You're not making sense. When you recieve an input, then give an output, that is the process of you making a choice.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/choose

you recieve the possibilites as input, and your output is a selection. that's what a choice is!

But the computer didn't choose its output. The output was dictated by someone independent of the computer.

you don't get it. it's a plan. to think you are the master of your universe is akin to thinking there is only life on earth.

very haughty.

there is more going on in the universe than what you perceive.

right, which is why computers don't have free will

haughty? take a look in the mirror. this from the guy saying I don't get it because I'm "too early" and acting like you have it all figured out. how old are you anyways, mr "i have it all figured out and you don't"?

i do not believe i'm the "master of my universe"

i do believe in God, and believe he has a master plan for my life

i do believe everything happens for a reason

i do know what the definition of a choice is, and that i make them every day. making choices is free will. i'm not talking about ruling over my own destiny, i'm talking about what the simple definition of free will and making your own decisions is. just because something is pre-determined doesn't mean you're not making a decision.

look at it this way, God knew what choices you were going to make before you made them, he didn't make the choices for you. I don't understand how you can claim to be a Christian, and yet completely disagree with the notion of free will. God created us to have free will, so that we may choose to worship him and follow his plan for our lives.

My hatred for the Lubbock City Council is def free will.

it's not about age...it's about how many times you've gone through all this. it's not a haughty statement...it's about as haughty as saying "hey your hair is black". when I say too early, I'm saying your early on in your cycle though all this. my sister is too, as are many people very important to me.

and quit getting so pissy. if you want to think I am being mean that is on you. the fact that you're not getting what I'm saying is what make me believe you are early on.

I'm far from having it all figured out.

but I have done this a few times I know that much. how else would you explain that going to new places and knowing exactly where I was going and what I was going to see there or encounter? knowing before I go in if shit was going to be positive or negative? how else can you explain recognizing someone you've never met before and them being significantly important to you for the rest of your life? how can you explain never having read something, yet as you read it you know what it is going to say almost word for word?



that's the key difference here in my opinion. yes God has us make our own choices, but in the end there is only one choice to make. that is not free will.

one caveat...I suppose you could explain the daily (really...every day) experiences I have as some sort of ESP thing...but that seems like a way way too far out possibility. I find it much more plausible to think we keep doing it til we get it right (right as in what God wants).

I dont believe in Free Will in the sense that we have complete power to chose between two options without any influence from outside factors. Everything in this world is very ornate and exact. Our "choices" are a result of outside factors, hence they are determined. We are programmed to do what we think will make us happy. Any thought, action, consequence can be traced back to a physical scientific law which is not altered and can also be traced back, because it too is determined. I like to think of this subject in terms of dominoes. When a stream of dominoes are arranged in a certain way, the first one can be knocked over, which will cause the next to fall, and the next and the next and so on. The dominoes are acted upon by each other, unless there is a flaw in the arrangement of the dominoes. Compare this to people. We are acted upon by outside factors. What determines my actions and thoughts is what happens outside of my body physically, and then inside my body physically.

I suppose it is possible to stretch the meaning of free will to mean "the ability to do that which will make us happy". If we were to define it this way, then yes free will does exist. The problem is, it is in our human nature to chose what will make us happy. Again, determined; but yes we have the ability to do things that will bring happiness and pleasure. I don't believe in completely selfless acts, which does not downplay the greatness of what some people do (military servicemen, martyrs, etc) but those actions are done for a reason. Martyrs died for their beliefs and the idea that there would be a heavenly reward. Servicemen find pride (happiness) in serving and defending their country.

Alternatively, though, I absolutely despise the argument that free will doesn't exist because God already knows what is going to happen. I shouldn't have to explain why this is a poor argument.

jessica's smart?

wtf!?

ftw!

shocking, isnt it?

Now put 2 and 2 together...


I've made this argument in the past and I'll make it again, because it's something to do.

There are two things I want to seperate: Having Choices and Making Choices. The first I will talk about in paragraph 1 is Making Choices.

My argument with the computer is that you cannot Make Choices. You do not have the ability to make a choice any more than a computer does, and here's why: You can process information, much like a computer. And then you can make a "decision" on what to do because of that information, much like a computer (in my previous example: output 'A'). But never in that process do you nor the computer Make a Choice (keep reading!). You output based on what you received as an input. Just like a computer. But the differnce between us and a computer is the complexity of the inputs and the fact that we do not know beforehand the output (well, one could argue a computer doesn't know the outputs either until it's time to output), except in very simple situations. Because a computer reacts on situations that are simple, we are able to see that a computer does not have free will. But because our inputs, processes, and decisions are usually not nearly as simple, it is difficult to see that we are much like a computer.

And if a computer does not have free will, then neither do we.

The second is Having Choices. In part of your argument you believe we can Make Choices because we have the ability to process information and make a decision (give an output). I may have to explain why I think this is wrong again, but it's ok, I have all day. The second part of your argument is that we have Free Will because we Have Choices. In the past, I argued why having choices does not mean you have free will. If I gave you a gun in public and told you to shoot me, you would not do it. You have the choice, but because you are intelligent enough to know there are major future consequences to complying, you will never choose to do so.

Having the choice of A, B, and C but only having the ability to choose A does not mean you have free will, if free will is having the ability to choose any A, B, or C.

living in a vacuum (no outside factors) you'd have no choices to make.

if you're in a isolated forest, your choices are going to be determined by your environment; weather, supplies, survival, suicide, food, etc. so it takes outside factors for a choice to be available. we respond to what surrounds us. i don't think that they are always pre-determined, but i believe we have little control over some of them (e.g., weather).

do we make choices that will being us happiness, sometimes. sometimes we make choices in hopes that the outcome will being us happiness.

i love how everyone has ignored both of my arguments!

but this is great reading, keep it up everyone!

I just responded to the part where you paged me

Did you make the choice to enter the egg when you were a sperm?