student tattles on teacher for critizing bush Options

[Seeker]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...=la-home-nation

DENVER — It was the day after President Bush's State of the Union address, and social studies teacher Jay Bennish was warning his world geography class not to be taken in.

"Sounds a lot like the things that Adolf Hitler used to say," Bennish told students at the suburban high school Feb. 2. " 'We're the only ones who are right, everyone else is backward and our job is to conquer the world.' "

The teacher quickly made clear that he wasn't equating Bush with Hitler, but the damage was done. A sophomore in the class had recorded the lecture on an MP3 player, and turned it over this week to a local conservative talk radio show.

Bennish, who has taught at Overland High School for five years, was placed on paid leave Wednesday by the Cherry Creek School District, sparking an uproar over issues of free speech and teacher conduct.

About 150 Overland students walked out of class Thursday to protest Bennish's absence, and the teacher's lawyer — who met with district officials Friday — has threatened a federal lawsuit.

Attorney David Lane contended on the Mike Rosen radio show, which originally played the tape, that his client's comments were not outlandish and were intended to get students to think about current events.

"Maybe it's not mainstream, middle-American opinion," Lane said Friday. "But the rest of the world agrees with him."

Lane added that if Bennish had spoken strongly in support of Bush, he would not be under investigation.

Tustin Amole, a spokeswoman for the school district, said officials were investigating whether Bennish had violated a policy that prohibited teachers from intimidating students who held political beliefs different from their own.

"Teachers do have a 1st Amendment right to express their opinion," Amole said, "but it must be in the context of the material being taught and it must provide a balanced point of view."

The Cherry Creek district, with 47,000 students, encompasses an arc of suburbs southeast of Denver; voter registration within its boundaries leans slightly Republican.

A partial transcript of the student's recording portrayed Bennish voicing a range of criticisms of U.S. policy and the war in Iraq. Bennish has not disputed the accuracy of the recording.

The teacher said in the recording that American troops had spent 30 years fighting the drug war in Colombia and using chemical weapons to eradicate coca fields. Bennish called the U.S. "probably the single most violent nation on planet Earth," saying it had committed more than 7,000 "terrorist sabotage acts" against Cuba.

During the class, Bennish questioned why the United States was allowed to wage war in the Middle East but Palestinians were condemned as terrorists for attacking Israel. A student interjected that the U.S. did not single out civilians, unlike Palestinian terrorists. The teacher asked students how Israel was created, telling them that Zionists used assassination and bombings to create their state.

According to the transcript, Bennish concluded by telling his students: "I'm not implying in any way you should agree with me …. What I'm trying to do is to get you to … think about these issues more in depth." He thanked them for asking questions.

Reed Dickson, director of a program at Columbia's Teachers College that places Peace Corps volunteers in urban classrooms, said he thought teachers should express their personal political opinions in class and feared that cases such as Bennish's could intimidate some from questioning the government.

But, Dickson added, teachers must exercise restraint so they don't impose their views on students. "Once the teacher takes on the role of indoctrinating, the educational process is not possible," he said.

Rodney Smolla, dean of the University of Richmond law school in Virginia and a 1st Amendment expert, said that courts allow school districts to regulate teachers' speech.

"Teachers have 1st Amendment rights to speak on matters of public interest in the general marketplace, but they don't have as great a level of rights when speaking inside the classroom on matters related to the curriculum," he said.

[Spectatrix]

I think the teacher has a pretty good case. They should be able to defend him fairly easily.

[taatimmi]

w/ the shortage of teachers, and the importance of what they do, the law tries very hard to keep the teacher certified and in the field, esp. if they haven't commited a 'crime' against any students

[sinner]

In 1984, Orwell says something about the youth being the most bigoted adherents of the Party's doctrine. He talks about frightened parents who won't dare speak out against the government even in their own homes for fear the children might hear and turn them in.

Since the beginning of the millenium, it seems like every couple of weeks I see some warning from that book in the national news. Just a thought.

[woody]

i like how they were showin on the news all the kids doing there walk-out

if high school times have continued throughout the years....

95% of those students don't give a fuck & just walked out to get out of class

[Seussninja]

but he DID commit a crime

and that crime is BEING A FUCKING TERRORIST COMMIE ASSHOLE HE SHOULD BURN

[zetec]

In 1984, Orwell says something about the youth being the most bigoted adherents of the Party's doctrine. He talks about frightened parents who won't dare speak out against the government even in their own homes for fear the children might hear and turn them in.

Since the beginning of the millenium, it seems like every couple of weeks I see some warning from that book in the national news. Just a thought.

love the avatar.








eggy weggz... i would like to... SMASH THEM

[pysex]

i don't know....this is iffy


besides....schools don't like it when teachers start getting off curriculum and start blabbing political crap like that...


yeah the U.S. is violent.....but so is the fucking world....why do you cry about some palestinian woman that stepped on a landmine (that was probably placed there by one of her own people) but not cry about a little girl that was murdered in your hometown...


i don't like what happens when U.S. is in foreign countries any more than you do....i just see it as being a necessary evil....

[FORSAKENR320]

i agree with him... U.S IS one of the most violent countries of all time, but only because we insist on playing big brother when everyone else can't play nice.

america's policy:: "we bomb so YOU don't have to"



i personally think that the problem isn't that we bomb too much...


WE DON'T BOMB ENOUGH


crater their world like the face of a sweaty kid going through puberty

[impala454]

I don't pay school taxes so the teacher can waste it forcing their political opinions on kids.

[JRockTTU]

I don't pay school taxes so the teacher can waste it forcing their political opinions on kids.

I'm glad you posted what I was thinking as I read the thread. It is a teacher's job to teach, not try to influence students into agreeing with their political views. You're a damn geography teacher, so show me where the USA is on a map and what the ranging elevation is, but don't tell me what you think about our government's decisions. I don't see how he can be easily defended if the school board says the policy is that if they give opinions like this they have to teach the other side as well. A clear violation of school policy right there.

[¿ÂÂ...]

"What are we protesting today...? Oh, well, sure! That is really really uncool! Let's cut class and make a statement!"

[impala454]

I'm glad you posted what I was thinking as I read the thread. It is a teacher's job to teach, not try to influence students into agreeing with their political views. You're a damn geography teacher, so show me where the USA is on a map and what the ranging elevation is, but don't tell me what you think about our government's decisions. I don't see how he can be easily defended if the school board says the policy is that if they give opinions like this they have to teach the other side as well. A clear violation of school policy right there.

haha i didnt' know it was a geography class... makes it even more pointless.

[pysex]

I'm glad you posted what I was thinking as I read the thread.  It is a teacher's job to teach, not try to influence students into agreeing with their political views.  You're a damn geography teacher, so show me where the USA is on a map and what the ranging elevation is, but don't tell me what you think about our government's decisions.  I don't see how he can be easily defended if the school board says the policy is that if they give opinions like this they have to teach the other side as well.  A clear violation of school policy right there.

oh shit geography teacher?



yeah he better be fired

[Spectatrix]

Social studies teacher in a geography class, to be precise.

[pysex]

Social studies teacher in a geography class, to be precise.

yeah well i remember debating about politics in my GOVERNMENT class.....not geography

[impala454]

even if it was a government class and you're debating politics, the teacher has to remain neutral and let the kids make up their own minds.

[Spectatrix]

even if it was a government class and you're debating politics, the teacher has to remain neutral and let the kids make up their own minds.

I disagree. I think that the teacher should be free to express his opinion, so long as he makes it clear (as he seemed to do here) that it's just his opinion and that them disagreeing with him will not affect their grades.

That having been said, I think this was an inappropriate discussion for a geography class.

[¿ÂÂ...]

even if it was a government class and you're debating politics, the teacher has to remain neutral and let the kids make up their own minds.

/set sarcasm "1"
I agree. I hate flavor, if i could have it my way i would have all my classes taught by an mono-toned, emotionless golem who merely presents the facts. He also would eat staples.
/set sarcasm "0"

[Jyan]

/set sarcasm "1"
I agree. I hate flavor, if i could have it my way i would have all my classes taught by an mono-toned, emotionless golem who merely presents the facts. He also would eat staples.
/set sarcasm "0"

I think it'd be awesome to have a teacher who ate staples. Then, if anyone did something wrong, he'd just spit a staple at them.

[Spectatrix]

I think it'd be awesome to have a teacher who ate staples. Then, if anyone did something wrong, he'd just spit a staple at them.

I like that setup in one epsiode of Futurama when Fry goes back to college... electrified seats! I also liked the chalk board that changed cursive into print.

[Jyan]

I like that setup in one epsiode of Futurama when Fry goes back to college... electrified seats! I also liked the chalk board that changed cursive into print.

Oh, I know this...LIGHTBRITE!

[impala454]

/set sarcasm "1"
I agree. I hate flavor, if i could have it my way i would have all my classes taught by an mono-toned, emotionless golem who merely presents the facts. He also would eat staples.
/set sarcasm "0"

What exactly would you learn in school from a teacher who said what that teacher did?

If you have to badmouth politicians to keep from being a "mono-toned, emotionless golem who merely presents the facts" then you're a terrible teacher and a waste of my tax dollars.

[basschick]

What exactly would you learn in school from a teacher who said what that teacher did?

If you have to badmouth politicians to keep from being a "mono-toned, emotionless golem who merely presents the facts" then you're a terrible teacher and a waste of my tax dollars.

yes, that's true chuck

teacher's have to have passion, i know it's hard for me to teach w/o giving my opinions on the subject, but then again, in theory aren't they there to learn at least some of your opinions? Such as, I really strongly support the use of a certain type of stats in psyc (because psyc is a science), so I'm going to push those on people, and not necessarily cover the things I think aren't important or are "bad".

It should stay in topic though :\

[GOB]

why do you cry about some palestinian woman that stepped on a landmine (that was probably placed there by one of her own people) but not cry about a little girl that was murdered in your hometown...

i totally agree. david cross says it best:

listen to me




(it should play for like 2:48)

[JRockTTU]

yes, that's true chuck

teacher's have to have passion, i know it's hard for me to teach w/o giving my opinions on the subject, but then again, in theory aren't they there to learn at least some of your opinions? Such as, I really strongly support the use of a certain type of stats in psyc (because psyc is a science), so I'm going to push those on people, and not necessarily cover the things I think aren't important or are "bad".

It should stay in topic though :\

It's completely different in college and high school. In college I had plenty of professors give personal opinions on several subjects, but I expected it out of them and felt like I was old enough and mature enough to make up my own mind. Plus, I'm paying for the education and if I don't like it, I can drop the class or go to a different school. In high school and younger then the kids are more impressionable and they are forced to take specific classes with specific teachers, atleast we were when I was in school. And every one of us that pay taxes pay that teacher's salary through property tax.

[JRockTTU]

And BTW, I fucking LOVE David Cross's standup CD's, I listen to them all the damn time. I didn't click the link, but I love when he goes through the whole line of eating at the restaurant that serves gold sheets on desserts.

[basschick]

It's completely different in college and high school. In college I had plenty of professors give personal opinions on several subjects, but I expected it out of them and felt like I was old enough and mature enough to make up my own mind. Plus, I'm paying for the education and if I don't like it, I can drop the class or go to a different school. In high school and younger then the kids are more impressionable and they are forced to take specific classes with specific teachers, atleast we were when I was in school. And every one of us that pay taxes pay that teacher's salary through property tax.

you know i thought about adding it
but i was lazy

[GOB]

I love when he goes through the whole line of eating at the restaurant that serves gold sheets on desserts.

the ultimate "fuck you" to poor people


that's pretty much one of the best tracks on any of his cds

[Spectatrix]

And every one of us that pay taxes pay that teacher's salary through property tax.

... and every one of us that pay taxes pay public college teachers' salaries through property taxes TOO.

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: Mar 8 2006, 11:31 PM

[GOB]

... and every one of us that pay taxes pay public college teachers' salaries through property taxes TOO.

college students aren't as impressionable as little kids. things my parents told me last week don't have as much impact as what they told me when i was 10.

[basschick]

... and every one of us that pay taxes pay public college teachers' salaries through property taxes TOO.

thank you?

[JRockTTU]

... and every one of us that pay taxes pay public college teachers' salaries through property taxes TOO.

I looked at the appraisal value on my house and it shows annual taxes to City of Lubbock, Lubbock County, Lubbock County Hospitals, Lubbock ISD, and Hi Plains Water. Do the professors get paid from my City or County taxes or what?

3. What does my tuition actually pay for?
Your tuition pays for everything that happens at the university, from salary for professors to keeping electricity in the buildings. Although you can’t see these costs itemized on a bill, they are an indispensable part of running a university in order to offer students an accessible, quality higher education.

http://www.orgs.ttu.edu/opportunity/faq.asp

This has a small breakdown of property taxes and I don't see anything about taxes going to the universities here http://community.txed.state.tx.us/communit...mmpages/148.htm

[Junsui]

college students aren't as impressionable as little kids. things my parents told me last week don't have as much impact as what they told me when i was 10.

Thank you?

[Spectatrix]

I looked at the appraisal value on my house and it shows annual taxes to City of Lubbock, Lubbock County, Lubbock County Hospitals, Lubbock ISD, and Hi Plains Water. Do the professors get paid from my City or County taxes or what?



http://www.orgs.ttu.edu/opportunity/faq.asp

This has a small breakdown of property taxes and I don't see anything about taxes going to the universities here http://community.txed.state.tx.us/communit...mmpages/148.htm

It may not be property taxes, though it some states I believe it is. However, public universities are "public" because they are supported by state tax funds. Approximately half of the real tuition rate is payed by taxes... the other half is paid by the student (or scholarships or financial aid or whatever). This is why private schools are more expensive (student pays the full tuition) and why out-of-state students (not historically Texas tax-payers) have higher tuition rates than residents.

[woody]

fuck

hmm...

fuck who pays their salaries

college professors (dunno about CC's & JUCO) are professionals in their field.

high school teachers have a bachelors (sometimes a masters)

that's the difference

This post has been edited by woody: Mar 9 2006, 01:38 AM

[JRockTTU]

It may not be property taxes, though it some states I believe it is. However, public universities are "public" because they are supported by state tax funds. Approximately half of the real tuition rate is payed by taxes... the other half is paid by the student (or scholarships or financial aid or whatever). This is why private schools are more expensive (student pays the full tuition) and why out-of-state students (not historically Texas tax-payers) have higher tuition rates than residents.

If I were to guess, I'd assume that State Income taxes, or in our case state sales tax, and federal income taxes pay the salaries, since to my understanding the public colleges are funded by the federal and state governments. But the bigger point still is the choice. College students pay to go to that school and have that teacher and still pay a large portion of the teacher's salary through tuition. Not only that, but legally, high school students have to be there, until they can legally drop out anyway.

[Spectatrix]

Whether what he said was appropriate or not, I'll be interested to see how this case pans out.

Personally, I'm all for getting HS students to think about controversial issues, so long as the issues are not presented as definite fact. I think government classes (this wasn't one, I know) should debate about politics, though perhaps it's most appropriate for the teacher to say "some people think this... what do you guys think about that?" rather than claiming something as his own view. I think biology classes should talk about the controversies over evolution, though I think talking about creationism/ID in any great depth would be more theological in nature and thus not appropriate for biology.

[impala454]

yes, that's true chuck

teacher's have to have passion, i know it's hard for me to teach w/o giving my opinions on the subject, but then again, in theory aren't they there to learn at least some of your opinions? Such as, I really strongly support the use of a certain type of stats in psyc (because psyc is a science), so I'm going to push those on people, and not necessarily cover the things I think aren't important or are "bad".

It should stay in topic though :\

yeah profs def have their opinion on the topics in their lecture. i know most of the cs department profs are big linux freaks and it shows in their classes.

i'm not thinkin this particular teacher was too on topic though. "what's the capital of rhode island? oh and by the way when george bush sounds a lot like hitler".

[pebkac]

I'm glad you posted what I was thinking as I read the thread. It is a teacher's job to teach, not try to influence students into agreeing with their political views. You're a damn geography teacher, so show me where the USA is on a map and what the ranging elevation is, but don't tell me what you think about our government's decisions. I don't see how he can be easily defended if the school board says the policy is that if they give opinions like this they have to teach the other side as well. A clear violation of school policy right there.

So because the teacher gives one lecture where he assaults Bush, that means he automatically isn't doing his job as a teacher? Did you spend every day in high school learning wonderfully useful knowledge? Have you never been in a class that devolves into a debate about current events that wasn't government? Because I know pretty much every class I had in high school ended up doing that at least once.

Now, also consider that:

1) The teacher stated that this was just his point of view and that students didn't have to agree with him.

and

2) The teacher provided students with a chance to provide their own input.

Lastly, nobody who's been through college should make the argument that geography teachers should only teach geograpy. Didn't your psych professor delve into sociology a bit? Didn't your Poli Sci professor delve into economics a bit? Didn't everyone teach at least a little bit of philosophy? The fact is that subjects are intertwined, especially geography and government, because half of geography is looking at the cultures and political systems that are in place in local areas.

[impala454]

i took world religions in college and that professor was very good it presenting an interesting class, teaching the material, and never putting his own opinion out on display. he let the students do the debating, which is how it should be.

[pebkac]

i took world religions in college and that professor was very good it presenting an interesting class, teaching the material, and never putting his own opinion out on display.  he let the students do the debating, which is how it should be.

Yes, I agree that it's preferable for a teacher not to give their own opinions. Now on the other hand, it's also sometimes neccessary for the teacher to do this to stimulate conversation, or to play "devil's advocate" when students are missing a very important piece of the discussion.

EDIT: Whether or not that was what this teacher was trying to do, I can't say. It's difficult to tell with the couple of soundbites in the article.

This post has been edited by pebkac: Mar 9 2006, 03:16 PM

[JRockTTU]

So because the teacher gives one lecture where he assaults Bush, that means he automatically isn't doing his job as a teacher? Did you spend every day in high school learning wonderfully useful knowledge? Have you never been in a class that devolves into a debate about current events that wasn't government? Because I know pretty much every class I had in high school ended up doing that at least once.

Now, also consider that:

1) The teacher stated that this was just his point of view and that students didn't have to agree with him.

and

2) The teacher provided students with a chance to provide their own input.

Lastly, nobody who's been through college should make the argument that geography teachers should only teach geograpy. Didn't your psych professor delve into sociology a bit? Didn't your Poli Sci professor delve into economics a bit? Didn't everyone teach at least a little bit of philosophy? The fact is that subjects are intertwined, especially geography and government, because half of geography is looking at the cultures and political systems that are in place in local areas.

It was more than one lecture:

But Allen found himself at the vortex of the debate Thursday — alternately reviled and hailed, unsure of whether to return to school, talking nonstop to reporters and talk show hosts.

He called it "probably one of the longer days of my life." Some people called him a "snitch" while others told him he "did the right thing." He said he made the recording because he grew tired of Bennish's lectures.

"It happened pretty much daily," he said.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/educ...4508688,00.html

[pebkac]

It was more than one lecture:



http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/educ...4508688,00.html

If it truly was something that happened on a daily basis and it was interfering with his teaching, I would agree that the teacher should be disciplined and/or fired.

[Throwdown]

if the teacher was criticizing liberals, would you guys be mad?

[Seussninja]

if the teacher was criticizing liberals, would you guys be mad?

Probably not because as long as he loves america its ok

[Spectatrix]

if the teacher was criticizing liberals, would you guys be mad?

Yes....

[Junsui]

So because the teacher gives one lecture where he assaults Bush, that means he automatically isn't doing his job as a teacher? Did you spend every day in high school learning wonderfully useful knowledge? Have you never been in a class that devolves into a debate about current events that wasn't government? Because I know pretty much every class I had in high school ended up doing that at least once.

In my high school we didn't really have debates. My government/economics teacher taught pretty much by the book. He always used to tell us we had to listen to lectures and take notes because it wasn't in the book and of course everything he said was right out of the book. All of my other classes stuck to their topics.

[JRockTTU]

[Throwdown]

[FORSAKENR320]

i don't know about ya'll, but i learned more than book material from my classes.

specifically how to think about issues and debate over them to come to my own conclusion.

that ability isn't offered in a specific class, in fact i kinda feel that schooling all the way up till graduation was more "mindless droning" the equivelent of teaching a parrot. and when he squawks the right answer on a test, giving him a cracker. that parrot doesn't know what the hell the real meaning of his answer is, he just knows to mindlessly tell the teacher what they want to hear.


getting out of that rut requires igniting some sort of passion in the students, so that they will actually learn to think and question on their own. so what if you get off topic? i believe his class discussion fell into a tangent where he thought it possible to ignite a few fires of thought, and he took it. to me that at least shows a teacher willing to put more effort into it than the bland textbook teacher out there only earning a paycheck.

[woody]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/loca...4537621,00.html

and he's back..

quote from student:

"I thought he made it clear that he wasn’t saying Bush and Hitler were the same person, but I think some students might have got the wrong impression."

What, did some students get the impression that Bush was the incarnate of Hitler or something?

[GOB]

overland high school is a ghetto piece of shit