reduce the shit smell.

tell me which you think will happen first
1. we develop the technology to turn trash into energy instead of sending it to landfills (already being developed)
2. we take the entire human race back to square one and live in the forest with stone tools

Actually...the planet does need some carbon dioxide

[Oasis]

lol will... like you saying i'm owned means jack shit... you ever get into UT?

Wow. Nothing has changed.

[impala454]

Wow. Nothing has changed.

what did you expect?

[James]

Lots of stuff has changed. Lance has another new name. So do you and a few others. Sports is no longer dying; it's just flat out dead. That's all I got for now, but I know there's more.

[Dogmeat]

I'm surprised no one discussed this yet... I haven't found any decent links but they discussed it on the world news the other night on some "Dust to Dust" report done. Basically, from manufacture to garbage heap, the hummer will use way less energy than a prius, as well as the prius production itself having adverse affects on the environment. Apparently the big pollutant for the prius, is something like the nickel mining for its lots of batteries being one of the dirtiest, most polluting resources on the planet today.

here's a quick story (yes i know its a hummer site) but it will explain what the story is about.
http://www.hummerguy.net/hummer-news/study...ndly-than-prius

Yeah, I also like how those same people wanna shut down drilling operations in this country because "they ruin the environment" but it's perfectly ok for us to fuck up the middle-eastern environment by that logic.

"environmentalists" are fucking idiots, period. And you can quote me on that

[James]

I'll go you one better: "People are stupid." and you can take that to the bank...quite literally if you get a check from me

[Oasis]

Lots of stuff has changed. Lance has another new name. So do you and a few others. Sports is no longer dying; it's just flat out dead. That's all I got for now, but I know there's more.

People have seemed to mellow out a lot. I know I have, both on here and in real life.

[dauss]

daus posted a link to some environmentalists blog... wtf do you think it's gonna say?

And you posted to some Hummer blog, wtf do you think it's gonna say?

The original blogger(off the environmental one) will post some sort of ignorant statement, much like the article that you posted that some kid wrote as an editorial for his school paper, and which you have taken as fact. The stuff I copied were rebuttals to ignorant people like you that defended this Chris Demorro guy under the comments section.

If nickel is such a problem, perhaps we should blame contracters for using stainless steel in their buildings, roads, and bridges. Blame the entire automotive industry, the foodservice industry, and tool manufacturing for all their stainless steel usage also. While we're at it, blame Sony, Energizer, Rayovac, and Duracell for making billions of batteries that contain nickel. The entire television, speaker, microphone, hard disk drive, credit cards, tranformers, electric motors and generator industry for their obscene use of magnets in their products, which contain nickel. Of course, you can't forget to blame the US for having nickel in US nickels, dimes, quarters and other coinage by the rest of the world that contains nickel. The list goes on and on for the applications of nickel.

Now keep in mind that all of these things have been used for many years, and some for decades and centuries, way before a the concept of a Prius even existed.

[griseyeux]

SHOW ME SOME TITTIES!!!

Titties have never hurt the environment and that is an irrefutable truth.

[FORSAKENR320]

SHOW ME SOME TITTIES!!!

Titties have never hurt the environment and that is an irrefutable truth.

NSFW:
http://www.drewpickles.com/files/HaveAHappyPeriod.jpg

This post has been edited by Psykopath: Jul 2 2007, 07:23 PM

[Psykopath]

"environmentalists" are fucking idiots, period. And you can quote me on that

The "hippie" douchebags that want to do nothing more than bitch and smoke pot (or go all sue happy) are.

The ones that actually care about the world around them, utilizing logic (not found to often on this website) instead of a fad feeling, are a-ok in my book.

[James]

I use logic everytime I post. It goes something like this:

CODE

if I want to piss someone off then
     post
else if I am bored then
     post
else
     don't post
end

[Psykopath]

I use logic everytime I post. It goes something like this:

CODE

if I want to piss someone off then
     post
else if I am bored then
     post
else
     don't post
end

When one speaks of the lack of logic on this board, it should be assumed that both James and Christine are excluded from the discussion.

[Spectatrix]

Awww, I'm so touched...

Granted, Impala would probably disagree that I use logic on a regular basis.

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: Jul 2 2007, 09:41 PM

[impala454]

Now keep in mind that all of these things have been used for many years, and some for decades and centuries, way before a the concept of a Prius even existed.

yup. except the prius is the only one claiming to be all green and treehuggery

[FORSAKENR320]

hi

[impala454]

Here's my post application right here

CODE

void Post()
{
   if(thread == null)
   {
       thread = new thread(InterestingFunnyStupidPointlessOrControversialSubject);
       thread.Start(initialpost);
   }
   while(boredatwork)
   {
     Argue(); Post(); Post(); Argue(); Argue(); Argue();  PissPeopleOff(0);
   }      
}

void Argue(bool windingdown)
{
  Post();
  if(windingdown)
  {
     int numtimesimpalacalledasshole = ReadReply();
     PissPeopleOff(numtimesimpalacalledasshole);
     Argue(false);
  }
  else
  {
     sarcasmlogicandsubtleinsults++;
     Argue(true);
  }

  Agree();
}

void PissPeopleOff(int assholenum)
{
   if(assholenum < 5)
   {
       Post();
       PissPeopleOff(ReadReply());
   }
   else
   {
       ExitThread();
   }
}

int ReadReply()
{
   return numberoftimesimpalacalledasshole;
}

[Psykopath]

heh, very nice

[dauss]

yup. except the prius is the only one claiming to be all green and treehuggery

The car actually claimed that? Proof please.

[Dogmeat]

The "hippie" douchebags that want to do nothing more than bitch and smoke pot (or go all sue happy) are.

The ones that actually care about the world around them, utilizing logic (not found to often on this website) instead of a fad feeling, are a-ok in my book.

In my actual real world experience dealing with so-called logical "environmentalists", I quite frankly can't find any real sort of logic despite their claims. I see obstructionist elitist mentalities that prevade virtually ever "sensible" thing thing they claim they do.

I've read through countless BLM, USFS, State DEQ's, etc proposals and papers on subjects ranging from deer migration and how this effects oil and gas pipelines to public access for snowmobile and OHV's to fucking MOUNTAIN BIKES. Hence far the vast majority of what I've read is a bunch of half-assed government beauracratic political statements made on part of government agencies for politicans scratching backs than I have actual environmental science.

If I had to give a very liberal estimate of how much of what so-called "environmental proposals" as far as allowing drilling operations and public access to national forests and other various types of land go, I'd say roughly %10 of what the environmentalists put out has anything to do with actually protecting "the environment" and the other %90 of it is pure political bullshit.

[Psykopath]

In my actual real world experience dealing with so-called logical "environmentalists", I quite frankly can't find any real sort of logic despite their claims. I see obstructionist elitist mentalities that prevade virtually ever "sensible" thing thing they claim they do.

I've read through countless BLM, USFS, State DEQ's, etc proposals and papers on subjects ranging from deer migration and how this effects oil and gas pipelines to public access for snowmobile and OHV's to fucking MOUNTAIN BIKES. Hence far the vast majority of what I've read is a bunch of half-assed government beauracratic political statements made on part of government agencies for politicans scratching backs than I have actual environmental science.

If I had to give a very liberal estimate of how much of what so-called "environmental proposals" as far as allowing drilling operations and public access to national forests and other various types of land go, I'd say roughly %10 of what the environmentalists put out has anything to do with actually protecting "the environment" and the other %90 of it is pure political bullshit.

I'll agree to a point. Just as any other interest group, environmentalists are heavily influenced by political motivations.

[Dogmeat]

I'll agree to a point. Just as any other interest group, environmentalists are heavily influenced by political motivations.

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is, I think I generally partake in "using the environment" so to speak a hell of a lot more than that people who vote for the people who claim they are protecting it.

Why in the world would I want to fuck up the outdoor world I love to be in? Seriously ...

If I thought for one second me riding a 4-wheeler, snowmobile, working in the oil and gas industry, shitting in the woods, etc ... was creating havoc I wouldn't be doing it.

I guess the way I see it is, they're paying me a pretty good wage, but it's sure as hell not enough to give up things that are important to me in that respect.

[Psykopath]

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is, I think I generally partake in "using the environment" so to speak a hell of a lot more than that people who vote for the people who claim they are protecting it.

Why in the world would I want to fuck up the outdoor world I love to be in? Seriously ...

If I thought for one second me riding a 4-wheeler, snowmobile, working in the oil and gas industry, shitting in the woods, etc ... was creating havoc I wouldn't be doing it.

I guess the way I see it is, they're paying me a pretty good wage, but it's sure as hell not enough to give up things that are important to me in that respect.

Speaking of 4-wheeler, snowmobiling, amidst the trees shatting...

We still need to go camping. ='(

[Dogmeat]

Speaking of 4-wheeler, snowmobiling, amidst the trees shatting...

We still need to go camping. ='(

We must aquire women for this as well. We must .... bring them .... so that we can scare them!