Living Wage OK'd in Chicago Options

[Hartmann]

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2006/07/26/3...oks-living-wage

Will be a good case study on whether or not the minimum wage should be raised.

[Psykopath]

WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!


J/K


Yeah, this is a big step in helping out the lower class. Should be very interesting indeed to see how this plays out.
Yay microeconomic experiments!

[chook]

it said their average pay is 11 an hour, probably shifted by the manager's wage.

[Mommy]

WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!


J/K


Yeah, this is a big step in helping out the lower class. Should be very interesting indeed to see how this plays out.
Yay microeconomic experiments!

i dont know if it will help or hinder the lower class. im thinking it might make it harder for them to find work. the federal minimum wage needs to be raised to 8 bucks an hour. that would help the lower class in the shortrun, but probably in the end cause inflation. lets face the facts, our country has long since ingnored the needs ot the lower class and has permanently fucked them

[prefix]

Man fuck wal-mart. Anytime something happens that makes their profit of billions of dollars go down they just move the stores. There was one store in New York I think it was where they tried to start a union, so they demolished that wal-mart and put up another one across the street(since they can't legally fire people for starting a union).

Oh no our billions of dollars in profit might still be billions just not as many, boooooooohoooooooooo.

[Mommy]

it wont only be walmart that is going to bitch about this though. car companies will also move

[Billy]

Man fuck wal-mart. Anytime something happens that makes their profit of billions of dollars go down they just move the stores. There was one store in New York I think it was where they tried to start a union, so they demolished that wal-mart and put up another one across the street(since they can't legally fire people for starting a union).

Oh no our billions of dollars in profit might still be billions just not as many, boooooooohoooooooooo.

Unions now a days hurt the working class more than they help.

I'll elaborate later.

[dauss]

it wont only be walmart that is going to bitch about this though. car companies will also move

which ones did you have in mind?

lets face the facts, our country has long since ingnored the needs of the middle class and has permanently fucked them

fixed

I got my first pay stub last week, and almost 25% was gone. Federal tax, social security tax, medicare tax, and state tax. Here's the thing, poor people don't pay taxes, because they don't make enough money. All those tax cuts that Congress passes, especially that $70 billion dollar one in May, benefits the wealthy. I was complaining about the taxes to my dad, and he said that there's a cap on how much medicare and SS tax they can steal. If I remember correctly, they can tax up to $108,000. So anything over that, medicare and SS can't have.

[chook]

As for the car companies, I think they all pay better than 8/hr in the US for manufacturing.

David you are right. The poor are ignored, the middle class fucked.

[dauss]

Plus the poor fucked themselves.
Maybe they dropped out of school, and have too poor an education to get a decent job.
Maybe they had a criminial record that prevented them from getting a decent job.
Maybe they had a criminal record and their ass is in prison, sucking off the taxpayer money, while abandoning their single female headed household.
Maybe they had an subtance abuse problem that prevented them from getting a decent job.
Maybe they fucked themselves with credit cards by buying wrecklessly and prevented them from getting a decent job.
Maybe they had a baby and decided to keep it instead aborting it and now the mom works the graveyard shift and Wendy's instead of going to school, and getting a decent education to get a decent job.
Maybe they have a mental illness, and they're leeches on society, and that prevented them from getting a decent job.
Maybe they decided to go to war to help out their country and when they came back, their head was all fucked up, left with no skills, never went back to school, and the government abandoned them, maybe that prevented them from getting a decent job, and I'm talking about a huge percentage of the homeless, who are veterans.
Maybe they don't know how to save shit and live paycheck to paycheck and hopes that their precious social security will bail them out later.

Sure there are other causes and reasons, but what I've listed covers a majority.

[woody]

dunno if i like the idea

It would only apply to companies with more than $1 billion in annual sales and stores of at least 90,000 square feet.

basically says if you have the money you must pay your employees more.

kinda fucks over those who don't work for acompany that big

if i were walmart, i'd down size the building to 89, 500 sq. ft

[M1N10N]

If I remember correctly, they can tax up to $108,000. So anything over that, medicare and SS can't have.

Not like they would ever see the money they put in returned back to them, there is a cap on SS pay out ... or are we going full socialism?


How did they get the $10? How is living wage calculated? I would not think $10 in Chicago would be that much. Anyone got the BMI of chicago?

[impala454]

Plus the poor fucked themselves.
Maybe they dropped out of school, and have too poor an education to get a decent job.
Maybe they had a criminial record that prevented them from getting a decent job.
Maybe they had a criminal record and their ass is in prison, sucking off the taxpayer money, while abandoning their single female headed household.
Maybe they had an subtance abuse problem that prevented them from getting a decent job.
Maybe they fucked themselves with credit cards by buying wrecklessly and prevented them from getting a decent job.
Maybe they had a baby and decided to keep it instead aborting it and now the mom works the graveyard shift and Wendy's instead of going to school, and getting a decent education to get a decent job.
Maybe they have a mental illness, and they're leeches on society, and that prevented them from getting a decent job.
Maybe they decided to go to war to help out their country and when they came back, their head was all fucked up, left with no skills, never went back to school, and the government abandoned them, maybe that prevented them from getting a decent job, and I'm talking about a huge percentage of the homeless, who are veterans.
Maybe they don't know how to save shit and live paycheck to paycheck and hopes that their precious social security will bail them out later.

Sure there are other causes and reasons, but what I've listed covers a majority.

bingo

and these are the people having the most kids (perpetuating the problem pretty much beyond the ability to solve).

[Spectatrix]

Well they got some of their facts wrong. Albuquerque doesn't have a living wage. They tried to pass one last October, but it narrowly failed.

[Mommy]

bingo

and these are the people having the most kids (perpetuating the problem pretty much beyond the ability to solve).

you two do realize that anyone that makes less than 26,000 a year is considered to be below the national poverty line....or some number close to that. Im considered below the national poverty line. Ive never once touched a drug, not even marijuana.

The poor are fucked because if they dont have the money to go to college, they will be stuck in a low paying job for a good 10 years of their life. The government refuses to increase the minimum wage. It hasnt been raised in something like 10+ years. Thats fucking ridiculous with what gas prices are these days. If someone owns a dodge neon (for example) and fills up their car with gas (about $31) and works an 8 hour day at 6 bucks an hour... you do the math. Thats almost a whole day's wage gone.

The middle class is fucked because they dont get tax breaks as someone said before. I just so happen to recall most middle class families receiving a check from the govt about 5 years ago because of the Bush administration's middle class tax break, but whatever. Yes, they are screwed too.

The upper class is stricken with tax rates of 40% of their income. Most earn there money and shouldnt half to give almost have to the fucking government. "But they are rich"...doesnt matter. Its not fair.

Additionally, there is no incentive in starting small businesses anymore because they will tax you for everything under the sun. Entrepreneurship has gone completely out of the window.

You want to know whats really unfair? The fact that the UNITED fucking NATIONS now wants to impose a tax of their own on US citizens. Where do we draw the line? I mean, the US doesnt even have much dealing with the UN anymore. In fact, the UN often chastises the US for her global pollution, death penalty laws, and other issues. So, not only are we looking at a city tax, a county tax, a state tax (which is our sales tax here in texas I believe, but thats not the case in other states), and a federal tax but now we could be possibly charged a global tax.... http://www.freedomandprosperity.org/Papers...t/un-report.PDF

And you people want to say that the only people that are poor are those who are drug addicts or are too dumb to go to school. Our government fucks over every tax bracket. Dont mark the middle class as "special" because they have the higher tax rates with no incentives. A woman my age can get pregnant out of wedlock, be labeled as a slut and a worthless scum of society all because she made one mistake, and make $5.15 an hour for putting in hard work and not be able to buy diapers for her kid after she pays rent and bills. I'm sorry, but there is just something wrong with that.

This post has been edited by Jessica: Jul 27 2006, 05:28 PM

[chook]

State Tax is a land tax in our state. Most rich people have ways of avoiding the 40% of their income being taxed by loopholes. It is hard to move out of your income tier in the US, but we still have the dream.

[Spectatrix]

you two do realize that anyone that makes less than 26,000 a year is considered to be below the national poverty line....or some number close to that. Im considered below the national poverty line. Ive never once touched a drug, not even marijuana.

That's a little lower than the poverty level for a family of 6, actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_line_..._and_guidelines

[prefix]

And these are the people having the most kids (perpetuating the problem pretty much beyond the ability to solve).

Yet another unproven impala fact.

The upper class is stricken with tax rates of 40% of their income. Most earn there money and shouldnt half to give almost have to the fucking government. "But they are rich"...doesnt matter. Its not fair.

Yes, let's all drive our porsches while people are being left hungry. While I do agree that the middle class is taxed too much you can't tell me that it's honestly sad to see people like Kenneth Lay, Bill Gates, the Waltons, and other multi millionares/billionares getting taxed their 40%. My dad gets taxed as much as these people, that sucks ass.

[Mommy]

That's a little lower than the poverty level for a family of 6, actually.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_line_..._and_guidelines

regardless, an individual who makes 5.15 an hour and works 40 hours a week makes $10,712/yr (if my math is wrong, please dont correct me. its late and im tired and that close enough) and thats not shit. If that isnt poverty, I dont know what is. My dad makes that in a month and my family struggles to get by because of my brother's high medical bills. Additionally, I dont know anyone who could live on those wages.

and in response to prefix, my point wasnt to go on about how rich people shouldnt be taxed more, but rather to show that the government buttfucks them too

[woody]

also if you live below the poverty line you usually qualify for food stamps, medicare, etc.

so that knocks down some expenses.

they should just give a rate of infaltion tax break for those below the poverty line

[M1N10N]

Yes, let's all drive our porsches while people are being left hungry. While I do agree that the middle class is taxed too much you can't tell me that it's honestly sad to see people like Kenneth Lay, Bill Gates, the Waltons, and other multi millionares/billionares getting taxed their 40%. My dad gets taxed as much as these people, that sucks ass.

Everyone is equal arent they?

[impala454]

Yet another unproven impala fact.

uh ok... didn't realize I needed to post some web page to get people to believe that poor people tend to have a shitload of kids.

[impala454]

Yes, let's all drive our porsches while people are being left hungry. While I do agree that the middle class is taxed too much you can't tell me that it's honestly sad to see people like Kenneth Lay, Bill Gates, the Waltons, and other multi millionares/billionares getting taxed their 40%. My dad gets taxed as much as these people, that sucks ass.

so while you're asking me for proof where's your proof of this? lets see these people's personal tax records

[impala454]

bottom line here people is with all the welfare, food stamps, WIC, practically insane amounts of govt college grants & loans, and any other program out there designed to give poor people a break, what possible incentive is there for them to try to get out of poverty??

I'll go toe to toe with any dipshit in here that tries to claim poor people can't go to college. the insane amount of grants & loans available allow anybody who wants to go to go.

What will raising the minimum wage do? It'll teach poor people that they don't need to work harder or try to get an education, they get something for nothing. It'll put a strain on companies large & small, which can't possibly help the economy. You raise it from $5.15 to $7, all that does is give some dude an extra set of rims & another subwoofer per year.

And Jessica, that's fucking stupid to compare yourself to the poverty line, you're a damn college student. I'm sure the 15 year olds sacking groceries while in high school are below the poverty line too. In fact I'd be surprised if you could find many college students that make more than $26k a year.

[Spectatrix]

regardless, an individual who makes 5.15 an hour and works 40 hours a week makes $10,712/yr (if my math is wrong, please dont correct me. its late and im tired and that close enough) and thats not shit. If that isnt poverty, I dont know what is. My dad makes that in a month and my family struggles to get by because of my brother's high medical bills. Additionally, I dont know anyone who could live on those wages.

Your math was right.

Poverty for an individual is defined as $9,800/yr. Yeah, that sucks, but it's still possible to live on those wages. You wouldn't be able to afford a car unless you were just doing liability insurance on it, but it's not impossible. You get an efficiency apartment, buy cheap groceries, don't go out to eat, and watch your utility usage.

Besides, what a lot of people seem to fail to realize is that the minimum wage isn't one that people are expected to live on long-term. Regardless of your education, if you learn from your jobs you can gain skills that make you more valuable, either to your current company or another one. Any random crew member at McDonald's can work their way up to being a shift manager, assistant manager, head manager eventually if they work hard, pay attention, and take the initiative to ask for raises and consideration for management.

In any case, this Chicago thing should be an interesting experiment. I'll be interested to see how this plays out.

[woody]

Any random crew member at McDonald's can work their way up to being a shift manager, assistant manager, head manager eventually if they work hard, pay attention, and take the initiative to ask for raises and consideration for management.

"Oh yeah, I started out mopping the floor just like you guys. Then I moved up to washing lettuces. Now, I'm working the fat fryer. Pretty soon I'll make assistant manager, and that's when the big bucks start rolling in. "

[Spectatrix]

You think it doesn't happen? Fast food companies often promote internally rather than hiring managers from the outside. My step-brother worked for McDonald's for a couple of years and I believe he was a shift manager before he even finished high school. He would've been promoted to assistant manager except that he was leaving to attend Tech.

[woody]

.....it's a quote from Coming to America...Louis Anderson is talking about working at McDowell's

[Spectatrix]

.....it's a quote from Coming to America...Louis Anderson is talking about working at McDowell's

Ah, whoops. lol...

[Mommy]

bottom line here people is with all the welfare, food stamps, WIC, practically insane amounts of govt college grants & loans, and any other program out there designed to give poor people a break, what possible incentive is there for them to try to get out of poverty??

I'll go toe to toe with any dipshit in here that tries to claim poor people can't go to college. the insane amount of grants & loans available allow anybody who wants to go to go.

What will raising the minimum wage do? It'll teach poor people that they don't need to work harder or try to get an education, they get something for nothing. It'll put a strain on companies large & small, which can't possibly help the economy. You raise it from $5.15 to $7, all that does is give some dude an extra set of rims & another subwoofer per year.

And Jessica, that's fucking stupid to compare yourself to the poverty line, you're a damn college student. I'm sure the 15 year olds sacking groceries while in high school are below the poverty line too. In fact I'd be surprised if you could find many college students that make more than $26k a year.

im not in college, dumbass. i already graduated and work full time.

[GOB]

In fact I'd be surprised if you could find many philosophy undergrad majors that make more than $26k a year.

fixed

[Testm0nkey]

bottom line here people is with all the welfare, food stamps, WIC, practically insane amounts of govt college grants & loans, and any other program out there designed to give poor people a break, what possible incentive is there for them to try to get out of poverty??

I'll go toe to toe with any dipshit in here that tries to claim poor people can't go to college. the insane amount of grants & loans available allow anybody who wants to go to go.

What will raising the minimum wage do? It'll teach poor people that they don't need to work harder or try to get an education, they get something for nothing. It'll put a strain on companies large & small, which can't possibly help the economy. You raise it from $5.15 to $7, all that does is give some dude an extra set of rims & another subwoofer per year.

And Jessica, that's fucking stupid to compare yourself to the poverty line, you're a damn college student. I'm sure the 15 year olds sacking groceries while in high school are below the poverty line too. In fact I'd be surprised if you could find many college students that make more than $26k a year.

that is ridiculous

[Spectatrix]

Would you mind elaborating, Cathryn?

[Mommy]

fixed

hardy har har. i have a job lined up that pays 36k+ a year, but when you move somewhere and dont have a job and have to take the first thing that comes available to get by at first, thats what happens. ive said it a million times, a bachelors degree is a bachelors degree is a bachelors degree unless you get it in nursing or engineering. doesnt matter what the degree is in, they all look the same on a resume.

[woody]

fixed

< Philosophy grad making more than 30K/yr

[Mommy]

< Philosophy grad making more than 30K/yr

haha oh yeah, i forgot you were philosophy



additionally, philosophy majors have a good chance of being accepted to law school

[Mommy]

Poverty for an individual is defined as $9,800/yr. Yeah, that sucks, but it's still possible to live on those wages. You wouldn't be able to afford a car unless you were just doing liability insurance on it, but it's not impossible. You get an efficiency apartment, buy cheap groceries, don't go out to eat, and watch your utility usage.

let me lay out some math here that i think is reasonable.

minimum wage equals out to $10,712 a year without any deductings or ss being taken out

lets say rent is $250/mo for an efficiency....thats $3k/yr

water is $20/mo so $240/yr

electricity at $80/mo is $960 which is a light estimate because i hardly ever use AC and mine is $106/mo

to eat healthy, my estimate is $30/wk for food so thats $1440/yr

laundry for 2 loads a week would be $192/yr

clothes we will say $60 every 2 months... $360/yr

transportation... i dont know what a bus pass costs these days, but we will just say $200/yr

extra odds and ends like cleaning supplies and shampoo etc we will alot $200/yr for

total so far $6592

now, my guess the actual take home on minimum wage is closer to about $9,00.

So here is what we have left over $2408.

Health insurance is a must these days. Most minimum wage jobs offer more expensive health care so they are looking at about $60/2 wks of deductions. Thats $1440/yr. What about co-payments and prescriptions. If they go to the doctors 4/yr and the co-pay is $25 and they need a $20 prescription each time thats an additional $180/yr.

Now, we have $788 left over which seems like a lot, but is not for an entire year of work. If a person were to get cable, almost half of that would be gone.


in other words, yeah, its livable but only for the absolute bare minimum...they wont be able to buy birthday or christmas gifts, get internet, have a car, pay tithe if they go to church, give to charities, or buy something like a vacuum cleaner, much less have a savings because lets face it, that $788 will go to some type of necessity whether it be stamps, a cell phone bill, or something else. Ummm what kind of life is that? Has anyone here ever worked at a fast food restaraunt? it fucking sucks. Its pretty hard work, like always moving and always hustling. I dont know many of people like you and me that could do it because its frustrating work. You smell all the time and get sweaty. So are we saying that just because you dont have to have any prior skills it shouldnt pay much. I can think of several jobs that any joe could do that pay a lot better. But no, people like impala say that only potheads and junkies work those places. No, people who desperately need a job work there too.

[moebary]

clothes we will say $60 every 2 months... $360/yr

it's $60 a year if it's a male, i spend about that much on clothes a year

and some of those others are a little high if your living off minimum wage, like food and probably electricity since they couldn't afford a tv, computer, washing machine, etc

This post has been edited by moebary: Jul 29 2006, 12:30 PM

[FORSAKENR320]

in other words, yeah, its livable but only for the absolute bare minimum

thats why it's called the poverty level






no, not all people making minimum wage are potheads, but each and every person has made choices through their life that have landed themselves in that situation.


life sucks, get a fucking helmet

[moebary]

life sucks, get a fucking helmet

exactly

[Mommy]

it's $60 a year if it's a male, i spend about that much on clothes a year

and some of those others are a little high if your living off minimum wage, like food and probably electricity since they couldn't afford a tv, computer, washing machine, etc

i dont have tv or a washing machine


and $60/yr? What about socks, shoes, underwear, work clothes, etc????

[Jim]

i dont have tv or a washing machine


and $60/yr? What about socks, shoes, underwear, work clothes, etc????

If you're not making much money, you can wear the same underwear/socks/what have you for years.

Shoes and work clothes vary. If you're working at McDonald's I'm pretty sure you don't have to buy new work clothes monthly. And when I was there I kept the same shoes for over one and a half years.

[Spectatrix]

i dont have tv or a washing machine


and $60/yr? What about socks, shoes, underwear, work clothes, etc????

I do have to admit that your electricity estimate is high. Jim and I have a TV, DVD player, 2 computers that are on most of the time, AC... and our electricity usually runs between $60 and $80.

Oh, and I haven't spent even $100 in the last year on clothes, even considering that I bought a $40 pants suit last weekend. I haven't bought new socks in years, new underwear only every couple of years, shoes last me at least two years...

[Mommy]

I do have to admit that your electricity estimate is high.  Jim and I have a TV, DVD player, 2 computers that are on most of the time, AC... and our electricity usually runs between $60 and $80.

Oh, and I haven't spent even $100 in the last year on clothes, even considering that I bought a $40 pants suit last weekend.  I haven't bought new socks in years, new underwear only every couple of years, shoes last me at least two years...

I havent bought new shoes in 3 years. I have 4 pairs of shoes total. I did have to buy work clothes and that cost some money. I dont buy expensive stuff either. Pants usually cost like $15 and shirts about $12. I have to dress business professional everyday though so I had to pretty much buy a new wardrobe. For someone working at mcdonalds, though, I guess they wont need that much. Problem is, they dont need to look like a damn bum either so thats why I said $60 every 2 months. Thats only $30/ mo. I think thats pretty reasonable. Thats a pair of jeans and a shirt a month.

As for the electricity thing, I live in Austin. I have been told our electricity is higher priced here. I never have the lights on, I dont have a washer or dryer, and I dont have cable so my tv is never on. Additionally, I hardly ever cook. My thermostat for my AC is usually set to 80 degrees. My bills have been $106 and some change for the past two months in a row.

This post has been edited by Jessica: Jul 30 2006, 05:40 PM

[Dogmeat]

christ my electric bill in lubbock is usually $100 a month, but keep my thermostat set on 72-73 degrees ....

[Mommy]

christ my electric bill in lubbock is usually $100 a month, but keep my thermostat set on 72-73 degrees ....

i have a feeling something is wrong here. i dont know


the water in my apt and only my apt smells like satan's asshole.

[GOB]

the water in my apt and only my apt smells like satan's asshole.

my old apartment did that, but it was in lubbock.


it was mostly just when i first turned on the water.

[pysex]

our thermostat is set at 78 and our electric bill runs $140 - $170

[Spectatrix]

i have a feeling something is wrong here. i dont know


the water in my apt and only my apt smells like satan's asshole.

Might have 'em check the AC filters. The ones in my step-bro's apartment got clogged up (they'd accidentally put in anti-allergy ones, which get dirty more quickly) and it just about doubled their electricity bill.

[Jim]

I havent bought new shoes in 3 years. I have 4 pairs of shoes total. I did have to buy work clothes and that cost some money. I dont buy expensive stuff either. Pants usually cost like $15 and shirts about $12. I have to dress business professional everyday though so I had to pretty much buy a new wardrobe. For someone working at mcdonalds, though, I guess they wont need that much. Problem is, they dont need to look like a damn bum either so thats why I said $60 every 2 months. Thats only $30/ mo. I think thats pretty reasonable. Thats a pair of jeans and a shirt a month.

As for the electricity thing, I live in Austin. I have been told our electricity is higher priced here. I never have the lights on, I dont have a washer or dryer, and I dont have cable so my tv is never on. Additionally, I hardly ever cook. My thermostat for my AC is usually set to 80 degrees. My bills have been $106 and some change for the past two months in a row.

So, you're saying not wearing new clothes means your a bum? And this matters to impoverished people why?

[Mommy]

So, you're saying not wearing new clothes means your a bum? And this matters to impoverished people why?

no, im saying that they should be able to dress nice if they want to. Im currently wearing a pair of jeans from the 9th grade.... my point was that $60 every 2 months isnt an unreasonable amount to spend on clothes. Quit being dumb and over analyzing the clothes thing. fine, you can substitute the clothes money for some other specialty like getting the newspaper which is 12.50 a month and having a few drinks here and there.

the general point of all this is that people say they are "no brainer" jobs, but in all actuality its the manual labor and service jobs that pay like shit...you know, the jobs that keep our society running and allow us to be able to have fast meals at places like mcdonalds.

[Jim]

You don't have to buy a newspaper to read it. You can read it for free at many places you work (I read the paper everyday when I worked at McD's).

There are plenty of free entertainment venues out there if someone is willing to look for it. Hell, the library rents out movies even.


Also, dumbasses can easily get promoted to management positions in McDonald's. It doesn't take much to move up there.

[Mommy]

You don't have to buy a newspaper to read it. You can read it for free at many places you work (I read the paper everyday when I worked at McD's).

There are plenty of free entertainment venues out there if someone is willing to look for it. Hell, the library rents out movies even.


Also, dumbasses can easily get promoted to management positions in McDonald's. It doesn't take much to move up there.

Explain how it is fair that prices on everything (gas, stamps, food, clothes, etc) has gone up but not minimum wage. When $5.15 was put into affect the cost of living was significantly lower than it is now.

You are looking at this all wrong. You suspect that every person that works at mcdonalds will get promoted to management. Not true. I worked with lower income kids with mental handicaps and I myself also have a sibling with a mental handicap. They usually get hired at fast food restaurants and are damn good workers, but lack the social skills or the complex thinking skills to move into management. Soon, the cost of living will be so high that there will be no point in them even working. They wont be able to get by.

[Spectatrix]

You're right in that regard, Jessica. The minimum wage should be increased according to inflation at least... by that measure, it should be about $6.75/hr now.

[pebkac]

You're right in that regard, Jessica. The minimum wage should be increased according to inflation at least... by that measure, it should be about $6.75/hr now.

Not to mention that the average worker makes less than the minimum wage 30 years ago when you adjust for inflation.

[woody]

I do have to admit that your electricity estimate is high. Jim and I have a TV, DVD player, 2 computers that are on most of the time, AC... and our electricity usually runs between $60 and $80.

Oh, and I haven't spent even $100 in the last year on clothes, even considering that I bought a $40 pants suit last weekend. I haven't bought new socks in years, new underwear only every couple of years, shoes last me at least two years...

depends on the area

i pay no less than 120/mo in electricity

[woody]

You don't have to buy a newspaper to read it. You can read it for free at many places you work (I read the paper everyday when I worked at McD's).

There are plenty of free entertainment venues out there if someone is willing to look for it. Hell, the library rents out movies even.


Also, dumbasses can easily get promoted to management positions in McDonald's. It doesn't take much to move up there.

she spends $60 on tampons, pads, and birth control pills recommended by her doctor for excessive cramps during her menstal cycle...


better?

[Jim]

she spends $60 on tampons, pads, and birth control pills recommended by her doctor for excessive cramps during her menstal cycle...


better?

And she has a doctor because?

I don't think we're quite understanding poverty here.


Yes, it sucks for them. However, it's still liveable.

[FORSAKENR320]

it doesn't seem like too many people on here know exactly what poverty means, do they jim? but, they sure are gonna argue like they know first hand what being poor is like.



internet lol

[woody]

I don't think we're quite understanding poverty here.


Yes, it sucks for them. However, it's still liveable.

anything is livable

look at those fucks on the infomercials in africa with flys crawling on their eyeballs

poverity, yes. livable...well they're living

[FORSAKENR320]

anything is livable

look at those fucks on the infomercials in africa with flys crawling on their eyeballs

poverity, yes. livable...well they're living

it takes alot to kill a bloated ethiopian child. i know.



i've tried

[Mommy]

it doesn't seem like too many people on here know exactly what poverty means, do they jim? but, they sure are gonna argue like they know first hand what being poor is like.



internet lol

there was a time in my life when i was?

[impala454]

I give about as much sympathy to poor people crying to the govt to get them more money as I do to the fat people who try to sue McDonalds. It's funny how people often look everywhere except themselves for the situation their in, and want everyone except themselves to try to bail them out. Someone suggested minimum wage needs to be raised with inflation... well guess what inflation is practically a direct result of minimum wage.

My answer on how to fix this? The govt free condom truck. Have it drive around shitty areas and pass em out. If people aren't able to have kids they don't give a shit about, they won't grow up to be worthless losers. The condoms that occasionally break will give us just enough people to run the wal marts & fast food restaurants.

[Spectatrix]

Someone suggested minimum wage needs to be raised with inflation... well guess what inflation is practically a direct result of minimum wage.

Yeah, I know... it's a nasty little catch-22.

[chook]

Yeah, I know... it's a nasty little catch-22.

I think inflation is based much more on the energy market.

[Billy]

Someone suggested minimum wage needs to be raised with inflation... well guess what inflation is practically a direct result of minimum wage.

Inflation is not a direct result of minimum wage. Inflation is made up of many things. All of which relate to how much money is in an economy. Goverment spending, trade, wealthy immigrants, etc all also effect inflation.

Right now, goverment spending is in the billions of dollars a year. The question is, compared to other things, how much inflation is caused by raising the minimum wage? I don't think anyone here really knows. Is it significant to even blame minimum wage for a rise in inflation? Again, no one here knows.

Everyone here talks about inflation like it's the end of the world. But is it? Sure, prices of everything generally increase with inflation, but so do wages. And how many people here have a lot of debt from student loans? You'll really benefit from inflation if you have fixed interest. Inflation also benefits the stock market. Generally, the stock market improves during inflationary times. And God knows our market could use the boost right now. So I really don't think the inflation argument holds a lot of water.

My question to many of you who claim it's "doable" to live on the current minimum wage: have you done it?

Probably not.

[pebkac]

Inflation is not a direct result of minimum wage. Inflation is made up of many things. All of which relate to how much money is in an economy. Goverment spending, trade, wealthy immigrants, etc all also effect inflation.

Right now, goverment spending is in the billions of dollars a year. The question is, compared to other things, how much inflation is caused by raising the minimum wage? I don't think anyone here really knows. Is it significant to even blame minimum wage for a rise in inflation? Again, no one here knows.

Everyone here talks about inflation like it's the end of the world. But is it? Sure, prices of everything generally increase with inflation, but so do wages. And how many people here have a lot of debt from student loans? You'll really benefit from inflation if you have fixed interest. Inflation also benefits the stock market. Generally, the stock market improves during inflationary times. And God knows our market could use the boost right now. So I really don't think the inflation argument holds a lot of water.

My question to many of you who claim it's "doable" to live on the current minimum wage: have you done it?

Probably not.

Minimum wage wouldn't be doable for a person who has kids at all.

[impala454]

My question to many of you who claim it's "doable" to live on the current minimum wage: have you done it?

Believe it or not cable tv & air conditioning aren't required for life to continue.

[Dogmeat]

My question to many of you who claim it's "doable" to live on the current minimum wage: have you done it?

Probably not.

Yes and no. I've worked minimum wage jobs in the interim of finding full-time permanent employment on several occasions in my life while completley supporting myself....Keep in mind I didn't start college until I was almost 22 years old ... The point I was trying to make in another thread, and I know Christine echo'd this, is if you are even remotley motivated it is NOT impossible to find a job that pays more than minimum wage. I've worked temp jobs that paid more than minimum wage even, and what it means is you learn to live within your means....EG, get off the damned drugs, stop drinking, all of that....It's really only been in the last 5 years I haven't had to worry about any of that

I'm just saying, it's still possible to live off minimum wage, but considering that if you're doing that full-time permanent, you're also probably more than likley living in subsidized housing, among other things.... If you aren't, you're basically too lazy to even go stand in the welfare line and I really don't pity you at all in that case...

Like I said, most people who start out at minimum wage jobs don't stay at minimum wage jobs if they're motivated people, and if the person isn't motivated, then that's their own damned fault....

[Spectatrix]

My question to many of you who claim it's "doable" to live on the current minimum wage: have you done it?

Probably not.

Well, sorta. When I was younger, my mother and I were being supported by my step-father, who had a job that paid barely more than minimum wage. My mother worked as a subsitute teacher for a while, but that was only a few months out of several years of living like that. He was paid low wages, but partially made up for it by working 7 days a week -- weekdays at a convenience store and weekends at a hardware store.

[Billy]

Well, sorta. When I was younger, my mother and I were being supported by my step-father, who had a job that paid barely more than minimum wage. My mother worked as a subsitute teacher for a while, but that was only a few months out of several years of living like that. He was paid low wages, but partially made up for it by working 7 days a week -- weekdays at a convenience store and weekends at a hardware store.

So why don't we just go ahead and re-legalize slavery? Because that's what it seems to take to just 'live' at minimum wage. The complete sacrifice of your own life, to make someone else rich.

Yeah, that seems like a fair society.

[Mommy]

Believe it or not cable tv & air conditioning aren't required for life to continue.

have you been listening to the news lately? deaths all across the country as a result of the heat. 100 degree weather without air conditioning can in some cases be deadly. seriously, i think the problem in this thread is the inability for people to step outside of their own little world and into the world of someone else.


additionally,

Someone suggested minimum wage needs to be raised with inflation... well guess what inflation is practically a direct result of minimum wage.

You're retarded....if that is the case, how come inflation is currently going on in every aspect of our country, yet minimum wage has been the same for 10 years?

[Mommy]

So why don't we just go ahead and re-legalize slavery?  Because that's what it seems to take to just 'live' at minimum wage.  The complete sacrifice of your own life, to make someone else rich.

Yeah, that seems like a fair society.

another extension of my point. Its great that people do all the work and get paid barely enough to get by (as some of you are saying) while the people who sit on their ass all day make millions. Oh yeah, thats so fair.

This post has been edited by Jessica: Jul 31 2006, 05:14 PM

[Dogmeat]

Jessica I think you have it backwards ... I really do.

By and large, the people who are millionairs have worked their asses off to become that way, with the exception of rock stars or hollywood actors mainly. The thing I don't think a lot of people realize is that by becoming that way in life you really only create more work for yourself. It's not easy being that rich ...

Given there are many heirs and whatnot to billion-dollar fortunes that probably don't qualify for this, but I think for the very large part of it this is true....You don't get to be that rich without being smart about things and working your ass off.

[Mommy]

Jessica I think you have it backwards ... I really do.

By and large, the people who are millionairs have worked their asses off to become that way, with the exception of rock stars or hollywood actors mainly. The thing I don't think a lot of people realize is that by becoming that way in life you really only create more work for yourself. It's not easy being that rich ...

Given there are many heirs and whatnot to billion-dollar fortunes that probably don't qualify for this, but I think for the very large part of it this is true....You don't get to be that rich without being smart about things and working your ass off.

mentally working hard...yes. physically working hard...not so much.


are we saying that mental capabilities is more important than physical?

[Dogmeat]

mentally working hard...yes. physically working hard...not so much.


are we saying that mental capabilities is more important than physical?

Well. Yeah ... heh, I mean that much is pretty much obvious wouldn't you say?

[Spectatrix]

I agree that CEO's often get paid much more than they're worth. However, that doesn't mean that people deserve 7 or 9 or 11 an hour or whatever the hell people are claiming a "living wage" is nowadays to flip burgers.

And Billy, your comparison to slavery is absolutely asinine. I maintain that anybody outside of their teens or early 20's still making minimum wage is either lazy/unmotivated or stupid. And I don't mean mentally retarded stupid, I mean pot-smoking, beer-guzzling fucking morons.

Hell, speaking of the mentally retarded, I remember now being friends with a girl who was somewhat retarded and even she was making $7 or so/hr working at an A&W store in a mall.

[Mommy]

I agree that CEO's often get paid much more than they're worth. However, that doesn't mean that people deserve 7 or 9 or 11 an hour or whatever the hell people are claiming a "living wage" is nowadays to flip burgers.

And Billy, your comparison to slavery is absolutely asinine. I maintain that anybody outside of their teens or early 20's still making minimum wage is either lazy/unmotivated or stupid. And I don't mean mentally retarded stupid, I mean pot-smoking, beer-guzzling fucking morons.

Hell, speaking of the mentally retarded, I remember now being friends with a girl who was somewhat retarded and even she was making $7 or so/hr working at an A&W store in a mall.

I worked to help place "special needs" teens (ie mentally slow) into jobs when I was in Lubbock. A lot of them dont make much above, if even $6 an hour even when having worked in the same place for more than a year or two. They are hard workers, but like I said before they arent management material so they will never be moved up. Some of you are basing the cost of living off of shitty places like Lubbock and Alberquerque where it fucking sucks so of course its cheaper to live.

[Jim]

I worked to help place "special needs" teens (ie mentally slow) into jobs when I was in Lubbock. A lot of them dont make much above, if even $6 an hour even when having worked in the same place for more than a year or two. They are hard workers, but like I said before they arent management material so they will never be moved up. Some of you are basing the cost of living off of shitty places like Lubbock and Alberquerque where it fucking sucks so of course its cheaper to live.

Ok, let's stop this mentally handicapped bullshit right now.

Retards (yes, I called them retards) have access to governmental aid in some shape or form. So, the argument of, "woe is them they is poe" is bullshit.

Even if that weren't the case, you can still get a pay raise or promotion without being management. The opportunities are there. If you don't take hold of them you have only one person to blame.

[Billy]

Ok, let's stop this mentally handicapped bullshit right now.

Retards (yes, I called them retards) have access to governmental aid in some shape or form. So, the argument of, "woe is them they is poe" is bullshit.

Even if that weren't the case, you can still get a pay raise or promotion without being management. The opportunities are there. If you don't take hold of them you have only one person to blame.

Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you do? I mean, besides play WoW and watch anime about feminine looking bisexual men butt fucking each other.

And to Christine: What would you call working 7 days a week, 8 to 10 hours a day, to just afford the things that allow you to live, if not slavery?

You think anyone can live without any shred of entertainment? Any kind of enjoyment in life? Why even live if not for atleast a little of it? For the richest country in the world, why should our poor do without any quality of life? Until ANY of you have lived a completely sterile life, I don't think there's anyone who can pass judgement.

[Jim]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you do? I mean, besides play WoW and watch anime about feminine looking bisexual men butt fucking each other.

And to Christine: What would you call working 7 days a week, 8 to 10 hours a day, to just afford the things that allow you to live, if not slavery?

You think anyone can live without any shred of entertainment? Any kind of enjoyment in life? Why even live if not for atleast a little of it? For the richest country in the world, why should our poor do without any quality of life? Until ANY of you have lived a completely sterile life, I don't think there's anyone who can pass judgement.

I was working at a call center for Cingular and now I'm working as a GM for WoW if you must know.

Yes, not having money sucks. However, if you're worried about entertainment, go take advantage of those free entertainment venues mentioned earlier (Library is one of them).

[moebary]

now I'm working as a GM for WoW if you must know.

I find this hilarious

[Dogmeat]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly do you do? I mean, besides play WoW and watch anime about feminine looking bisexual men butt fucking each other.

And to Christine: What would you call working 7 days a week, 8 to 10 hours a day, to just afford the things that allow you to live, if not slavery?

You think anyone can live without any shred of entertainment? Any kind of enjoyment in life? Why even live if not for atleast a little of it? For the richest country in the world, why should our poor do without any quality of life? Until ANY of you have lived a completely sterile life, I don't think there's anyone who can pass judgement.

Our poor are WAY the fuck richer than the poor in Somolia ... that much is for damn sure.

[Jim]

I find this hilarious

Oh, I'm sorry, you find me doing something I enjoy for a living funny?

[Mommy]

Ok, let's stop this mentally handicapped bullshit right now.

Retards (yes, I called them retards) have access to governmental aid in some shape or form. So, the argument of, "woe is them they is poe" is bullshit.

Even if that weren't the case, you can still get a pay raise or promotion without being management. The opportunities are there. If you don't take hold of them you have only one person to blame.

you know, how many "retards" have you been around? Im asking seriously. Im not trying to be like "oh well i no cuz i am ones"... No, Im being serious. I harp on the mentally slow thing because I have first hand experience because my brother has autism (not mentally slow but socially inept) and because I worked with special needs kids. Its just one example though, ya know. I know when I was a kid, I could make a penny for every weed I pulled. It was hard work, but I did it to make money. I could pull a good 500 weeds in an hour and make 5 bucks! Its sickening to think that a full grown person can make about the same as that. I was a fucking kid.

Yeah, I guess this hits close to home with me, but maybe thats a good thing because it provides insight to how other people live. The whole government funding thing is bullshit. If jobs paid better, we might some-what eliminate the need for welfare. Do you like to pay taxes that help to pay for the people who are working close to minimum wage's kid's diapers and formula....no, I bet you don't.

I totally agree with what Billy is saying. We are in a very wealthy and prosperous nation where there is money to be had by SOME. Why cant we make it more than some? I know the money is out there. Mcdonalds, walmart, etc are all multi billion dollar companies. What makes our lives fun and worth living for? Simple things like movies, music, and being able to not have to constantly worry about whether we are going to be able to make the next rent payment. Constantly having to worry about money fucking sucks.

[Mommy]

I find this hilarious

it explains a lot

[Jim]

Jessica, the opportunuties are there, you fail to see that. You know how many mentally handicapped people I worked with at McDonald's? More than then. Half of the people there could read above a second grade level. ANd half of those people were managers.

Also, again, laughing because I'm doing something I want to and liking it?

[GOB]

are we saying that mental capabilities is more important than physical?

yes.

[Mommy]

Jessica, the opportunuties are there, you fail to see that.  You know how many mentally handicapped people I worked with at McDonald's?  More than then.  Half of the people there could read above a second grade level.  ANd half of those people were managers.

Also, again, laughing because I'm doing something I want to and liking it?

I didnt say anything that I was laughing about it. I just said it explains a lot...

you fail to respond to my real arguements like where i point out that minimum wage is not increasing along with inflated prices or the fact that companies have the money to pay out more to their employees. Whereas you are talking about people that cant read above a 2nd grade level (and I hope you arent counting people that dont speak English as a first language bc that doesnt count), Im talking about people that cant even spell their own name much less write it....something that is taugh in kindergarden. I seriously have a hard time believing that you can be sympathetic to a past coworker and trully know if they were mentally slow or on drugs. I base this on your total ineptness to see beyond your own personal gain and into the pockets of someone else. Here, Ill lay it out in your terms. We pay a lot of money to help support low income people who use welfare. If companies such as walmart would pay their employees just a couple bucks more an hour (god knows they can afford to) then maybe we wouldnt have to shell out so much money to support welfare programs...therefore putting more money in your pocket. I'll leave out the part where the government would probably butt fuck us out of that money and spend it needlessly on more bureaucratic bullshit like White House correspondence dinners.

If you think that companies that arent in the spotlight as much as mcdonalds and walmart are quick to give raises and promotions, you are dead wrong. There are a lot of jobs out there that still pay close to minimum wage and offer hardly any room for growth. The point of all of this is not to say that people cant advance their economic siutuatios. The point of it is that minimum wage is not equivalent to economical inflation. How much longer are gas prices, stamp prices, food prices, etc going to have to go up before the govt (actually the republicans) starts to care and changes that? THAT IS THE POINT. Its not to say that a person cant advance. The point is is that minimum wage is not where it should be.

This post has been edited by Jessica: Jul 31 2006, 08:58 PM

[Mommy]

yes.

without the physical labor, the mental would go to waste.

[Spectatrix]

And to Christine: What would you call working 7 days a week, 8 to 10 hours a day, to just afford the things that allow you to live, if not slavery?

Life? Such may be hard, but it should be a temporary situation, unlike slavery. While working 7 days a week, my step-father still found time (and money) to go back to college, get his associates degree... few years later he got his bachelor's degree and now he's teaching electronics at Texas State Technical College, most of which he learned about while working weekends at that hardware store, not from school. He went from working 7 days a week near minimum wage to working a normal 8-5 job making 40k or so a year without a rich mommy and daddy paying for college. I don't know if he had any financial aid when he went back to school, but whatever he did was well within the realm of possibility for anybody who has the motivation to do it. And mind you, at the time he was supporting not only himself but also me and my lazy-ass, non-working mother.

[Spectatrix]

I probably should just leave this thread, but I'd like to first outline my thoughts on minimum wage a little more clearly and see what you guys (Billy, Jessica, other supporters of minimum wage) think.

I am of the opinion that most people (not including people with mental or physical disabilities) are capable of learning skills from a job and working their way up. Public education is free and while it may be crappy at some places, it does a decent enough job of giving people basic literacy and math skills at the very least, the basis of all other education.

Working at minimum wage, 40 hours a week, while not much of a living, is enough to support a single teen or 20-something with no kids. If they have a family to support, there's the option of welfare, food stamps, working extra hours, etc. In many jobs, people get raises every 3 or 6 months, so even if they start at $5.15, they won't be there for long IF they ask for their raises. The mistake many minimum-wagers make is not asking for their reviews and raises when they come due. Even if they can't move up at their current job, many skills are transferable to other business. If you're working at McDonald's, for instance, you can go and get a job at Wendy's or Burger King or xyz burger joint fairly easily.

For those with disabilities, either mental or physical, there's the option of government assistance. I think they are the responsibility of society as a whole and if companies are forced to pay them the same wages as other workers for subpar work (if it IS subpar, that is), they probably won't hire those with disabilities at all.

I think that minimum wage, if it's used at all (I oppose it in general, honestly) should be raised in accordance with inflation and should be higher or lower in areas depending on the cost of living. E.g., the minimum wage in Lubbock or Albuquerque would be much lower than that in New York City or San Francisco.

Personally I think that wages are a matter to be decided between a company and an employee, without government interference. The unemployment rate in the US is low enough that we as citizens have pretty good job mobility. If we don't like the wages, benefits, working conditions, etc. at one place, it's relatively easy to find a new job. Even without minimum wage, I feel that companies would need to offer wages of $5/hr or higher in order to attract good employees.

But that's just my 2 cents... with a bit less angry/defensive tone than I've had in previous posts in this thread. Thoughts?

[Mommy]

the federal minimum is $5.15; however states have the right to institute a higher minimum if they so chose....as in the case of Illinois where I believe the article said $6.25 is the minimum. Many states, however, follow the federal guidelines which includes Texas. I have seen several job ads for minimum wage as a starting pay and yes this was recently as in last week. My point all along was that minimum wage should rise slightly along with inflation. I would be glad if they set the limit to $6.50. That seems reasonable to me. I wasnt looking at long term results because yes, the average joe blow can move up in pay. My point was the short term like people who lose their jobs and are forced to flip burgers until they find better. Its not much of a means of getting by when there is a family to support. Thats my point. I wasnt looking at it in theory. I am looking at it in reality (for lack of a better word).

[nickluto]

you know what would make this thread more interesting?


















































whale penis

[FORSAKENR320]

My question to many of you who claim it's "doable" to live on the current minimum wage: have you done it?

Probably not.

yes. from age 17 to 19, and supporting a lazy bitch girlfriend on top. it's doable. but not when you spend $60 every 2 months on clothes.

*gasp!* the poor have to live without the little luxuries of life?!!!






guess we better pay them more for doing nothing extra.



by forcing companies to pay more to their employees, the ones who work for them that aren't making minimum wage are gonna get screwed.


jim bob the alcoholic gets a $2 raise because the goverment says so. the company, in an attempt to cut the cost of the sudden raises, will try to cut corners where they can. often the ones that are above the new minimum won't recieve the raise, or at least all of it. the company trying to rely on the "don't talk about how much money you make to other employees" bullshit to keep it a secret someone is getting screwed.

but thats my overall opinion on it.

[FORSAKENR320]

So why don't we just go ahead and re-legalize slavery? Because that's what it seems to take to just 'live' at minimum wage. The complete sacrifice of your own life, to make someone else rich.

Yeah, that seems like a fair society.

capitalism lol

[Mommy]

i also based my $60 thing on if it was like we grow out of clothes. I was kinda wrong on that. I fluctuate weight a lot so thats why I said that much, but unless you have a thyroid problem like I do or you are a growing kid, $60 is a lot. Get past that now. K thanx

[Dogmeat]

I buy $5 t shirts at k-mart and I am perfectly happy with them quite honestly, heh

[Mommy]

I buy $5 t shirts at k-mart and I am perfectly happy with them quite honestly, heh

only retards and junkies shop for clothes at kmart, hobo

which are you?

This post has been edited by Jessica: Jul 31 2006, 10:59 PM

[Dogmeat]

I'm a kangaroo-fish