fuckin' christians Options

[Seeker]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dw...k.21192740.html

Pair fights church on sharing confessions

Exclusive: Watermark says telling others of sins is in bylaws

08:05 AM CDT on Friday, May 26, 2006

By MICHAEL GRABELL and JEFFREY WEISS / The Dallas Morning News

Does a church have the right to publicly reveal a person's private sins? A Dallas court is being asked to decide whether Watermark Community Church can do exactly that to a man and a woman identified in court records as "John Doe" and "Jane Roe."

Their attorney says that the pair thought they had revealed their sins to Watermark's pastor confidentially and that their behavior should not be made public.

Church officials say they are only following a process of church discipline outlined in the Gospel of Matthew and written into the church's bylaws.

"Basically, we're being sued because we're seeking to love 'John Doe' in accordance with the principles outlined by God's word," said the pastor, the Rev. Todd Wagner.

Neither church officials nor the pair's attorney would specify the behavior involved.

Leaders of the northeast Dallas church said they recently became aware that "John Doe," who joined the church more than a year ago, was "having some struggles in his walk with Christ," Mr. Wagner said.

Church elders began the process of "care and correction" described in Matthew: Confront the person one to one, then with several others, then "tell it to the church." At every step, the person is asked to stop the offending behavior.

In this case, the man refused the private interventions and said he was quitting the church, church officials said. But Watermark's bylaws say a member "may not resign from membership in an attempt to avoid such care and correction."

Watermark's next step would have been to send more than a dozen letters to people who know "John Doe" – half to Watermark members and half to members of other churches who know and have worked with him.

That's when the lawsuit was filed.

"The basis of the lawsuit was the church wanted to go outside of the church and the community at large, including potentially even their employers," said Jeff Tillotson, attorney for the man and woman.

They obtained a temporary restraining order April 28, preventing the church from releasing information about them.

But the order was dismissed May 5 by Associate Judge Sheryl McFarlin after Watermark's lawyers argued that it violated the church's right to freely exercise its religion.

The case is winding its way through appeals.

Mr. Tillotson said the case holds major implications for church members in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

"The typical notion of a Dallasite is that if you don't like a church, you can just leave, and that's that is apparently not shared by some of these churches," he said. "And then when you say I want to get off this merry-go-round, their response is you can't quit to avoid discipline."

E-mail jweiss@dallasnews.com and mgrabell@dallasnews.com

Watermark Community church says it relies on this New Testament passage to justify its policy of disciplining members:

"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Matthew 18:15-17

[Psykopath]

That is fucking insane. I hope (and believe they will) they win the lawsuit.

Those idiots are fucking with their work life and private lives as a whole. And they claim they can't leave the church?! Oh man, I forgot just how "tolerant" certain sects of Christianity can be... (as are many other religions)

[Dogmeat]

anybody stupid enough to "confess" to a priest deserves what they get ...

[GOB]

anybody stupid enough to "confess" to a priest deserves what they get ...

haha wow. pathetic.

[Dogmeat]

I'm sorry, but "Confession" is fucking retarded.

You're supposed to tell a priest everything you do wrong, thus feeding every perverted desire a man could possibly have in life.

And people act shocked priests molest children?

Huh?

The guy gets free live Penthouse Forum every fucking day and you're honestly gonna tell me he's not a pervert?

Fucking christ confession exists for the sole purpose of priests getting their rocks off, not because god wants you to do anything.....

Yet another prime example of organized relegion bastardizing faith.

[GOB]

and what does that have to do with this article?


you're a fucking retard, by the way.

[jonathan83]

I'm sorry, but "Confession" is fucking retarded.

one of the many reasons i'm not catholic

[Spectatrix]

I'm sorry, but "Confession" is fucking retarded.

You're supposed to tell a priest everything you do wrong, thus feeding every perverted desire a man could possibly have in life.

I may agree, but that has nothing to do with this article. This is not a Catholic church.... Catholic priests are bound by "the seal of the confessional" to not reveal anything that's confessed to them, even if the confession is about a serious law violation.

[pebkac]

"Basically, we're being sued because we're seeking to love 'John Doe' in accordance with the principles outlined by God's word," said the pastor, the Rev. Todd Wagner.

Is it just me or does anyone else think this guy is a douchebag?

[Spectatrix]

Is it just me or does anyone else think this guy is a douchebag?

I think the point of this thread is to point that out, actually.

[FORSAKENR320]

i'd like to know the actual history of the confession. not the religious reason, but the social reason.



i'm pretty sure it has something to do with keeping an eye on the social situation in smaller societies. we scoff at the idea of confessing our sins in this day, but you have no idea how much influence the catholic church had several centuries ago.

[pebkac]

I think the point of this thread is to point that out, actually.

You and your logic.

[Erik B.]

one of the many reasons i'm not catholic

Confessions is one of the many reasons that I am Catholic.

But as has been pointed out, this article is not about a Catholic church. The priest is bound to not reveal what is said in the confessional in the Catholic church.

What I'm trying to figure out is this: Did the couple come to the pastor and reveal the sins, or did the church "discover" that the couple was sinning and attempted a one-on-one intervention and began the process as laid out in Matthew? I mean, it's one thing to go to a priest/pastor in confidence and expect that to be held secret, but in a way, the church is obeying its faith by going through the steps as laid out in the Gospel.

Not saying it's right. Just trying to figure out the circumstances.

[Dogmeat]

god is a moist vagina

[Seeker]

Confessions is one of the many reasons that I am Catholic.

But as has been pointed out, this article is not about a Catholic church.  The priest is bound to not reveal what is said in the confessional in the Catholic church.

you mean so you can fuck, cheat, lie, steal, kill fetuses, and make fun of the mentally handicapped - confess it all on sunday and then repeat it all again the following week?

[Dogmeat]

you mean so you can fuck, cheat, lie, steal, kill fetuses, and make fun of the mentally handicapped - confess it all on sunday and then repeat it all again the following week?

That's what most of them do....

[Erik B.]

you mean so you can fuck, cheat, lie, steal, kill fetuses, and make fun of the mentally handicapped - confess it all on sunday and then repeat it all again the following week?

Technically, yes.

However, it is a sin in itself to have the mindset of "I'll do what I want because I can just go to confession later."

[Epic]

and confessing your sins is only part of it. you also have to ask for repentance and want to change, or at least that's part of "loving christ" and "seeking salvation" so intentionally sinning like that and thinking that you cna just confess and feel better about it is bullshit. Hell in catholicism guilt is part of repentance!

[Dogmeat]

think about how many sluts confess their senseless acts of drunken dicksucking to the priests...

i bet the priests jack off while this happens

[FORSAKENR320]

catholic:: how are you feeling?
guy:: pretty good
catholic:: THEN YOU MUST NOT BE LOVING CHRIST ENOUGH! SINNER!




catholicism is a chore, not a joyous celebration

[GOB]

catholic::  how are you feeling?
guy::  pretty good
catholic::  THEN YOU MUST NOT BE LOVING CHRIST ENOUGH!  SINNER!




catholicism is a chore, not a joyous celebration

wow, you're a moron.


and at least catholics repent. most other chrisitian denominations do whatever they want without a second thought, using their faith as an excuse for any fuckup they make. can't tell you how many times i was asked if i had been "saved" by someone whom i later saw sucking someone off, making fun of retarded people, or puking their guts out (not saying i don't do any of the previous, but i don't try to justify it).


just think of the sluttiest scumbag you know (guy or girl) and then see if the bible is their favorite book on facebook or has "god" as one of their interests. i can almost guarantee they're not catholic.

[GOB]

That's what most of them do....

again, you're an idiot.


"most" of them. what a close-minded shithead response. i'm sure you'll come back with some witty "guh, christians are the close-minded ones, derr" that most worthless agnostics use to justify their moronic comments.

[knucklehead]

god is a moist vagina

then it's safe to say you've never known God and never will

[FORSAKENR320]

quit trying to provoke a fight and look at your savior

[Dogmeat]

then it's safe to say you've never known God and never will

You're right, I haven't, and neither have you or any other so-called relegious person on this entire fucking planet, so stop claiming you have

[GOB]

quit trying to provoke a fight and look at your savior

haha, corn cob pipe. what a badass.

[Seeker]

the smoke from the pipe looks like testicles and a cock

[FORSAKENR320]

You're right, I haven't, and neither have you or any other so-called relegious person on this entire fucking planet, so stop claiming you have

he was calling you a hopeless virgin




i'm not saying you;re a virgin









just hopeless

[chook]

I may agree, but that has nothing to do with this article. This is not a Catholic church.... Catholic priests are bound by "the seal of the confessional" to not reveal anything that's confessed to them, even if the confession is about a serious law violation.

Thanks Spec, you know docterine even if you don't believe in it.

[Spectatrix]

Thanks Spec, you know docterine even if you don't believe in it.

I know it because I was a devout Catholic growing up. And then I went over to the Dark Side... lol

[chook]

you mean so you can fuck, cheat, lie, steal, kill fetuses, and make fun of the mentally handicapped - confess it all on sunday and then repeat it all again the following week?

Sometime your contrition may be activly stop doing what your sin is. Say if I was living with my girlfriend and we were not married, he would say the contrition is not prayer, but to move out.

[Erik B.]

and confessing your sins is only part of it. you also have to ask for repentance and want to change, or at least that's part of "loving christ" and "seeking salvation" so intentionally sinning like that and thinking that you cna just confess and feel better about it is bullshit. Hell in catholicism guilt is part of repentance!

It's called the sin of "presumption" to sin and say "it's ok, God will forgive me." You're right, though, about the repentance and the want to change. Granted, it's not always easy to change, but we're supposed to try.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
However, if a person enters the Sacrament with the intention of committing the sin later, then this person is not sorry for his sins and the sin will not be forgiven. (CCC 1494).

See, it's not as easy as people would make it out to be. You have to confess your sins with sincere regret for having committed them and with firm intention not to commit them again. It's not just a forgiveness drive-through.

catholicism is a chore, not a joyous celebration

That's a matter of opinion, really. I find it to be a very joyous faith.

[jonathan83]

and at least catholics repent. most other chrisitian denominations do whatever they want without a second thought, using their faith as an excuse for any fuckup they make.

protestants still repent...just to God, not to a man.

[GOB]

protestants still repent...just to God, not to a man.

well, i guess that's what makes the two different; catholics take guidance from someone who has totally devoted their lives to god, and protestants just think to themselves for like 43 seconds and they're totally cleansed and forgiven. i bet nothing feels better than for somebody to forgive themself everyday for the same thing because there's never any guilt!

catholocism teaches that you can't absolve your own sins. you can truly feel sorry for something you did, which is essential for forgiveness, but you can't forgive yourself... it's pretty much common sense. you can't absolve your own sins, it's something only god can do, which is through members of the clergy (yes, it's in the bible). again, i'm just going on what i've been taught.

[FORSAKENR320]

That's a matter of opinion, really. I find it to be a very joyous faith.

how can you feel like a wretched, guilty sinnful creature and be joyous? from the day you are born you are a sinner. you aren't even allowed to start with a clean slate.

[Erik B.]

how can you feel like a wretched, guilty sinnful creature and be joyous? from the day you are born you are a sinner. you aren't even allowed to start with a clean slate.

Because I believe that the grace and salvation that comes through the sacrements is a wonderful and joyous gift from God.

I mean, I can't really explain it any better than that. It's a faith thing, and one that I honestly don't know how to debate.

Like I said, it's an opinion of mine.

[FORSAKENR320]

Because I believe that the grace and salvation that comes through the sacrements is a wonderful and joyous gift from God.

I mean, I can't really explain it any better than that. It's a faith thing, and one that I honestly don't know how to debate.

Like I said, it's an opinion of mine.

i respect your beliefs, to each there own. i wasn't questioning them, just inquisitive. my experiance with catholicism, (well, all of the measily 7 months i tried to get involved in it) gave me the impression of what i said. it just seems that no matter how clean you are, you're still dirty, and nothing you can do will ever make you clean. seems mournful and dreary. and i don't like the concept that i'm a dirty stray dog in the ally, and that my god will one day pick me up and bring me out of the rain, but ONLY if i won't track my mud (sins) on the floor

[Erik B.]

i respect your beliefs, to each there own. i wasn't questioning them, just inquisitive. my experiance with catholicism, (well, all of the measily 7 months i tried to get involved in it) gave me the impression of what i said. it just seems that no matter how clean you are, you're still dirty, and nothing you can do will ever make you clean. seems mournful and dreary. and i don't like the concept that i'm a dirty stray dog in the ally, and that my god will one day pick me up and bring me out of the rain, but ONLY if i won't track my mud (sins) on the floor

Fair enough. Did you go through any educational things when you were "trying it out"? Really, that explained a lot to me.

For me, the guilt I would feel as a result of sinning would be there no matter what church I belonged to. A sin is a sin, and the bible lays those out for us pretty well, so Catholics and Protestants alike understand what a sin is. I personally don't see the guilt trip that so many claim that every Catholic is on.

[Spectatrix]

Yeah, Catholics aren't all about guilt-tripping. Honestly, the churches I've been to didn't put much emphasis on the sacrament of penance. I mean, yeah you were supposed to confess your sins on a regular basis, but the priest was never up there saying "confess your sins or you'll go to Hell!!!11!!!one!11"

[Seeker]

this is why all christians suck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4t9APdSG30

[Erik B.]

this is why all christians suck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4t9APdSG30

You make me laugh. Not because you make sense, but because you will do anything in your power to piss people off.

[chook]

protestants still repent...just to God, not to a man.

Inheritance of the apostles, and I believe its a protestant church that is having the issue.

[FORSAKENR320]

Fair enough. Did you go through any educational things when you were "trying it out"? Really, that explained a lot to me.

For me, the guilt I would feel as a result of sinning would be there no matter what church I belonged to. A sin is a sin, and the bible lays those out for us pretty well, so Catholics and Protestants alike understand what a sin is. I personally don't see the guilt trip that so many claim that every Catholic is on.

nah, didn't go for educational seminars. it's just i've tried out several different styles of worship, and none of them suited what i was comfortable with/ believed. the same way i dislike the guilt trip, i even more hate the hellfire and brimstone "YOU'RE GONNA DIE AND BURN TILL YOU DIE FROM IT!" approach of some other denominations

[impala454]

one church (that we dont even know which denomination) did something pretty dumb. ZOMG all christians are teh sux0rz now!

[chook]

one church (that we dont even know which denomination) did something pretty dumb. ZOMG all christians are teh sux0rz now!

It is the truth, Chuck Chuck Chuck!!





i just like typing my name!

[impala454]

Chuck!

[Divergent Realit...]

Chuck!

[chook]

Chuck!

[jonathan83]

Inheritance of the apostles, and I believe its a protestant church that is having the issue.

right. so from all 12 disciples, there are thousands "inheriting."
ok

This post has been edited by jonathan83: May 30 2006, 09:22 PM

[Erik B.]

right. so from all 12 disciples, there are thousands "inheriting."
ok

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at there.

[chook]

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at there.

lot more priest than the 12, but then

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
(Matthew 28:16-20)

sucks if you are a literalist

[Divergent Realit...]

lot more priest than the 12, but then

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.
(Matthew 28:16-20)

sucks if you are a literalist

espically if you like shrimp

or crabs

or eel

or octopus

or squid

[chook]

espically if you like shrimp

or crabs

or eel

or octopus

or squid

all good choices sir!