I guess that's the main spot where we differ in opinion then. I see that if we have a choice at all, that is free will.


well while I may not believe in past lives leading up to this one, I do believe you on the experiences you talk about. I have dreams every now and then that seem to come true at some point much later (like years later). They don't really direct me where to go or what choices to make though (as I don't really recall the dream until after the event takes place). I'm with you on those types of things, I believe lots of stuff in our lives happens for a reason. I could choose to take I-10 or 610 to go home when I leave here today. Usually I'll take a look at the traffic site, and whichever one is less busy I'll take. But they could both be green, and both be wreck free, and both be completely un-eventful drives home.

All I'm saying is, we have choices, both ones that matter and ones that don't. That is the textbook definition of "free will". I think that's another area where we're kinda arguing apples and oranges. You're more along the lines of not having control over the general direction of your life as meaning you do not have free will, which I can actually agree with. I'm more looking at free will as your ability to be presented with a choice and make it, which we all obviously have.

and renegade: so from what you're saying, free will only exists in certain situation? if you hand a "good" person a gun they have no choice, they cannot shoot. but a psycho could?

and with a t-shirt, it's not the one you pick or how you pick it that i'm talking about. it's the fact that you have some to choose from, and you ultimately choose one. by choosing a shirt you have made a decision. no one else chose that shirt but you.

Renegadepeon's explanation is much less looney toons than mine.

so hey, one of those "things" happened just now. can anyone explain the randomness of this?

when I was 17 me and my best friend were hunting varmits with .22s and he shot a barn owl in flight. we knew that is illegal, and frankly, just wrong as owls are the raddest birds alive...but hey it was a kickASS shot.

I was sitting here and thought about that owl...and looked it up. here is the email I sent him (he's in amarillo, I'm in dallas, we haven't talked in a week or so)...
_____________________

From:
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2007 3:20 PM
To:
Subject: horned owl

so after much consideration, I've decided that crappy things that happen to you are karma from shooting that horned owl.

a bird taking off in flight with a rifle is a great shot. but I dont know if the powers that be are as stoked and impressed as I was...

his reply:

It’s wild you said that as we talking about Mcbride Canyon and Lake Meredith when your e-mail came…and I was saying how we used to hunt down there which of course brings that up….fkng crazy shit man……

If I ever started a skate company or band ……….’Shredded Gnar Owl’………..’
____________________

coincidence? I don't know shit, but I do know there's far more going on than what joe schmoe perceives...

he made the wrong decision that day. karma is how he likes to deal with bad shit, so that's how I talk with him. I think there's some karma going on, but I think it's more about making a wrong choice and that putting you on the wrong path, even if just for a short moment in time.

oh for sure man. I know there have been tons of incorrect choices I've made that have had a negative impact on my life. there's also plenty of incorrect choices I've made that have had a positive impact on my life.

but there are choices that have zero affect on your life. would you agree with that?

ULTIMATE IMPALA TRUMP CARD:

You say computers have no free will, and that god has a plan.

prepare to be blown away in...3...2...1:

The Cylons have a plan.

And they have free will.

Don't let her fool you, she has a degree in Philosophy.

It's kinda like asking Rainman baseball statistics, then asking him how much a candy bar costs.

this thread reminds me of that stupid ass fucking hippi song about free will or some shit that one dumb hippi bitch sang.

yeah, but what if he genuinely desired to purchase a gold, mesh tank top, but didn't because of society's influence (i.e. teasing, abuse)

the choice was his yes, but his decision was bound by the restraints of society.

edit: if you believe in an omnipotent God, then it stands to reason that the being that created the universe is also omniscient. You make your choices but God already knows what they will be and their ultimate outcome, so your will is not genuinely free because God created you and knows how you will decide. Your choices are affected by the traits God gave you.

what's more perhaps he bought a lucky charms t-shirt because he heard a commercial for lucky charms in his sleep. Was that his choice or was he influenced to make that choice (i.e no free will)

This post has been edited by griseyeux: May 25 2007, 06:57 PM

this is all well and good, the whole discussion about what a choice is and whether or not we can make them.

I think something interesting about this conversation is how some people are arguing about the individual, while others argue about the universal. hmmm...two different arguments perhaps and thus the difficult of using one to negate the other.

I'm not a christian, or even a christian slater, however i think that if we believe in free will, what do we make of the whole "judas betraying jesus" part. I mean fuck, the poor guy was actually told by God and Jesus "hey, its your job to make sure Jesus makes it into the hands of the Jews" and all this about it being ordained, destiny, had to happen, etc...

free will is a no, and the bible points it out in that respect. Christ didn't have a choice but to die on the cross, Daddy said so.





I also think that there is one more distinction worth bringing out. Really more of a question of are you living like you have free will or are you living with it? just because i don't believe in free will, it doesn't mean that i don't make "choices" and "decisions" and take pride in my accomplishments. so i live like i have free will because its easier than wallowing in existential angst all day.

*wallowing in Nihilistic angst.

in response to woody's sperm theory.

well sir, that would be to assume that sperm has consciousness, and that the consciousness i have is in some way the same as the consciousness of that sperm. depends on what we mean by "you"

what i am stating here is not really conception or birth, its existence. we are put here in this cosmic game, perhaps by some god figure and told "welcome! i brought you here! here are some rules and suffer with a smile!" some may argue "maybe you were given a choice to exist, you just can't remember it" well then in my opinion that's a non-issue because our lack of ability to remember a chance to choose is more reasonable than you to play the what if game with me about what might have happened. if we do that, then what if I am god? Is that free will?

one answer...live fucking hard and enjoy it all

fixed

I'm a firm believer in chaos theory.

Everything that we do is predetermined and ordered. It's just influenced by so many factors that it appears to be chaotic.

yes...free will