Do you believe you have Free Will?, a philosophical debate Options

[Epic]

Alright everyone, just a philosophical debate/dialog.

The boards are full of the same political banter back and forth, so let's try something different.

Basically, do you believe in free will? do you have it?

Let's try to keep this clean and not personal. Be smart, not petty.




Personally, I vote no. Why?
a. No one ever asked me if I wanted to exist. because of that, my actions are directly a response to a denial of free will, and therefore not my own.

b. Consequentialism. I believe that every event is interrelated. I do think there was a "big bang" type event, but I don't bother myself with what happened before that other than everything that happens is a product of what happened, and therefore predictable and unavoidable. No free will there either.

Paging Jessica to the thread!

[Psykopath]

My birth may not have been of my free will, but given that I was born I can safely look back on that event and know that had I had a choice in the matter then I would have elected to have been born. I guess you can call that a retroactive mentality concerning the free will of one's birth.

But yes, biology is a process that operates seemingly beyond the constraints of "free will," per say. You don't force each single cell into mitosis, it just happens.

Free will seems to encompass more of a set of extra-biological factors - emotions, responses, choices - than not, although there are always exceptions.


I like this thread's concept. I'll be back to it after my job interview.

[James]

Yes, but only in the details. The main theme is not for me to decide.

[Mommy]

Most of the people on here are probably compatiblists.

[cupcake]

no

the interconnectedness of everything is far too intricate for me to believe there isn't a plan. while I have to put forth great effort, while I succeed, while I fuck up...that is all part of the plan. my buddies, most of whom are atheists, think I'm insane when it comes to this. My chick who is a christian also thinks I am insane...in regards to the other side.

but I've had too many trippy experiences in life to dismiss it all as coincidence or much ado about nothing. it's what emerson calls the universal or over-soul.

I have honed and conditioned my perception over the past couple decades to recognize that which normally goes unnoticed or unobserved.

I don't mean like a ninja...I mean like a medicine man or soothsayer.

or maybe I'm just truly insane.

[Seeker]

You sound Buddhist or Taoist, which is a good thing.

[THECHICKEN]

Is your brain "you"?

Does a loss of free will at one point in your life (imprisoned) negate true free will?

Could i REALLY decide to punch a random person... and if i did was it because i chose too, or because it was meant to happen?

[impala454]

I'm not really sure how anyone could answer "no" to this particular question. Free will is your ability to make choices. Whether it's one as simple as where to get dinner, or as complicated as what career path you want to enter into. Sure, your experiences and beliefs will influence your decisions, but you still have the ability to make choices.

[James]

Just because you make a choice doesn't mean that choice wasn't predetermined, which seems like it would ultimately not be your choice.

[moebary]

You've already made the choice, now you have to understand it.

[impala454]

Just because you make a choice doesn't mean that choice wasn't predetermined, which seems like it would ultimately not be your choice.

that makes no sense... if it was pre-determined, then you didn't have a choice. you can't have a pre-determined choice.

[James]

Just because you don't know that it was pre-determined doesn't mean that it wasn't is what I meant, I guess. What I'm saying makes sense to me. Sorry it doesn't to you.

[Testm0nkey]

your brain and physiology dictate your behavior with relatively little "conscious" control. do you have free will? a wee little bit

[Spectatrix]

Yes, but our actions are heavily influenced by circumstances in the world around us.

[FORSAKENR320]

I'm not really sure how anyone could answer "no" to this particular question. Free will is your ability to make choices. Whether it's one as simple as where to get dinner, or as complicated as what career path you want to enter into. Sure, your experiences and beliefs will influence your decisions, but you still have the ability to make choices.

i believe there is a supreme being who will sit in judgement of my actions when i die. i believe that the supreme being already knows if i am going to hell or heaven when i am born. to think that this being is less than omnipotent is kinda flawed, to me, the universe was created for a purpose and everything in it. i feel that "freedom of choice" was given to us so that WE may have the ability to think out our own choices and consequences.... if you choose to steal something, you have wieghed and considered the options and did it of your own free will in your mind. just because someone else already knew you would do it doesn't matter too much.

maybe the supreme irony is that freedom of choice was given to us so that when we die, we are capable of looking back on our own lives and judging OURSELVES to be worthy of heaven or hell... heh

[Testm0nkey]

Yes, but our actions are heavily influenced by circumstances in the world around us.

and those actions are dictated and sometimes predetermined by your brain. even to things like your career path.

before you actually are consciously aware of your desire to move your finger your brain triggers motor neurons in your brain to move it.
you are made conscious of this "free will choice of movement" per say when your brain moves your finger for you. you arent deciding anything.
and its obvious if there is such a thing as free will humans are one of the few life forms to have it. i dont know the religious ideas of free will if its just a man thing or god created everything with it

[Divergent Realit...]

yaaaaaaaay

biology vs theology

now we need someone arguing for machine free will.

[Testm0nkey]

its a mind vs body problem. its been debated for centuries and one of the sparks (if not the first) that created the study of psychology

[Jim]

that makes no sense... if it was pre-determined, then you didn't have a choice. you can't have a pre-determined choice.

How can an Omnipotent God know everything yet still give you free choice?

I'm just saying, not trying to bring god in, but it's the same argument being offered here.

[Testm0nkey]

keep this going!

this idea is one of the major reasons why i chose to go into behavioral neuroscience for grad school

[James]

Think all the posters have already posted

[kcroxyoursox]

if you choose to steal something, you have wieghed and considered the options and did it of your own free will in your mind

Here's the way I see it-


God:Shakespeare::KC:Juliet

Shakespeare wrote what will happen. Just like God (or Allah, or whoever) wrote what will happen. Though she may have had "a choice," if she hadn't drank the poison, she wouldn't be Juliet.

You may think you have a choice, but whatever you "choose" was what you were intended to choose. If you make a choice, and then do the opposite of that choice, you were always meant to do the opposite, no matter what you "chose"

[schwab]

yes

[Billy]

Nope.

[FORSAKENR320]

Here's the way I see it-
God:Shakespeare::KC:Juliet

Shakespeare wrote what will happen. Just like God (or Allah, or whoever) wrote what will happen. Though she may have had "a choice," if she hadn't drank the poison, she wouldn't be Juliet.

You may think you have a choice, but whatever you "choose" was what you were intended to choose. If you make a choice, and then do the opposite of that choice, you were always meant to do the opposite, no matter what you "chose"

i kinda see what you are saying, it's a difficult concept to keep a firm grasp of in my mind, is the problem.

i see similar to what you say... but shakespeare knew that juliet was going to take the poison BEFORE he wrote the story. maybe juliet took the poison of her own free will... shakespeare knew she would do it, so he wrote the story so that she would take the poison....



i tried to imagine it as playing chess, or battle tactics... you anticipate what the other person is going to do, and then plan in advance for it. knowing that someone is going to place a pawn in B7 and planning your future moves accordingly doesn't infringe on their free will. God could just be the ultimate tactician.

[zetec]

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will

Are you motherfuckers saying that RUSH IS WRONG?!

[impala454]

I am a Christian, and I believe God has a plan for your life, but it is your own will to follow that plan. Being omnicient doesn't mean he's making people's choices for them, it just means he already knows what you're going to do.

Let me ask you guys this: Person A and Person B. Person A has a time machine and knows for a fact that Person B will choose to eat at McDonalds for dinner later. Meanwhile, Person B has no knowledge of this, and it's dinner time. When Person B chooses McDonalds, was that a pre-determined choice, or his own free will?

[cupcake]

I'm not really sure how anyone could answer "no" to this particular question. Free will is your ability to make choices. Whether it's one as simple as where to get dinner, or as complicated as what career path you want to enter into. Sure, your experiences and beliefs will influence your decisions, but you still have the ability to make choices.

you don't get it because you're early on. you will at some point, but you won't know that you did. it will just be.

old souls recognize things because they've already done them, seen them, or fucked them up. until they are no longer fuckin up.

do you actually believe dudes like mozart are born with the natural gift of perfect composition and piano at 5yrs old (when most kids are working on writing their fuckin name), as in some wild fluke?

they perfect that skill in a previous experience...over and over and over...until one go-'round they "get it"...and that's the last life before graduating to heaven or God or whatever you believe in.

if you've ever met someone who's got it, you'd realize they are not like us. I've met one person who was on his last life...who had everything figured out and led a righteous life. his impact on every person he met was noticeable at the least, and profound as a rule.

I'm a christian who's made his own conclusions based on what I've witnessed, experienced, studied, and meditated on.

there is a plan, and free will is a facade. nothing anyone says can make me believe otherwise.

[Billy]

It would have to be predetermined.

I can program a computer to output two outputs: A and B. Depending on what I input into that computer, it will output A or B. Let's say if I input 1 it gives an 'A' and if I input 2 it gives a 'B'. Now, I input 1 and it outputs an A. Did it choose to output A or is that nothing more than a response to an input?

All of our choices are a response to an input. Depending on that input, we will always have the same output. It is, however, a very complex set of inputs. Inputs include: what is the current situation? what similar event happened in the past and what consequence did it have? And for the more intelligent: what possible consequences will occur in the future?

The answers to these inputs will determine the output response we give...every time. You do not make a choice. You simply respond to a set of inputs accordingly.

[impala454]

you don't get it because you're early on. you will at some point, but you won't know that you did. it will just be.

old souls recognize things because they've already done them, seen them, or fucked them up. until they are no longer fuckin up.

because I'm early on?

do you actually believe dudes like mozart are born with the natural gift of perfect composition and piano at 5yrs old (when most kids are working on writing their fuckin name), as in some wild fluke?

what does this have to do with free will?

there is a plan, and free will is a facade. nothing anyone says can make me believe otherwise.

I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I also believe God has a plan for your life. I also believe God is omnicient. I think you guys are getting a little too philisophical and not thinking about the simple act of making a decision. I posted a question above and no one has answered it.

[impala454]

It would have to be predetermined.

I can program a computer to output two outputs: A and B. Depending on what I input into that computer, it will output A or B. Let's say if I input 1 it gives an 'A' and if I input 2 it gives a 'B'. Now, I input 1 and it outputs an A. Did it choose to output A or is that nothing more than a response to an input?

All of our choices are a response to an input. Depending on that input, we will always have the same output. It is, however, a very complex set of inputs. Inputs include: what is the current situation? what similar event happened in the past and what consequence did it have? And for the more intelligent: what possible consequences will occur in the future?

The answers to these inputs will determine the output response we give...every time. You do not make a choice. You simply respond to a set of inputs accordingly.

You're not making sense. When you recieve an input, then give an output, that is the process of you making a choice.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/choose

to select from a number of possibilities

you recieve the possibilites as input, and your output is a selection. that's what a choice is!

[kcroxyoursox]

You're not making sense. When you recieve an input, then give an output, that is the process of you making a choice.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/choose

you recieve the possibilites as input, and your output is a selection. that's what a choice is!

But the computer didn't choose its output. The output was dictated by someone independent of the computer.

[cupcake]

you don't get it. it's a plan. to think you are the master of your universe is akin to thinking there is only life on earth.

very haughty.

there is more going on in the universe than what you perceive.

[impala454]

But the computer didn't choose its output. The output was dictated by someone independent of the computer.

right, which is why computers don't have free will

[impala454]

you don't get it. it's a plan. to think you are the master of your universe is akin to thinking there is only life on earth.

very haughty.

there is more going on in the universe than what you perceive.

haughty? take a look in the mirror. this from the guy saying I don't get it because I'm "too early" and acting like you have it all figured out. how old are you anyways, mr "i have it all figured out and you don't"?

i do not believe i'm the "master of my universe"

i do believe in God, and believe he has a master plan for my life

i do believe everything happens for a reason

i do know what the definition of a choice is, and that i make them every day. making choices is free will. i'm not talking about ruling over my own destiny, i'm talking about what the simple definition of free will and making your own decisions is. just because something is pre-determined doesn't mean you're not making a decision.

look at it this way, God knew what choices you were going to make before you made them, he didn't make the choices for you. I don't understand how you can claim to be a Christian, and yet completely disagree with the notion of free will. God created us to have free will, so that we may choose to worship him and follow his plan for our lives.

[chook]

My hatred for the Lubbock City Council is def free will.

[cupcake]

it's not about age...it's about how many times you've gone through all this. it's not a haughty statement...it's about as haughty as saying "hey your hair is black". when I say too early, I'm saying your early on in your cycle though all this. my sister is too, as are many people very important to me.

and quit getting so pissy. if you want to think I am being mean that is on you. the fact that you're not getting what I'm saying is what make me believe you are early on.

I'm far from having it all figured out.

but I have done this a few times I know that much. how else would you explain that going to new places and knowing exactly where I was going and what I was going to see there or encounter? knowing before I go in if shit was going to be positive or negative? how else can you explain recognizing someone you've never met before and them being significantly important to you for the rest of your life? how can you explain never having read something, yet as you read it you know what it is going to say almost word for word?

just because something is pre-determined doesn't mean you're not making a decision.

that's the key difference here in my opinion. yes God has us make our own choices, but in the end there is only one choice to make. that is not free will.

one caveat...I suppose you could explain the daily (really...every day) experiences I have as some sort of ESP thing...but that seems like a way way too far out possibility. I find it much more plausible to think we keep doing it til we get it right (right as in what God wants).

[Mommy]

I dont believe in Free Will in the sense that we have complete power to chose between two options without any influence from outside factors. Everything in this world is very ornate and exact. Our "choices" are a result of outside factors, hence they are determined. We are programmed to do what we think will make us happy. Any thought, action, consequence can be traced back to a physical scientific law which is not altered and can also be traced back, because it too is determined. I like to think of this subject in terms of dominoes. When a stream of dominoes are arranged in a certain way, the first one can be knocked over, which will cause the next to fall, and the next and the next and so on. The dominoes are acted upon by each other, unless there is a flaw in the arrangement of the dominoes. Compare this to people. We are acted upon by outside factors. What determines my actions and thoughts is what happens outside of my body physically, and then inside my body physically.

I suppose it is possible to stretch the meaning of free will to mean "the ability to do that which will make us happy". If we were to define it this way, then yes free will does exist. The problem is, it is in our human nature to chose what will make us happy. Again, determined; but yes we have the ability to do things that will bring happiness and pleasure. I don't believe in completely selfless acts, which does not downplay the greatness of what some people do (military servicemen, martyrs, etc) but those actions are done for a reason. Martyrs died for their beliefs and the idea that there would be a heavenly reward. Servicemen find pride (happiness) in serving and defending their country.

Alternatively, though, I absolutely despise the argument that free will doesn't exist because God already knows what is going to happen. I shouldn't have to explain why this is a poor argument.

[cupcake]

jessica's smart?

wtf!?

ftw!

[Mommy]

jessica's smart?

wtf!?

ftw!

shocking, isnt it?

[Billy]

right, which is why computers don't have free will

Now put 2 and 2 together...


I've made this argument in the past and I'll make it again, because it's something to do.

There are two things I want to seperate: Having Choices and Making Choices. The first I will talk about in paragraph 1 is Making Choices.

My argument with the computer is that you cannot Make Choices. You do not have the ability to make a choice any more than a computer does, and here's why: You can process information, much like a computer. And then you can make a "decision" on what to do because of that information, much like a computer (in my previous example: output 'A'). But never in that process do you nor the computer Make a Choice (keep reading!). You output based on what you received as an input. Just like a computer. But the differnce between us and a computer is the complexity of the inputs and the fact that we do not know beforehand the output (well, one could argue a computer doesn't know the outputs either until it's time to output), except in very simple situations. Because a computer reacts on situations that are simple, we are able to see that a computer does not have free will. But because our inputs, processes, and decisions are usually not nearly as simple, it is difficult to see that we are much like a computer.

And if a computer does not have free will, then neither do we.

The second is Having Choices. In part of your argument you believe we can Make Choices because we have the ability to process information and make a decision (give an output). I may have to explain why I think this is wrong again, but it's ok, I have all day. The second part of your argument is that we have Free Will because we Have Choices. In the past, I argued why having choices does not mean you have free will. If I gave you a gun in public and told you to shoot me, you would not do it. You have the choice, but because you are intelligent enough to know there are major future consequences to complying, you will never choose to do so.

Having the choice of A, B, and C but only having the ability to choose A does not mean you have free will, if free will is having the ability to choose any A, B, or C.

[woody]

living in a vacuum (no outside factors) you'd have no choices to make.

if you're in a isolated forest, your choices are going to be determined by your environment; weather, supplies, survival, suicide, food, etc. so it takes outside factors for a choice to be available. we respond to what surrounds us. i don't think that they are always pre-determined, but i believe we have little control over some of them (e.g., weather).

do we make choices that will being us happiness, sometimes. sometimes we make choices in hopes that the outcome will being us happiness.

[Epic]

i love how everyone has ignored both of my arguments!

but this is great reading, keep it up everyone!

[Mommy]

i love how everyone has ignored both of my arguments!

but this is great reading, keep it up everyone!

I just responded to the part where you paged me

[woody]

a. No one ever asked me if I wanted to exist. because of that, my actions are directly a response to a denial of free will, and therefore not my own.

Did you make the choice to enter the egg when you were a sperm?

[impala454]

it's not about age...it's about how many times you've gone through all this. it's not a haughty statement...it's about as haughty as saying "hey your hair is black". when I say too early, I'm saying your early on in your cycle though all this. my sister is too, as are many people very important to me.

and quit getting so pissy. if you want to think I am being mean that is on you. the fact that you're not getting what I'm saying is what make me believe you are early on.

I'm far from having it all figured out.

but I have done this a few times I know that much. how else would you explain that going to new places and knowing exactly where I was going and what I was going to see there or encounter? knowing before I go in if shit was going to be positive or negative? how else can you explain recognizing someone you've never met before and them being significantly important to you for the rest of your life? how can you explain never having read something, yet as you read it you know what it is going to say almost word for word?
that's the key difference here in my opinion. yes God has us make our own choices, but in the end there is only one choice to make. that is not free will.

one caveat...I suppose you could explain the daily (really...every day) experiences I have as some sort of ESP thing...but that seems like a way way too far out possibility. I find it much more plausible to think we keep doing it til we get it right (right as in what God wants).

I understand perfectly what you're saying. It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of free will. You obviously have the thought that you've been through "more lives" than the rest of us, and therefore have come to the conclusion that you know what we don't. If that's not "haughty" I dunno what is. Tell me, with your enlightened mind, how going through a past life would mean you have no free will in the next life. Even if it were true (which I think is a crock o shit), all it would mean is you simply have more experiences to draw from, to make better decisions.

your statement:
"yes God has us make our own choices, but in the end there is only one choice to make. that is not free will."
makes absolutely no sense. how would god have us make our own choices, but give us only one choice to make? if there's only one way to go, you never had a choice in the first place! you're getting a little too caught up in your own psycho babble here bud, and not thinking about how simple this really is.

[impala454]

Now put 2 and 2 together...
I've made this argument in the past and I'll make it again, because it's something to do.

There are two things I want to seperate: Having Choices and Making Choices. The first I will talk about in paragraph 1 is Making Choices.

My argument with the computer is that you cannot Make Choices. You do not have the ability to make a choice any more than a computer does, and here's why: You can process information, much like a computer. And then you can make a "decision" on what to do because of that information, much like a computer (in my previous example: output 'A'). But never in that process do you nor the computer Make a Choice (keep reading!). You output based on what you received as an input. Just like a computer. But the differnce between us and a computer is the complexity of the inputs and the fact that we do not know beforehand the output (well, one could argue a computer doesn't know the outputs either until it's time to output), except in very simple situations. Because a computer reacts on situations that are simple, we are able to see that a computer does not have free will. But because our inputs, processes, and decisions are usually not nearly as simple, it is difficult to see that we are much like a computer.

And if a computer does not have free will, then neither do we.

The second is Having Choices. In part of your argument you believe we can Make Choices because we have the ability to process information and make a decision (give an output). I may have to explain why I think this is wrong again, but it's ok, I have all day. The second part of your argument is that we have Free Will because we Have Choices. In the past, I argued why having choices does not mean you have free will. If I gave you a gun in public and told you to shoot me, you would not do it. You have the choice, but because you are intelligent enough to know there are major future consequences to complying, you will never choose to do so.

Having the choice of A, B, and C but only having the ability to choose A does not mean you have free will, if free will is having the ability to choose any A, B, or C.

obviously, I would choose not to shoot someone in cold blood. but the choice was still presented to me. tell me something, what did you do when you chose the white socks instead of the gray socks at wal mart? did God predetermine you to choose white? was there an algorithm in your head that made you pick white, and if you were presented with the choice 10,000,000 more times, you would always choose white??

[cupcake]

I wasn't talking to everyone, I was talking to you. don't lump yourself in with all these people. if you want to take offense to that, that is all on you man. I'm positive there are older souls than mine on here.

to think otherwise would be haughty.

you just don't get what I am saying at all.

it is obvious no one can discuss anything with you. you're always right and anyone who doesn't agree step in step with you is wrong. it doesn't work like that...

do me a favor, go over to military.com and look up a dude on the marine board named ipscone. he's always right too...the war-dodger ran all the good combat marines off with his incessant far right political babble and constantly argumentative style.

your epersonnae is like his son...and that is not a good thing.

I try to make you see what I am saying, but no amount of trying will ever sway. there is zero use in answering any of your questions. I have no time in my life for even more anxiety than I already cope with.

we're done here.

[Testm0nkey]

chossing to not shoot someone in cold blood is not an example of free will. its thousands of years of social responsibility stemming from evolution. its a hardwired response. killers, while most not being technically crazy, are the outliers, exceptions, caused by environmental and family issues that also nearly predetermine anti social behavior
if even our own personalities arent examples of free will what is

[Mommy]

I understand perfectly what you're saying. It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of free will. You obviously have the thought that you've been through "more lives" than the rest of us, and therefore have come to the conclusion that you know what we don't. If that's not "haughty" I dunno what is. Tell me, with your enlightened mind, how going through a past life would mean you have no free will in the next life. Even if it were true (which I think is a crock o shit), all it would mean is you simply have more experiences to draw from, to make better decisions.

your statement:
"yes God has us make our own choices, but in the end there is only one choice to make. that is not free will."
makes absolutely no sense. how would god have us make our own choices, but give us only one choice to make? if there's only one way to go, you never had a choice in the first place! you're getting a little too caught up in your own psycho babble here bud, and not thinking about how simple this really is.

I havent read this whole thread, but I didnt interprate Cupcake saying that he has had multiple lives, but rather a continuous spirit, which is well within the Christian belief system. We were a soul in heaven before we were sent to earth in physical form. Then again, like I said, I havent been reading all of this thread.

[impala454]

it is obvious no one can discuss anything with you. you're always right and anyone who doesn't agree step in step with you is wrong. it doesn't work like that...

I simply questioned your response to me. Which, as far as I know is what a debate/discussion is. If you don't want to debate or discuss topics, why are you on here?

your epersonnae is like his son...and that is not a good thing.

lol "son". gimme a break. oh wait I forgot you're like 10000 years old right? I could care less about my "epersonnae" or what you guys think of it. the vast majority of you don't know me in person at all, save for just meeting briefly a couple times. the bottom line is, I enjoy arguing/debating/discussing, whatever you want to call what we do on here. it makes people think, it makes people question their beliefs, it makes people look shit up instead of talking out of their ass. if you give in to other people, or don't defend your own positions, you never expand your way of thinking or strengthen your beliefs.

I try to make you see what I am saying, but no amount of trying will ever sway.

I didn't realize that we were attempting to sway anyone's beliefs, but simply presenting and debating them.

there is zero use in answering any of your questions.

well then I guess you really are done w/the debate. I'd like to see what happened to a presidential candidate who said something like this in a debate, rather than addressing his opponent's questions.

I have no time in my life for even more anxiety than I already cope with.

Sorry man. Don't let it get to you. It gets a lil fierce on here sometimes and yeah I know more often than not I'm one of the causes. Honestly I don't have anything against any of you, we just happen to disagree on many of the topics discussed. It's really interesting to me, as some occasions I can have a 15 page thread argument with one person, flames all over, and then on some other topic, we'll completely agree.

[impala454]

chossing to not shoot someone in cold blood is not an example of free will. its thousands of years of social responsibility stemming from evolution. its a hardwired response. killers, while most not being technically crazy, are the outliers, exceptions, caused by environmental and family issues that also nearly predetermine anti social behavior

if choosing not to shoot someone in cold blood is not free will, then you've just proved yourself wrong. if there is no choice but to *not* shoot someone, in cold blood, then it would never happen. yet it does. yes your past will help determine the choices you make, but they don't make the choices for you.

[cupcake]

jessica, no I believe we live multiple lives. I think we keep living the same one over and over and over until we get it right. (right as in what God wants). I don't believe we really go to hell. I think we are in it right now. and that it's all one big test. that we're in "heaven", and for whatever reason it's our time to be tested...that is when we become babies. for the rest of our lives we're trying to get back into heaven, or to God.

there is no choice but the right one. that to me is not free will. free will to me is choosing between moving to LA or Boston and it not mattering. but it does matter. it matters a lot to the creator who has us in motion. I've made decisions that felt wrong (not bad, but wrong) and made others where I felt like it was right (not good, but right). I'm at the point now where I've accepted I may be halfass crazy, but after I make a decision about something and then I have a deja vu, I'll feel good and on the right track. I have deja vu sometimes several times a day. that is great.

it's when I don't that I start getting worried.

I don't have any way to explain some things except, fuck it, I've obviously done this, been here before.

for example, swear to god, I was riding with my buddy last night and we're going to eat. we sit at the stop light...two lanes that can turn left, and we're in the right one. we sit there and I am obviously bothered by being in that lane, and he's like "what is it?", and I say I think we should be in the left lane. we start turning and the lady in the lane left of us goes straight and slams into the left rear quarter panel of his charger (his baby). needless to say he is furious. and tripped out "man you told me! you told me!'

what is the reason I said we should be in another lane? both lanes turn left, and I've done it a million times in either lane with no accidents? why that time?

I can't think of anything except we've done that before. there was a right and wrong choice to make. to me that is not free will.

[impala454]

well say these things happen to you, and that you've been re-living the same life over and over. what about the first time? do you have free will the first time and not the rest? it seems to me your deja vus are simply aiding you in making your decision. your buddy had the decision, he could either get in the left lane or stay where he was.

what about a decision as simple as choosing which color shirt to buy?

[James]

The obvious answer is to buy EVERY color shirt

[Mommy]

jessica, no I believe we live multiple lives. I think we keep living the same one over and over and over until we get it right. (right as in what God wants). I don't believe we really go to hell. I think we are in it right now. and that it's all one big test. that we're in "heaven", and for whatever reason it's our time to be tested...that is when we become babies. for the rest of our lives we're trying to get back into heaven, or to God.

there is no choice but the right one. that to me is not free will. free will to me is choosing between moving to LA or Boston and it not mattering. but it does matter. it matters a lot to the creator who has us in motion. I've made decisions that felt wrong (not bad, but wrong) and made others where I felt like it was right (not good, but right). I'm at the point now where I've accepted I may be halfass crazy, but after I make a decision about something and then I have a deja vu, I'll feel good and on the right track. I have deja vu sometimes several times a day. that is great.

it's when I don't that I start getting worried.

I don't have any way to explain some things except, fuck it, I've obviously done this, been here before.

for example, swear to god, I was riding with my buddy last night and we're going to eat. we sit at the stop light...two lanes that can turn left, and we're in the right one. we sit there and I am obviously bothered by being in that lane, and he's like "what is it?", and I say I think we should be in the left lane. we start turning and the lady in the lane left of us goes straight and slams into the left rear quarter panel of his charger (his baby). needless to say he is furious. and tripped out "man you told me! you told me!'

what is the reason I said we should be in another lane? both lanes turn left, and I've done it a million times in either lane with no accidents? why that time?

I can't think of anything except we've done that before. there was a right and wrong choice to make. to me that is not free will.

oooo ok, i see what youre saying now

[cupcake]

the first time you're just going at it clueless. but I do feel there is a right and wrong way you're supposed to move through it.

have you ever met anyone who's never had a deja vu? probably. have you ever met someone who has them constantly? probably.

he made that decision, yes. but it was the wrong one obviously. and we both know I knew it was prior to the light turning green. I guess if there is a right choice, then that's why I feel there's no free will.

color shirt? well I'll pick which one I feel right about. is that free will? it seems menial, but God has a plan, and I don't think he can be so intricate about creation of the universe, then just be like "oh I don't care what shirt impala wears". I think it matters.

but in menial things like that we generally make the right decision. but...BUT haven't you ever put something on, that you were questionable about...but did anyway, and sure enough something fucked up or was miserable about it?

or have you ever seen something for the first time and straight up known it was yours? shot every fuckin firearm under the sun and spent more money than you can imagine on this shit...but first time I ever fired the 1911 I knew it was mine. the feeling I had was akin to finding my dog that ran away when i was 5. like it wasn't just a "oh this is cool" feeling. fairly intricate for a pistol, broke that shit down in a minute with no instructions.

if our choices matter to his plan, then I don't view that as free. I have to have a way of justifying this stuff otherwise I would go insane 'cause it happens so much.

dude I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking...just explaining how I see it. no one I know agrees with me, so it's no sweat.

[Mommy]

I must be a newbie because Im not good at anything. Suckage.

[Dogmeat]

I must be a newbie because Im not good at anything. Suckage.

Why do you say that?

[Billy]

obviously, I would choose not to shoot someone in cold blood. but the choice was still presented to me.

I will say it again:

Having the choice of A, B, and C but only having the ability to choose A does not mean you have free will, if free will is having the ability to choose any A, B, or C.

I have concluded, again, that you lack the ability of taking information of a subject from another, understand it, and argue accordingly. I do not mind if you disagree with my beliefs. But I do get annoyed when you make a statement that was invalidated previously.

Like I said in my post: Just because you are given the options of different actions, doesn't give you free will. You would have to able to choose those other options.

if there is no choice but to *not* shoot someone, in cold blood, then it would never happen. yet it does

In the scenario of me giving YOU a gun and having you shoot me to death, you could never *choose* to do so. Given the inputs you have been given thus far in your life, you cannot make that choice. If I gave some psycho a gun and asked them to shoot me, they might be able to. They weren't given the same inputs, and are thus not confined to the same output.

I do have a question for you, given your exceptional poor performance in this argument: do you actually think about what others have already said before you make a statement?


Now, on to trivial things, like choosing one colored shirt over another: uninfluenced by the fact that I am purposely *trying* to have free will (by the act of trying to have free will, I essentially rob myself of it), I will likely pick my favorite looking shirt. Why it is my favorite, I do not know. But I do not pick that at random. I always pick the one I mysteriously like for whatever reason. Also, I always pick different shirts. I never buy two of the same kind. If I lived in a society where everyone always wore the same shirt, I would also buy the same type of the same shirt over and over again.

Like I've said before, just because you make a decision, doesn't mean you've willfully chosen that decision. This issue is simple to you, because you don't understand it's complexity. I know you *think* that by choosing one thing over another, you have actually chosen by free will. But you haven't. If you want to know why, re-read these arguments. But I don't think you will. I am fairly certain you are incapable of changing your opinion. So until you learn how to change your opinion, stop trying to change others'.

Stop being so interested in trying to being right, and be more interested in coming to the right conclusion. It is ok to be wrong. Everyone is wrong every now and again.

[impala454]

he made that decision, yes. but it was the wrong one obviously. and we both know I knew it was prior to the light turning green. I guess if there is a right choice, then that's why I feel there's no free will.

I guess that's the main spot where we differ in opinion then. I see that if we have a choice at all, that is free will.

dude I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking...just explaining how I see it. no one I know agrees with me, so it's no sweat.

well while I may not believe in past lives leading up to this one, I do believe you on the experiences you talk about. I have dreams every now and then that seem to come true at some point much later (like years later). They don't really direct me where to go or what choices to make though (as I don't really recall the dream until after the event takes place). I'm with you on those types of things, I believe lots of stuff in our lives happens for a reason. I could choose to take I-10 or 610 to go home when I leave here today. Usually I'll take a look at the traffic site, and whichever one is less busy I'll take. But they could both be green, and both be wreck free, and both be completely un-eventful drives home.

All I'm saying is, we have choices, both ones that matter and ones that don't. That is the textbook definition of "free will". I think that's another area where we're kinda arguing apples and oranges. You're more along the lines of not having control over the general direction of your life as meaning you do not have free will, which I can actually agree with. I'm more looking at free will as your ability to be presented with a choice and make it, which we all obviously have.

[impala454]

and renegade: so from what you're saying, free will only exists in certain situation? if you hand a "good" person a gun they have no choice, they cannot shoot. but a psycho could?

and with a t-shirt, it's not the one you pick or how you pick it that i'm talking about. it's the fact that you have some to choose from, and you ultimately choose one. by choosing a shirt you have made a decision. no one else chose that shirt but you.

[cupcake]

Renegadepeon's explanation is much less looney toons than mine.

so hey, one of those "things" happened just now. can anyone explain the randomness of this?

when I was 17 me and my best friend were hunting varmits with .22s and he shot a barn owl in flight. we knew that is illegal, and frankly, just wrong as owls are the raddest birds alive...but hey it was a kickASS shot.

I was sitting here and thought about that owl...and looked it up. here is the email I sent him (he's in amarillo, I'm in dallas, we haven't talked in a week or so)...
_____________________

From:
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 3:20 PM
To:
Subject: horned owl

so after much consideration, I've decided that crappy things that happen to you are karma from shooting that horned owl.

a bird taking off in flight with a rifle is a great shot. but I dont know if the powers that be are as stoked and impressed as I was...

his reply:

It’s wild you said that as we talking about Mcbride Canyon and Lake Meredith when your e-mail came…and I was saying how we used to hunt down there which of course brings that up….fkng crazy shit man……

If I ever started a skate company or band ……….’Shredded Gnar Owl’………..’
____________________

coincidence? I don't know shit, but I do know there's far more going on than what joe schmoe perceives...

[cupcake]

he made the wrong decision that day. karma is how he likes to deal with bad shit, so that's how I talk with him. I think there's some karma going on, but I think it's more about making a wrong choice and that putting you on the wrong path, even if just for a short moment in time.

[impala454]

oh for sure man. I know there have been tons of incorrect choices I've made that have had a negative impact on my life. there's also plenty of incorrect choices I've made that have had a positive impact on my life.

but there are choices that have zero affect on your life. would you agree with that?

[zetec]

I am a Christian, and I believe God has a plan for your life, but it is your own will to follow that plan. Being omnicient doesn't mean he's making people's choices for them, it just means he already knows what you're going to do.

ULTIMATE IMPALA TRUMP CARD:

You say computers have no free will, and that god has a plan.

prepare to be blown away in...3...2...1:

The Cylons have a plan.

And they have free will.

[JRockTTU]

jessica's smart?

wtf!?

ftw!

Don't let her fool you, she has a degree in Philosophy.

It's kinda like asking Rainman baseball statistics, then asking him how much a candy bar costs.

[Dogmeat]

this thread reminds me of that stupid ass fucking hippi song about free will or some shit that one dumb hippi bitch sang.

[griseyeux]

and renegade: so from what you're saying, free will only exists in certain situation? if you hand a "good" person a gun they have no choice, they cannot shoot. but a psycho could?

and with a t-shirt, it's not the one you pick or how you pick it that i'm talking about. it's the fact that you have some to choose from, and you ultimately choose one. by choosing a shirt you have made a decision. no one else chose that shirt but you.

yeah, but what if he genuinely desired to purchase a gold, mesh tank top, but didn't because of society's influence (i.e. teasing, abuse)

the choice was his yes, but his decision was bound by the restraints of society.

edit: if you believe in an omnipotent God, then it stands to reason that the being that created the universe is also omniscient. You make your choices but God already knows what they will be and their ultimate outcome, so your will is not genuinely free because God created you and knows how you will decide. Your choices are affected by the traits God gave you.

what's more perhaps he bought a lucky charms t-shirt because he heard a commercial for lucky charms in his sleep. Was that his choice or was he influenced to make that choice (i.e no free will)

This post has been edited by griseyeux: May 25 2007, 06:57 PM

[Epic]

this is all well and good, the whole discussion about what a choice is and whether or not we can make them.

I think something interesting about this conversation is how some people are arguing about the individual, while others argue about the universal. hmmm...two different arguments perhaps and thus the difficult of using one to negate the other.

I'm not a christian, or even a christian slater, however i think that if we believe in free will, what do we make of the whole "judas betraying jesus" part. I mean fuck, the poor guy was actually told by God and Jesus "hey, its your job to make sure Jesus makes it into the hands of the Jews" and all this about it being ordained, destiny, had to happen, etc...

free will is a no, and the bible points it out in that respect. Christ didn't have a choice but to die on the cross, Daddy said so.





I also think that there is one more distinction worth bringing out. Really more of a question of are you living like you have free will or are you living with it? just because i don't believe in free will, it doesn't mean that i don't make "choices" and "decisions" and take pride in my accomplishments. so i live like i have free will because its easier than wallowing in existential angst all day.

[griseyeux]

this is all well and good, the whole discussion about what a choice is and whether or not we can make them.

I think something interesting about this conversation is how some people are arguing about the individual, while others argue about the universal. hmmm...two different arguments perhaps and thus the difficult of using one to negate the other.

I'm not a christian, or even a christian slater, however i think that if we believe in free will, what do we make of the whole "judas betraying jesus" part. I mean fuck, the poor guy was actually told by God and Jesus "hey, its your job to make sure Jesus makes it into the hands of the Jews" and all this about it being ordained, destiny, had to happen, etc...

free will is a no, and the bible points it out in that respect. Christ didn't have a choice but to die on the cross, Daddy said so.
I also think that there is one more distinction worth bringing out. Really more of a question of are you living like you have free will or are you living with it? just because i don't believe in free will, it doesn't mean that i don't make "choices" and "decisions" and take pride in my accomplishments. so i live like i have free will because its easier than wallowing in existential angst all day.

*wallowing in Nihilistic angst.

[Epic]

in response to woody's sperm theory.

well sir, that would be to assume that sperm has consciousness, and that the consciousness i have is in some way the same as the consciousness of that sperm. depends on what we mean by "you"

what i am stating here is not really conception or birth, its existence. we are put here in this cosmic game, perhaps by some god figure and told "welcome! i brought you here! here are some rules and suffer with a smile!" some may argue "maybe you were given a choice to exist, you just can't remember it" well then in my opinion that's a non-issue because our lack of ability to remember a chance to choose is more reasonable than you to play the what if game with me about what might have happened. if we do that, then what if I am god? Is that free will?

one answer...live fucking hard and enjoy it all

[FORSAKENR320]

I must be a newbie because Im not good at anything. EXCEPT Suckage.

fixed

[pebkac]

I'm a firm believer in chaos theory.

Everything that we do is predetermined and ordered. It's just influenced by so many factors that it appears to be chaotic.

[RitalinJunkie]

yes...free will

[jonathan83]

definitely not reading all this...

but yeah, i believe humans are born with free will.
we make our own decisions, and design our own fate.


whether God knows about our decisions beforehand is irrelevant.

[Dogmeat]

god dammit! you're all HIPPIES!!!!!

[impala454]

I think most of you who say we have no free will (not you cupcake) are confusing an influenced decision with the ability to choose. just because a decision may be influenced by some other source doesn't mean you are bound by that influence, or that you can no longer make a choice. an influence doesn't make the decision for you.

[Mommy]

Don't let her fool you, she has a degree in Philosophy.

It's kinda like asking Rainman baseball statistics, then asking him how much a candy bar costs.

Jason.... UNACCEPTABLE..... COURTNEY, MONITOR YOUR MAN.

[Mommy]

fixed

Suck my dick, bitch

[Mommy]

god dammit! you're all HIPPIES!!!!!

Suck my dick, bitch

[Testm0nkey]

I think most of you who say we have no free will (not you cupcake) are confusing an influenced decision with the ability to choose. just because a decision may be influenced by some other source doesn't mean you are bound by that influence, or that you can no longer make a choice. an influence doesn't make the decision for you.

there is no meer "influence" when your brain makes your decision for you before you are conscious of it

[impala454]

there is no meer "influence" when your brain makes your decision for you before you are conscious of it

last time I checked, my brain is me. so if my brain made the decision, that means I made it. geezus.

[Testm0nkey]

if you have no conscious ability to change, decide or prevent anything is that free will? you take a fairly liberal view on the matter. i see it as your brain made the decision. had nothing to do at all with you

[impala454]

so, your brain is not you then? and how the hell is this a liberal position?

[Testm0nkey]

the term liberal doenst just have to do with politics if thats what you thought. theres pretty strong support for your brain not being you at all - in the meaning im guessing you were aiming at

[impala454]

ah ok.

just seems weird to me that one wouldn't consider their brain to be them

[Testm0nkey]

everything you do is because of your brain is it not? what you do with your arms legs doesnt affect your brain, its the other way around. "them" is your consciousness which seriously wtf is that, can you say where it is? and isnt your consciousness ruled by your brain? so then what do we control

their brain isnt them but "them" is their brain

[impala454]

what i'm saying is, my brain is part of me, my whole body is me. i would say my entire existence is my body + my soul. therefore any decision made by any piece of that = me making the decision. i dont understand how you can say "your brain makes the decision but not you"

[Testm0nkey]

if a decision is made and you are not aware of it and had nothing to do with the decision process (meaning no soul/self/conscious role) is it your decision? no. so then does that change simply because your brains in your head? thats how i can say your brain makes the decision not you

[impala454]

so you're not aware of any decisions you make?

[Jim]

And you're aware of every decision your brain makes?

[impala454]

my brain is part of me... brains don't make decisions, whole people make decisions. when someone asks if i want to go out to dinner, i don't say, "hold on lemme see what my brain wants to do".

[Testm0nkey]

you are aware of the decisions you make AFTER theyve already been made by your brain

[John6.7]

Cathryn is right on this one.

Impala, read any psychology book.

what i'm saying is, my brain is part of me, my whole body is me. i would say my entire existence is my body + my soul. therefore any decision made by any piece of that = me making the decision. i dont understand how you can say "your brain makes the decision but not you"

EX, Reflexes. Do you sit there and think about moving away from something hot or do you just do it on reflex?


And for on topic... free will exists cause there is no god.

[Jim]

Impala, you decide to twitch?

[TetraGrammaton C...]

ok, so i skimmed this thread and looks as if we are having the same problem that we did the last time we all had this argument, which is probably irretrievable.
like i believe i said last time, the main issue, is coming up with a suitable definition for free will, as well as the opposing idea. (ex. predetermination vs. choice) or you can say that choice does not exist because of predetermination, but not a holy one, instead a predetermination based on infinite matrices of interactions which cause events to happen the way they do (the narrowing of moves on a go board).
there are way to many ways of looking at this argument. everyone can be "right" (or generally accepted as right) providing they choose a suitable definition of free will. what john stuart mill meant by it and what we mean by it today are fairly different ideas.

[griseyeux]

my brain is part of me... brains don't make decisions, whole people make decisions. when someone asks if i want to go out to dinner, i don't say, "hold on lemme see what my brain wants to do".

Sorry Impala, but this rebuttal is completely invalid. Um you wouldn't be hungry if it weren't for your hypothalmus. (a part of your brain)
Also, thinking about whether or not want to go to dinner is using your brain. Your preferences (concerning food and everything else) are decided upon and stored by your brain. When someone asks if you want to go out to dinner you're using your brain to process the question, to formulate an answer and to respond physically. (using your voice)

[James]

Impala, you decide to twitch?

Twitching doesn't require a working brain, so does that even matter?

[James]

Cathryn is right on this one.

Impala, read any psychology book.
EX, Reflexes. Do you sit there and think about moving away from something hot or do you just do it on reflex?
And for on topic... free will exists cause there is no god.

Do reflexes require brain activity? I'm not sure that they do. Would be interested to see a study that took MRI's of subjects while testing reflexes.