how am I stepping on your toes by believing in what I believe in? I don't really understand why you'd have the view that a religious person thinks they're better than you are. and the hate is directed almost solely at Christians. I just don't get it. what threatens you about our beliefs so much?

I don't have a problem with Christian people in general. Or religious people in general. I DO have a problem with people putting forth purely religious arguments in support of legislation. That having been said, I have no problem with logical arguments that can also be derived from religious teachings.

Let's take the post office example (and yes, JRock, the post office IS run by the US government). They're closed on Sunday. Was this originally motivated by religious sentiments? Yeah, probably, but you could also argue that postal workers deserve a day off just like the rest of us schmucks, and Sunday is as good a day as any. It's a weak argument, perhaps, but a semi-logical one nonetheless.

people don't hate christians because of legislation. pysex has the impression that we as christians believe we're better than everyone else. that doesn't come from legislation. I don't know where it comes from.

but let's say it does, what legislation is being/has been put forth purely on religious arguments? the best you guys could come up with is the post office. well they're not the only government institution closed on sundays, and sure as hell not the only business in general closed on sundays. you can go on assuming it was for religious reasons, or I could argue that it's probably because everybody takes that day off anyways, so that's why they chose it. but until someone comes up with the magic link to the legislation that says "The U.S post office shall be closed on Sundays for Christians", it's just a bunch of speculation.

Either way, the Christian hate that's so rampant is most definitely not caused because they don't get their electric bill and credit card offers on Sundays.

impala....for the love of all things good and just....my comment was not directed solely at Christians

i was raised Catholic and still consider myself to be Catholic but I just don't practice it

my point is that as a whole, Christians DO step on other people's toes (especially Catholics and Baptists)....and so do Muslims

you can't build a society solely on christian values and then consider that society to be free and equal...it doesn't work like that....i know that now, the government tries to maintian a thin line between church and state but it hardly works that way

the same thing in building a muslim state that preaches hate and violence against all other religion


MY POINT IS THAT RELIGION FUCKING BLOWS....

organized religion is a bane on civilized society....

people can't gather into one group without experiencing some sort of superiority

Cathryn named a few issues that do have proponents that argue exclusively from a religious standpoint. Here's a short list of things I can think of:

Gay marriage
Bigamy/polygamy
Sodomy (yes, I know these laws were struck down in 2003)
Intelligent design in public schools

I think you missed my questions

"how do we step on your toes?" IS the question


again, what example can you provide that our society is "solely based on Christian values"? the only reference to God I ever see are in two places (which I'm surprised no one has mentioned), the pledge of allegience, and "in God we trust" on money. and I don't see what impact either of these has on our daily lives.


but that's just it, you're not differentiating where you should be. it's a "muslim state" aka iraq, iran, etc, that is preaching violence and hate, not all muslims. what you're saying makes no sense. you see iran do something, and go "omg they're muslim, islam sucks religion sucks", when it should just be "omg iran sucks".

you guys are using religion as the scapegoat of the world's problems. let me ask you this: If by some strange event, all the Israelis decided to convert to Islam, do you really believe Iran would stop hating them and wanting to kill them?

and another question: If religion were to suddenly cease to exist, what precisely in your life would change for the better?

these aren't items that politicians who are religious are attempting to make illegal, they've ALWAYS been illegal, and others are attempting to make them legal. besides they're all also moral issues, which, religion or not people will have enormous differences in.

http://www.answers.com/topic/united-states-postal-service


The board is mostly appointed by the president, but they are not funded or controlled by any of the three branches. The senate, house, president, or supreme court don't tell them to close on Sundays. The Postmaster General and the board make all of the decisions and the USPS makes their own money through services rendered.

The Post Office also isn't closed on Sundays. Mail delivery doesn't happen on Sunday, but postal workers are still working behind the scenes.

How do we step on other people's toes?

I've been to Catholic mass many many times at many different churches. The priest almost always has some message of hate built into his sermon.

Terry Schiavo. People wanted her to die because she was a vegetable and eating away tax payer dollars (her family wasn't paying the bills anymore). Terry requested to not be put on life support. Her parents pleaded to Jeb Bush and President Bush to help her stay alive. There was a prayer session and communion of supporters to keep her alive. You don't think that the religious beliefs involved were stepping on other people's toes?

You don't think that saying "God bless America" and "God loves America" while bombing someon'e country isn't stepping on other people's toes?

Denying the right for someone to express their love for someone else simply because it doesn't follow your religious views isn't stepping on someone else's toes?

Not executing a convicted criminal that murdered 30 people because he found Jesus isn't stepping on someone else's toes?

Claiming that Christians are infidels and deserve a rotten death....isn't stepping on someone else's toes?

Taking away a certain product on the grocery shelf to make room for mhatza ball soup mix isn't stepping on someone else's toes?

Attempting to convert someone to Jesus because they had a shitty day...isn't stepping on someone's toes?

I don't like abortion. I think killing unborn babies is pretty fucking mean. My belief steps on the toes of those women who want to fuck around without protection and vacuum out the consequence.

The things we do in our life generally have some kind of impact on other people (whether it's good or bad). People believe what they believe in and difference of belief will always create conflict. We are destined to destroy ourselves over faith. Faith in a higher power that has an invested interest in our existence. Faith that what we believe is right and just. Faith that what we believe in is the only right way to believe.

Are you sure you're willing to give up EVERYTHING in this beautiful world for faith alone?



If religion hasn't been the basis for most of the world's problems then explain Sudan. Explain the Crusades. Explain the daily bombings in Middle Eastern countries. Explain why I can't go to Egypt without getting looks simply because I'm a white American (which automatically makes me Christian). Not all of Muslim preaches hate....but that doesn't mean they like us. Explain why Turkish Muslims hate Kurdish people. Explain why Shia Muslims hate Sunni Muslims. Explain why every act of violence over there has to be in the name of God. Explain why there are religions that require sacrifice of human beings for the Virgin Mary. Explain the age old conflict between Jewish people and Islam. Explain why Christians are better than that. Explain why we, as a Christian nation, have a major impact on how the world runs. Explain why in the old days people got their news, information, and education from the church. Explain why the religious leaders that we look up to and adore end up being just as human as we are.



Our country is based on Christian values. I don't know how you're going to argue against that. Making references to God on money has nothing to do with my point. I don't care if it says Jesus is the one and only love him...How we constructed our laws and governmental systems is based on a fundamental belief in Christian values. How can there be equality for all (since America is so big on equality and freedom) when a system was founded under one belief structure?



Oh and no...I didn't miss your questions. Your questions keep changing so it's pointless for me to answer them.

I like Charlie Brown, too.

what a stupid, blanket statement. you're full of shit. anyways... LOL well dude... you can't complain about a preacher's message when you choose to go see it!!


for having a prayer for a terribly ill person?? how the hell does that hurt anyone??!?!?


what?!!?


what law out there denies your right to express love for someone else??!? besides, that right has never been there in the history of our country. so you're going to say a law which has existed since long before you were born is stepping on your gay little toes?


what?


those people are doing exactly what you're doing, using religion as their scapegoat.


uh again... what?


nope. you're a crybaby if you really say this has any impact on your life, or that it happens very often at all.


but you just said you think killing unborn babies is sadistic, so that's your reason for being against, it. this has nothing to do with religion.


our laws and governmental system were created on the basis of keeping church separate from state, not based on the church. that was the whole fundamental idea. they didn't like living under a church ruled state (england). that's why we have the governmental system we have, we're a republic, democratic nation, where majority rules. if people who are also religious have the majority, then yes their views will have a large impact on policy. but it's people who are religious choosing the government, not the government choosing who should be religious. does that make any sense to you at all?

if you want to say religious people "step on your toes" and have an adverse effect on your life, let's see it. You get up, go to school/work, come home, pay your taxes, pay your bills, go do the things you want, buy the things you want, and I honestly don't see how some people who believe in God are having any effect on that. sure over in the middle east there's turmoil, but I'm guessing that the reason you wouldn't answer my question is because you already knew the answer, yes, the iranians would still hate the israelis if they converted to islam. and the same for every single other example you gave over there. are you really naive enough to believe that if no religion existed at all, that there would be no conflict?

but then again this argument didn't start because you were being slammed with bombs every day, it began because "religious people step on your toes". give an example of the terrible impact they've had on you today, or yesterday, or last week. PERSONALLY. what have they done so terrible to YOU to make you hate them so much?

Could it be that maybe I'm arguing for another side for the sake of it. It might benefit you some time to think dimensionally. I'm not a homosexual. I still go to church. Whether I believe in God one day or hate him the next I still fear Him.

You tend to assume a lot of things. I never said that conflict would end if religion didn't exist. But would we be on the verge of a mass world conflict if we didn't have a religious prejudice to begin with? If there wasn't a radicalist muslim state?

Whether there are or aren't laws against gay unions...we are still denying them the right to do so. And it will be like that because religion still has a large say in how we conduct politics. You're naive to think that it doesn't. It's like that all over the world.

Sure, religion doesn't have a direct effect on my daily personal life. I don't hate people. You apparently do. Is that an example Christian? To hate. One of the original Christian values is to love thy neighbor. Do you love your neighbors? Or do you have some prejudices that are (AND DON'T DENY IT) rooted in religious beliefs? I have prejudices that are rooted in religious beliefs. I quite honestly have a hard time living with Pebkac. Do I let that affect our relationship? No.

There have been decisions made and laws made purely on religious standpoints. Most of the shit is overturned but the fact that it still happens is enough.


By the way...stepping on someone's toes doesn't mean you have to do it literally. It's a saying just like sand in the vagina, ants in the pants, pants on fire....

Whatever you believe in, the person next to you may not. And making it a goal to push your beliefs will step on other people's toes.

http://bp2.blogger.com/_idzsaV6c7aM/RmybL9...-h/creation.jpg

This post has been edited by cmac: Jun 11 2007, 01:18 PM

hmm... ok you didn't, but you did say religion is the basis for most of the world's problems. you listed every current major conlifct that you could think of, and said religion was the reason. I think this makes no sense, as it's all simply blind hate. It's the same reason you still won't answer the simple question that I will asked: Do you think if the Israelis suddenly converted to Islam, that muslim countries would no longer hate them & bomb them?


our country is different than the rest of the world. I explained this in my last post, I suppose I can do it one more time. Religion does not have a say in politics. People who are religious are elected by those that are religious. Majority rules in our democratic country, so if it happens that the majority have certain beliefs, those will be reflected in our legislation. You act as though Bishop Jones down the street is waltzing into the state capital to present his bill on anti-gay marraige.


thank you. this is really all I wanted you to admit.


I'd love to see how you drew this conclusion.


I believe homosexuality is wrong. It's not a prejudice, because I judged it myself to be wrong. When I first learned of the concept, I thought it was wrong. My logical brain tells me it's wrong, and my religion tells me it's wrong. Does it mean I'm going to automatically hate someone because they're gay? No. So no, I'm not prejudice in the least.


haha ok so legislation doesn't even have to pass for you to get your panties in a wad about it.


uh... no shit sherlock


explain to me how you can "push" your beliefs on someone. I love this term. it makes absolutely no damn sense whatsoever. what is so absolutely terrifying to you about having someone come talk to you, and you telling them to go away? I get four f'n calls a day from people asking me to consolidate my student loans (which have now been consolidated for three years!). that's annoying as hell to me, but once I hang up the phone I continue about my business. I don't cry about it to others, or complain that the student loan people are ruining my life. gimme a f'n break and get a kleenex.