Catholicism Options

[Spectatrix]

YOU DECIDE!

discuss.

This, in case you haven't guessed, was inspired by Lance's "fucking Christians" thread: http://www.techsans.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=1173

[GOB]

IT SUCKS BUT I HAVE NOTHING TO BASE THAT ON OTHER THAN PEDOPHILE PRIESTS AND OH YEAH THEY WORSHIP THE SAINTS OKAY

[Dogmeat]

I am pretty much against any form of organized relegion period, I don't necessarily care if it's devout christianity or radical islam ...

[Seeker]

catholicism was invented to control the masses

if you wanna be a christian then read and follow the bible, forget about all the stupid ass rituals that catholics made up

and quit worshipping the virgin mary, worship jesus you freaks

[Jim]

I smell flames

[FORSAKENR320]

catholicism was invented to control the masses

if you wanna be a christian then read and follow the bible, forget about all the stupid ass rituals that catholics made up

and quit worshipping the virgin mary, worship jesus you freaks

the bible is what was designed to control the masses



catholicism came right after that


don;t worship jesus at all, he was actually just the most glorified of the apostles

[Spectatrix]

catholicism was invented to control the masses

if you wanna be a christian then read and follow the bible, forget about all the stupid ass rituals that catholics made up

and quit worshipping the virgin mary, worship jesus you freaks

As a former Catholic, I have to say that US Catholics don't worship Mary or the other saints... somewhat different in other parts of the world, though.

[Jim]

As a former Catholic, I have to say that US Catholics don't worship Mary or the other saints... somewhat different in other parts of the world, though.

Some of the people in Lockney actually did Saint worship. But, then again, some people are fucking fanatical.

[GOB]

But, then again, some people are fucking fanatical.

ding ding ding

[Jim]

ding ding ding

These are the ones that yell at you when you say something that doesn't go with the Canon or anything like that. Oooh, I almost got my ass kicked for saying the pope was no more divine than that guy was.

[GOB]

These are the ones that yell at you when you say something that doesn't go with the Canon or anything like that. Oooh, I almost got my ass kicked for saying the pope was no more divine than that guy was.

exactly.

hah, some baptist girl freaked out one time when i told her i didn't like christian music because it's commercialized jesus.

[Jim]

exactly.

hah, some baptist girl freaked out one time when i told her i didn't like christian music because it's commercialized jesus.

Wouldn't she agreed with that because she's baptist...?

[GOB]

maybe if she was southern baptist. she was probably just mad because i said something sucked that she liked.

[chook]

This thread has been rated NA-7.....banned

[pebkac]

I'm not catholic, so I don't really care.

[Spectatrix]

This thread has been rated NA-7.....banned

O MI GOSH!

[Erik B.]

Praying and asking a saint/Mary to intercede (pray for you) is not the same as worshiping the saint/Mary. Common misconception.

[Tygriss]

well, i don't think it sucks. but it's not exactly awesome either.

catholic school was fun. the uniforms made for great clubbing attire once i got out. the cathedrals are gorgeous. lots of cool movies: exorcist, the 10 commandments, davinci code, etc.

more importantly, people don't come knocking on my door asking me if i'm catholic or not. and the church goers don't break out into convulsions waving their hands in the air during a sermon. just a lot of people pretending to be guilty, drinking wine, and doing naughty things.

[jonathan83]

Praying and asking a saint/Mary to intercede (pray for you) is not the same as worshiping the saint/Mary. Common misconception.

very close in my opinion. if you're praying to a saint or mary... you must believe they have some special holiness or whatever.

[Rocky]

very close in my opinion. if you're praying to a saint or mary... you must believe they have some special holiness or whatever.

You are twisting the words.


It's not praying to - it's praying while making a request for them to help you. They got the inside track on that nigga god, so you ask for their help.





I was raised catholic, made communion, then decided fuck christ. AND LOOK AT ME NOW MOM !

[jonathan83]

You are twisting the words.


It's not praying to - it's praying while making a request for them to help you. They got the inside track on that nigga god, so you ask for their help.





I was raised catholic, made communion, then decided fuck christ. AND LOOK AT ME NOW MOM !

nah, still the same to me.

How can normal, dead people (because mary and "saints" were ordinary people like you and me) hear your prayers? or even, help you!?

if you believe they can do this, c'mon..you've gotta believe they're somewhat holy or something!

[Rocky]

Are you really trying to argue feasibility when you are a christian to begin with ?


I think all of you are full of shit for having faith like this to begin with - but its not too hard to understand the thought process behind these things.

howstuffworks.com !

[FORSAKENR320]

Wouldn't she agreed with that because she's baptist...?

as far as i know baptist highly promote the use of music in all forms in worship.

gambling is what they have a real problem with





i know who you're talking about, just can't place the name. Church of Christ comes to mind, but i'm unsure if it's them than don't believe in "unorthodox" christian music

[jonathan83]

probably so forsaken. Church of Christ believe in NO music in the church, except for the human voice. there's like one verse in the bible that they base it off of. abilene is the church of christ capital so i grew up hearing that.

[jonathan83]

Are you really trying to argue feasibility when you are a christian to begin with ?

it's just that many of the things catholics believe, aren't in the bible at all. i can't believe something that a priest (ordinary man) or pope (ordinary man) tells me. another thing is the catechism. the bible states plain and simple NOT to add anything to the bible, or you'll burn in the lake of fire or something. and of course, catholics decided to add another whole book on rules and stuff. i just don't buy it.
the more men you have = corruptness+++

[FORSAKENR320]

it's just that many of the things catholics believe, aren't in the bible at all. i can't believe something that a priest (ordinary man) or pope (ordinary man) tells me. another thing is the catechism. the bible states plain and simple NOT to add anything to the bible, or you'll burn in the lake of fire or something. and of course, catholics decided to add another whole book on rules and stuff. i just don't buy it.
the more men you have = corruptness+++

maybe they feel they are allowed a little flexibility due to the fact they REMOVED 83 books from the original bible.......

[FORSAKENR320]

just a lot of people pretending to be guilty, drinking wine, and doing naughty things.

almost converted me there









and hieu, i'm surprised at you. if dating nick hasn't taught you ANYTHING else, it should have at least taught you what happens to asian females dressed in catholic school girl outfits


nsfw

[GOB]

the more men you have = corruptness+++

well i can see where you get that idea, what with all the helping the less fortunate that goes on . people who actually think the catholic church is corrput today need to do some serious looking around. how many jim bakkers, jim jones, and pat robertsons (and god warriors!) do you see going to catholic mass? and all those catholic priests that drive brand new $80k cadillacs and live in million dollar homes, where are they? protestant churches are incredibly corrupt when it comes to handling $$$

[FORSAKENR320]

i have a hard time swallowing a religion that bases it's self upon Jesus.


simply because until jesus arrived, offerings to God were not done in money. they were done in crops and live stock. when jesus came around is when it suddenly became neccessary to donate in hard cash. did jesus invent the currancy back then? no, it existed before him. so doesn't it seem odd that him and his posse suddenly change the offering system that had worked since the beginning of human society? ++corruption from the beginning++

[Rocky]

churches don't run on faith and love

you need money to pay the bills, son !

[GOB]

well i need 12 hookers sent to my home every day.


oh don't worry, i already forgave myself, so it's all good.

[Erik B.]

i have a hard time swallowing a religion that bases it's self upon Jesus.


simply because until jesus arrived, offerings to God were not done in money. they were done in crops and live stock. when jesus came around is when it suddenly became neccessary to donate in hard cash. did jesus invent the currancy back then? no, it existed before him. so doesn't it seem odd that him and his posse suddenly change the offering system that had worked since the beginning of human society? ++corruption from the beginning++

Well, that's true if you completely ignore the temple tax that jews were required by law to pay in atomement for their sins.

Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple claiming they were turning the temple into a "den of thieves." Why? Because the only currency allowed to pay the temple tax was using the Shekel. The money changers would convert your foreign currency to Shekels for a fee.

You say that giving money started with Jesus? From Jewish law (which, in case you were curious, the Jews were around before Jesus):

Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto Yahweh (Ex. 31:12-14).

See, the Jews thought they had to pay money to be forgiven. Jesus took that away.

[FORSAKENR320]

Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto Yahweh (Ex. 31:12-14).

as i stated before, offerings were done in cattle, and crops


later, even salt



the most common sacrifices were that of grains, in remberance of God's favoritism of Abel

and yes, the money changers WERE kicked out, but their job ORIGINATED by taking the crops, cattle and salt, and bartering it for the equivelent in currancy, then converting it to shekels. farm folk didn't just walk around with hard cash, dude..... literacy, math and writing skills were usually only obtained by the well off people, the poor folk needed the merchant class in order to deal with such matters, and thus it was exploited


learn ALL of the shit you're talking about, don't pick and choose what you think sounds convieniant to your arguement

[woody]

i have a hard time swallowing a religion that bases it's self upon Jesus.


simply because until jesus arrived, offerings to God were not done in money. they were done in crops and live stock. when jesus came around is when it suddenly became neccessary to donate in hard cash. did jesus invent the currancy back then? no, it existed before him. so doesn't it seem odd that him and his posse suddenly change the offering system that had worked since the beginning of human society? ++corruption from the beginning++

and i've yet to have been to a catholic church where people are told...

" donatation are taken only in cash, all other forms of dontations such as volunteer work are not accepted"

[FORSAKENR320]

and i've yet to have been to a catholic church where people are told...

" donatation are taken only in cash, all other forms of dontations such as volunteer work are not accepted"

offering plate






stick your volunteer work in that

[woody]

go to church

see how many people don't stick money in it

[woody]

oh and by the way...

the people who go up and down the isles giving the offering plate...

ya...volunteers

[Erik B.]

it's just that many of the things catholics believe, aren't in the bible at all. i can't believe something that a priest (ordinary man) or pope (ordinary man) tells me. another thing is the catechism. the bible states plain and simple NOT to add anything to the bible, or you'll burn in the lake of fire or something. and of course, catholics decided to add another whole book on rules and stuff. i just don't buy it.
the more men you have = corruptness+++

Have you ever read the Catechism? So much of what you'll find there is scripturally based. It just goes into greater detail to help us understand the scriptures. It explains how, scripturally and traditionally, we Catholics came to believe what we do.

Also, the Catholic Church didn't add any books to the bible. The Protestants removed 7 of them them, though. I guess removing books is ok, so long as you don't add any?

Both Protestant and Catholic Bibles have the same number of books in the New Testament: 27.
However, Catholic Bibles have 7 extra books, and here's why:

Around 2200 years ago (so obviously before Jesus' time), Jewish scholars put together all of the Jewish Scriptures - what we call the Old Testament. There were 46 books, called the Septuagint, that were accepted until about 100 A.D. At that time, the Jewish leaders decided to get rid of the non-Hebrew books, of which there were seven.

This change was after Jesus' life, however. So He would have known all 46. And those 46 + 27 New Testament books=73.

So these 73 were accepted as the Bible for almost 1500 years, when Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation. Because there were not Hebrew manuscripts known at the time, he changed the Bible from 46 to 39 books...and that's why there's 7 less books there today.

[FORSAKENR320]

oh and by the way...

the people who go up and down the isles giving the offering plate...

ya...volunteers

those "volunteers" fulfill the job requirements for a typical sermon. in less strict churches, those plates are passed by children of the church. in more strict churches, deacons are allowed that privilage. becoming a deacon isn't something you are just one day allowed to do, it's a rank you earn through dedication and you have to be elected. i myself am a deacon, the youngest ever elected by my church at the age of 18. before that the youngest was my father, at the age of 34
duties include strong leadership and motivational purposes to fellow members of the church. dedication to increasing the church populous, officiating over church events, specific duties during services, and performing tasks to better help the pastor with his service to the church.



it is not "volunteer work" and you know very well that volunteering has nothing to do with the discussion of offerings. we are talking about monitary and materialistic offerings, the offerings of time and spirit are valid, but not being questioned here

[Erik B.]

as i stated before, offerings were done in cattle, and crops


later, even salt



the most common sacrifices were that of grains, in remberance of God's favoritism of Abel

and yes, the money changers WERE kicked out, but their job ORIGINATED by taking the crops, cattle and salt, and bartering it for the equivelent in currancy, then converting it to shekels. farm folk didn't just walk around with hard cash, dude..... literacy, math and writing skills were usually only obtained by the well off people, the poor folk needed the merchant class in order to deal with such matters, and thus it was exploited


learn ALL of the shit you're talking about, don't pick and choose what you think sounds convieniant to your arguement

A required offering is still a required offering, even when your only form of currency is crops and livestock. However you look at it, they were required to pay money to atone for their sins.

I don't put money into the offering plate usually. But I do give to the church through volunteering, and they gladly accept that from me.

[FORSAKENR320]

A required offering is still a required offering, even when your only form of currency is crops and livestock. However you look at it, they were required to pay money to atone for their sins.

I don't put money into the offering plate usually. But I do give to the church through volunteering, and they gladly accept that from me.

you completely missed the entire point of the discussion

come back when you can follow a conversation


YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK



GOODBYE

[Erik B.]

you completely missed the entire point of the discussion

come back when you can follow a conversation


YOU ARE THE WEAKEST LINK



GOODBYE

That's my favorite way to end an argument.

BAH... YOU JUST DON'T GET IT.... BYE! I'M SO MUCH SMARTER THAN YOU!

[GOB]

those "volunteers" fulfill the job requirements for a typical sermon. in less strict churches, those plates are passed by children of the church. in more strict churches, deacons are allowed that privilage. becoming a deacon isn't something you are just one day allowed to do, it's a rank you earn through dedication and you have to be elected. i myself am a deacon, the youngest ever elected by my church at the age of 18. before that the youngest was my father, at the age of 34
duties include strong leadership and motivational purposes to fellow members of the church. dedication to increasing the church populous, officiating over church events, specific duties during services, and performing tasks to better help the pastor with his service to the church.



it is not "volunteer work" and you know very well that volunteering has nothing to do with the discussion of offerings. we are talking about monitary and materialistic offerings, the offerings of time and spirit are valid, but not being questioned here

i believe he was talking about catholic church. and they are volunteers.

[Seeker]

those "volunteers" fulfill the job requirements for a typical sermon. in less strict churches, those plates are passed by children of the church. in more strict churches, deacons are allowed that privilage. becoming a deacon isn't something you are just one day allowed to do, it's a rank you earn through dedication and you have to be elected. i myself am a deacon, the youngest ever elected by my church at the age of 18. before that the youngest was my father, at the age of 34
duties include strong leadership and motivational purposes to fellow members of the church. dedication to increasing the church populous, officiating over church events, specific duties during services, and performing tasks to better help the pastor with his service to the church.



it is not "volunteer work" and you know very well that volunteering has nothing to do with the discussion of offerings. we are talking about monitary and materialistic offerings, the offerings of time and spirit are valid, but not being questioned here

i pity your church!

[Seeker]

the most common sacrifices were that of grains, in remberance of God's favoritism of Abel

god has favorites? that doesn't sound like a loving/forgiving/merciful/nice god

[Erik B.]

god has favorites? that doesn't sound like a loving/forgiving/merciful/nice god

Yeah. Context, Lance. Context.

[Spectatrix]

nah, still the same to me.

How can normal, dead people (because mary and "saints" were ordinary people like you and me) hear your prayers? or even, help you!?

if you believe they can do this, c'mon..you've gotta believe they're somewhat holy or something!

Well, Catholics believe that Mary and the other saints are in Heaven and that they can pray to God just as you and I can. Catholics ask the saints to pray for them just as they might ask other living people to pray for them or for a cause or whatever. If I ask you to pray with me for something, does that mean that I think you're holy? No.

[jonathan83]

protestant churches are incredibly corrupt when it comes to handling $$$

yeah, many are. not disagreeing at all there.

[Jim]

Well, Catholics believe that Mary and the other saints are in Heaven and that they can pray to God just as you and I can. Catholics ask the saints to pray for them just as they might ask other living people to pray for them or for a cause or whatever. If I ask you to pray with me for something, does that mean that I think you're holy? No.

Bah, you responded before me. Bad Christine =P

[jonathan83]

Well, Catholics believe that Mary and the other saints are in Heaven and that they can pray to God just as you and I can. Catholics ask the saints to pray for them just as they might ask other living people to pray for them or for a cause or whatever. If I ask you to pray with me for something, does that mean that I think you're holy? No.

no, if you ask me to pray with you that's different because we're both alive and praying to God.

i dont understand why catholics would pray to Mary and other saints to pray FOR them. why wouldn't they want to go STRAIGHT to God himself? do they not think they're good enough to go directly to him?

[jwttu]

no, if you ask me to pray with you that's different because we're both alive and praying to God.

i dont understand why catholics would pray to Mary and other saints to pray FOR them. why wouldn't they want to go STRAIGHT to God himself? do they not think they're good enough to go directly to him?

I think what Christine is trying to say is that in addition to praying to god directly they also get the saints to pray for them. So its basically they are counting on the more that pray to god the more likely the prayer is to be answered.

[Seeker]

no, if you ask me to pray with you that's different because we're both alive and praying to God.

i dont understand why catholics would pray to Mary and other saints to pray FOR them. why wouldn't they want to go STRAIGHT to God himself? do they not think they're good enough to go directly to him?

QFT

[Seeker]

god has favorites? that doesn't sound like a loving/forgiving/merciful/nice god

BUMP

[Jim]

no, if you ask me to pray with you that's different because we're both alive and praying to God.

i dont understand why catholics would pray to Mary and other saints to pray FOR them. why wouldn't they want to go STRAIGHT to God himself? do they not think they're good enough to go directly to him?

Stop contradicting yourself, please. Why can't you just go to God yourself without asking someone elese? Never, EVER ask for someone to pray for you. Or, you can, if you stop saying that asking the saints/Mary to pray for you is the same as worshipping them and is wrong.

[Erik B.]

How can normal, dead people (because mary and "saints" were ordinary people like you and me) hear your prayers? or even, help you!?

For starters, we don't believe that people in heaven are dead. Quite the opposite.

Jesus said "Now he is a God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive." (Lk 20:39-40)

[chook]

How can normal, dead people (because mary and "saints" were ordinary people like you and me) hear your prayers? or even, help you!?

if you believe they can do this, c'mon..you've gotta believe they're somewhat holy or something!

They cannot, their is no heaven. Your minister said it so he could molest little boys like you, then use the power of persuasion to make up the story of Jesus. Like you among all people, you've gotta believe!

EDIT : NO ETERNAL LIFE!

[chook]

churches don't run on faith and love

you need money to pay the bills, son !

There is an energy source that runs on PLURific love and faith, but the govt keeps it secret!

[FORSAKENR320]

why wouldn't they want to go STRAIGHT to God himself? do they not think they're good enough to go directly to him?

you've actually caught on the the gist of it. though not in the way you want. catholicism is about humility and humbleness of spirit. as an unclean being, do you feel it's ok to march up to god and demand attention? no, you look on the face of god with downcast eyes. there is also a different angle thats missing. christians believe that you die, and go to heaven, but the human spirit will forever remain a human spirit, for that is gods favorite creation. in catholicism, there are those (saints) who not only go to heaven, but are allowed a closer seat at the left hand of god, and can actually become angels. it is believed that those saints actually earn that right. since the angels soul duty (all 3-4 layers of them) is to serve the will of god, you aren't actually praying to the saint, you are honoring his/her worthyness, and asking guidance from that spirit who sits so close to god, WHILE praying for god's blessing

[Spectatrix]

Um, Brandon, Catholics don't think that saints become angels. Angels are celestial beings, without free will, created completely seperately from humans. They DO believe, however, that having been good enough to get into heaven (as evidenced by their holy lives), that maybe the saints know a thing or two about that whole "god" thing and can get a word in edgewise.

[woody]

[FORSAKENR320]

Um, Brandon, Catholics don't think that saints become angels. Angels are celestial beings, without free will, created completely seperately from humans. They DO believe, however, that having been good enough to get into heaven (as evidenced by their holy lives), that maybe the saints know a thing or two about that whole "god" thing and can get a word in edgewise.

hmm, then am i thinking methodist or episcipalian? (sp)


went to those too. damn religions and their "jesus wore a red cloak! no, he wore a blue one!" differences

[Spectatrix]

hmm, then am i thinking methodist or episcipalian? (sp)


went to those too. damn religions and their "jesus wore a red cloak! no, he wore a blue one!" differences

Looks like Mormons believe that... they apparently say that Adam turned into Michael the archangel and that Noah turned into Gabriel.

[FORSAKENR320]

Looks like Mormons believe that... they apparently say that Adam turned into Michael the archangel and that Noah turned into Gabriel.

i remember my run in with mormons.......

we had porno playing on the big screen, were talking shots of vodka at 11am, and offering it to them./ all of us dressed like damn heathans... this i got into a discussion with them and forced them to admit that jesus was counter productive to christianity

[nickluto]

Catholicism messes you up. Makes you feel guilty about inherent characteristics of the human condition.

And yes, I was raised a Catholic until age 18.

[jonathan83]

Stop contradicting yourself, please.

i'm not contradicting myself.

Why can't you just go to God yourself without asking someone elese? 

you CAN and DO go to God yourself. It's just that asking someone else to pray WITH you is like prayering in number and I know the bible mentions about praying together in groups and for other people, etc.

Never, EVER ask for someone to pray for you.  Or, you can, if you stop saying that asking the saints/Mary to pray for you is the same as worshipping them and is wrong.

I can and will ask peopleto pray for/with me. But ASKING a saint or mary anything at all is acknowledging that they can hear you and how the HECK do you come to that realization?

yes, as someone pointed out earlier, they are in heaven and alive in spirit and all that, but where where where does anything say that they can hear your prayers? I believe there are people in heaven and all that, but God himself only has the powers to hear your prayers. unless you can show me something to prove me wrong, and then i'll be wrong.

[jonathan83]

For starters, we don't believe that people in heaven are dead. Quite the opposite.

Jesus said "Now he is a God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive." (Lk 20:39-40)

ok as i just said in my post right above... yeah, i didn't mean dead in that way. i mean yes, they're humanly dead but they have spirits alive in heaven. yeah, i believe that too.
BUT, i've never read or heard or been told anything about how anybody (except God himself) could hear you or your prayers. Do you think everyone in heaven is looking down on us, helping us out? Are the semi-gods now too or something? I dont understand why anyone would believe that they could hear and help us.

[Erik B.]

As far as I know, the saints have no power to actually perform miracles themselves. However, it is the view of the church that by asking a saint to intercede for you, miracles can happen through that saint's intercession. God performs the acts. The saints just pray on your behalf to make it happen.

[chook]

ok as i just said in my post right above... yeah, i didn't mean dead in that way. i mean yes, they're humanly dead but they have spirits alive in heaven. yeah, i believe that too.
BUT, i've never read or heard or been told anything about how anybody (except God himself) could hear you or your prayers. Do you think everyone in heaven is looking down on us, helping us out? Are the semi-gods now too or something? I dont understand why anyone would believe that they could hear and help us.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
John 3:16
Never perishing sounds like you never truely die, and then they can pray for you.

The Jews call on Elijah during the passover seder, you are calling them to help pray for you to god.

[jonathan83]

you are calling them to help pray for you to god.

no i'm not. i'm not jewish

[GOB]

no i'm not. i'm not jewish

well hey, how about instead of having a completely closed mind to the fact that a several billion people pray to dead people, how about you read what's been posted.

[jonathan83]

well hey, how about instead of having a completely closed mind to the fact that a several billion people pray to dead people, how about you read what's been posted.

what are you talking about? he was talking about passover, which is completely unrelated. plus, i already responded to this, so here it is again:

yeah, i didn't mean dead in that way. i mean yes, they're humanly dead but they have spirits alive in heaven. yeah, i believe that too.
BUT, i've never read or heard or been told anything about how anybody (except God himself) could hear you or your prayers. Do you think everyone in heaven is looking down on us, helping us out? Are the semi-gods now too or something? I dont understand why anyone would believe that they could hear and help us.

now you can read what's been posted.

This post has been edited by jonathan83: May 31 2006, 09:38 AM

[chook]

what are you talking about? he was talking about passover, which is completely unrelated. plus, i already responded to this, so here it is again:

now you can read what's been posted.

Yeah, Jesus was a white middle class person who lived in Suburbia and voted straight republican, all hail White Jesus!

[Spectatrix]

what are you talking about? he was talking about passover, which is completely unrelated. plus, i already responded to this, so here it is again:

How is it completely unrelated? If Jews call on Elijah to pray for them during the Seder, doesn't that lend some legitimacy (and historicity) to the Catholic practice of asking the saints to pray for them?

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: May 31 2006, 09:51 AM

[jonathan83]

Yeah, Jesus was a white middle class person who lived in Suburbia and voted straight republican, all hail White Jesus!

i really have no idea what you're trying to get at dude.

[jonathan83]

How is it completely unrelated? If Jews call on Elijah to pray for them during the Seder, doesn't that lend some legitimacy (and historicity) to the Catholic practice of asking the saints to pray for them?

i don't see how it would make it more legitimate? either way i'm saying i don't agree with it, and haven't seen in the bible where it mentions any of this stuff. it just doesn't make sense to me.

[Spectatrix]

One of my Xanga acquaintances discussed this back in February, so I thought it might be pertinent to repeat his post here:

Is the ancient Christian practice of offering prayers (or prayer requests) to departed saints idolatrous?
St. Augustine of Hippo, in North Africa:

At the Lord's table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps.

Answering Objections From the Comment Box:
(1)  Hm..using saints as messengers/intercessors between you and God. Didn't Jesus reserve that right solely for Himself?

Donald Fairbairn, a Protestant, gives a good example of the common reply to this:

"......... the saints are not mediators between people and God.  Instead, they are intercessors who pray for believers on earth.  As early as the end of the fourth century, Eastern theologians such as the three Cappadocians and John Chrysostom argued that departed saints continued to pray for people just as believers on earth prayed for each other.  Consequently, when Christians invoke the aid of departed saints, this act is no different from asking other living believers to pray for them."

2.Why would a dead dude be able to hear you, especially if you picked a popular one who's being prayed to elsewhere simultaneously? Omnipresence isn't ours to claim.

You're a Christian, so I'll give you a one word answer: God.  I'm suprised you would ask this as you, being reasonable, must assume there is some theological reasoning behind this.

2. Don't people in heaven have better things to do than have people on earth bothering them for favors all the time? Is that gonna happen to us when we die?

Yeah, why would departed saints give a flip about the condition of the Church on earth?

3. Depending on the saint you chose, he might be in the wrong place to convey your concerns to God.

Where is the saint again?

4. Is the saint supposed to have extra holiness bonus points or something? Or are they just better at prayer than you?

Yes, No, Both and Neither.  The saints are holy by virtue of their actually being in the presence and in fuller communion with the Lord, from that we could possibly infer that they would be better at praying than we are. Another independent rationale for petitioning their prayers would be the same reasons we ask fellow believers to pray for us.

5. God (Jesus included) is the only one that we have scriptural justification to pray to.  The Catholic Church has witnessed against itself in that it turns away from Jesus as the only intercessor, advocate, and mediator, and turns to Mary and the "saints" for divine blessing.  The witness confirms their seperation from the Head of the Church.  They now try to find a gate other than Jesus.

I will deal with the italicized part later.  I think the difficulty disappears when you understand this as no different from asking other living believers to pray for us.  Perhaps you could argue that this operates under erroneous assumptions, but you will agree that it is not idolatrous.

6.  I figure if Jesus said we should pray exclusively to God, having never mentioned praying to anyone, and God stressed praying to Him and not other gods or entities to the Jews, that it's probably best to just pray to God unless He tells you to do otherwise.  What can a saint do other than what God does through him? Nothing.

Define "prayer" here.  If we defined it as "speak" or "request" (which I am asking others to do for me), the above would obviously appear absurd.  What I have italicized above is very essential to understanding the theology of the practice.

The main point is that if the body and even conscienceness is destroyed, while the soul sleeps, then how can you pray to anyone beyond the grave?

By not holding to conditional immortality as the Church has for 2000 years?

Why would you pray to Mary, or St. (fill in the blank) when you have Christ, your savior, and intersessor as Hebrews says?  Why would you use another human to talk to God?  It almost feels like a slap in the face to Christ, if you say you would rather pray to a human than Christ himself. Am I totally off base here?

Yes, you are completely off base.  I've said this again and again: STUDY CHURCH HISTORY!  We are asking the saints for their prayers.  Why do you ask your friends to pray when you can yourself?  Why do you think the majority of the bishops and laity of the Christian Church for the last two thousand years have engaged in an idolatrous practice, did Jesus fail promise to guide them into the truth?  Listen to Jerome, whose words reflect the pratice of the entire Church in his day:

You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard...But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (ST. JEROME Against Vigilantius 6 AD 406)

http://www.xanga.com/mr_jargon/440978625/item.html

This post has been edited by Spectatrix: May 31 2006, 06:22 PM

[Billy]

This thread is soaked in futility.

[Jim]

I just don't get why praying to someone who is dead (they're in heaven, yah and can watch us and I believe people in heaven do watch us, if I remember my Bible...) is seen as worshipping them. Asking them for help isn't praising/worshipping/making them an idol.

[Erik B.]

I just don't get why praying to someone who is dead (they're in heaven, yah and can watch us and I believe people in heaven do watch us, if I remember my Bible...) is seen as worshipping them. Asking them for help isn't praising/worshipping/making them an idol.

Aside from the accusations of cannibalism, this is probably the biggest issue people take with the Church.

[chook]

i really have no idea what you're trying to get at dude.

Coincidentaly, neither do I!

[Spectatrix]

Aside from the accusations of cannibalism, this is probably the biggest issue people take with the Church.

Well the sacrament of the Eucharist *is* ritual cannibalism... I knew that even when I was Catholic.

[nickluto]

Well the sacrament of the Eucharist *is* ritual cannibalism... I knew that even when I was Catholic.

Figuratively, not literally...unless the Cruton's of Christ are really people.

Even at the first supper, the first communion, they didnt all bite jesus, and suck his blood.


omg, solyent green !

[GhostofTHECHICKE...]

You people are making jesus angry

[Spectatrix]

Figuratively, not literally...unless the Cruton's of Christ are really people.

Even at the first supper, the first communion, they didnt all bite jesus, and suck his blood.


omg, solyent green !

Doctrine of transubstantiation. Catholics believe that the substance of the bread and wine literally transform into the body and blood of Christ, though the appearance of them do not change. The Church also states that Jesus had the nature of both God and man, which would make the body of Christ human flesh. Thus, ritual cannibalism.

[jonathan83]

I just don't get why praying to someone who is dead (they're in heaven, yah and can watch us and I believe people in heaven do watch us, if I remember my Bible...) is seen as worshipping them. Asking them for help isn't praising/worshipping/making them an idol.

ok well first, i dont remember anything about people in heaven being able to watch us. can you show me what you're talking about?

second, i've already said this a few times. if you're asking them for help, you obviously must believe they can help you, right? and if you believe someone has powers to help you, then that's something. i'm not saying you're "worshipping" them, but you are believing that they are powerful and have some very high significance. whereas, the 10 commandments does say "take no other gods before me" and not to pray to anyone else. and yes, i would consider that praying to someone else.

[woody]

define worshipping....

i'm not saying you're "worshipping" them

the 10 commandments does say "take no other gods before me

if your asking them to help you pray...does that mean you're worshipping them?

[jonathan83]

no, i don't think it's worshipping..but it still seems wrong to me. like you're trying to go over God's head and talk to someone else, because you're too afraid or something. and i just dont believe anyone else besides God can hear your prayers. but hey, that's me. that's why i'm not catholic.

[woody]

granted...

but given the argument...you're not going over god. you're asking someone to help you get to god.

[Testm0nkey]

wouldnt praying to someone who is dead for help be a form of idol worship? it is implying they would have the power to intervene..................................



thats what jon said. i agree!

[jonathan83]

you're asking someone to help you get to god.

because you can't get to him yourself?

and yes to what cathryn said as well.

[Spectatrix]

wouldnt praying to someone who is dead for help be a form of idol worship? it is implying they would have the power to intervene..................................



thats what jon said. i agree!

The idea is that you can talk to the saints (one-way conversation) just as easily as you could talk another living Christian. By asking them to intercede, you're just asking them to pray TO GOD for xyz while you ALSO are praying TO GOD for xyz, just as you might get a group together on Earth to pray for rain during a drought or to pray for someone's recovery in the hospital, or whatever.

It's believed that at a minimum the saints can pray just as they or anyone else could do so while on Earth. And who's to say that, being in Heaven, they can't just mosey on up to God and talk to him "face-to-face"?

[Testm0nkey]

my mom sounds like a horrible catholic

[jonathan83]

The idea is that you can talk to the saints (one-way conversation) just as easily as you could talk another living Christian. By asking them to intercede, you're just asking them to pray TO GOD for xyz while you ALSO are praying TO GOD for xyz, just as you might get a group together on Earth to pray for rain during a drought or to pray for someone's recovery in the hospital, or whatever.

It's believed that at a minimum the saints can pray just as they or anyone else could do so while on Earth. And who's to say that, being in Heaven, they can't just mosey on up to God and talk to him "face-to-face"?

that would be unfair. so you go through the saints and God will listen to you more than others? hmmm.

and..are you sure you aren't just defending the argument, just to be on the other side?
because i really don't see how you of all people would agree with this.

anhow, whenever you are praying to the saints or mary, i seriously doubt you pray to them just like any other person (as in informally "hey mary, just wondering..could you please pray for blah blah"). i was under the impression that you have to hold beads in your hand and repeat all this ritualistic stuff in order for it to work (superstition+++).

am i right or wrong?

[Erik B.]

that would be unfair. so you go through the saints and God will listen to you more than others? hmmm.

and..are you sure you aren't just defending the argument, just to be on the other side?
because i really don't see how you of all people would agree with this.

anhow, whenever you are praying to the saints or mary, i seriously doubt you pray to them just like any other person (as in informally "hey mary, just wondering..could you please pray for blah blah"). i was under the impression that you have to hold beads in your hand and repeat all this ritualistic stuff in order for it to work (superstition+++).

am i right or wrong?

There's no requirement to hold beads or pray in any specific way. Hell, there's a prayer to St. Anthony (Patron saint of lost objects), that's so simple it's childish (probably the intent, really): "Tony, Tony, turn around. Something's lost and can't be found..."

There are specific prayers that you can pray, but you aren't required to.

I'd like to point out the wording of the Hail Mary.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death. Amen."

We're not worshipping her. We are asking her to pray for us.

What's wrong with her defending the argument? Even if she doesn't believe it, it doesn't mean that she doesn't understand the theological reasoning behind it.

[Spectatrix]

and..are you sure you aren't just defending the argument, just to be on the other side?
because i really don't see how you of all people would agree with this.

Playing Devil's Advocate? Nah... not this time around. I agree that it might not be the most theologically sound practice in history, but I don't think it amounts to idolatry like many Protestants think (and no, I know you're not claiming that).

[Erik B.]

I think more experienced apologists can explain the prayer thing better than I can:

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

[FORSAKENR320]

[FORSAKENR320]

i laughed

[Spectatrix]

i laughed

I lol'ed

[Erik B.]

Playing Devil's Advocate? Nah... not this time around. I agree that it might not be the most theologically sound practice in history, but I don't think it amounts to idolatry like many Protestants think (and no, I know you're not claiming that).

A huge difference between Protestants and Catholics and Protestants is the concept of Sacred Tradition (with a capital T). Protestants rely on "Sola Scriptura", or scripture alone, whereas we take scripture and also take into consideration the 2000 years of Tradition established when Jesus made Peter the first Pope.